Bill Ottman

00:00five four three two one legit hello bill hey man what's going on here you are here yes with a book you got a book of I gotta come prepared I mean yeah I'm trying to write I'm trying to get back into handwriting for people don't know bill is the CEO and co-founder of minds.com and we've been going back and forth through email and you got hoax by some dude who said he was Joey Diaz it did happen he really believes like Joey's been on my network I'm like hmm he was imagining me messaging in Joey's voice yeah basically cloning it like there's weird people out there yeah well that's not hard to do yeah you know yeah watched enough Joey they still just cloning his weeds yeah yeah yeah yeah every Monday morning or so there's a there's a tweet about someone needs to suck your dick that's they need to suck your dick you need to let them know that's a on the regular um what's

00:59the notes man just some rambling from this morning yeah yeah important so it's actually the first thing that I ever in in this notebook I've not been doing and writing much at all in the last year's probably mostly digital which is not good because I actually majored in English yeah you definitely lose your ability to write words it's funny I tried writing in for whatever reason I write mostly in all caps you know because I just mostly just write notes but I tried writing with like lowercase letters and then I tried writing in cursive and my cursive is like it's almost like I have to relearn it yeah I was finding just like trailing off at the end of certain words but I blend it all together you what I blend it all together with capital in lowercase Oh why you do that I mean well just as a normal person would I thought you're just mixing them up randomly no no okay

01:54so I did write my college thesis in all lowercase well i heiped we protesting yeah kind of it was stupid it's like a cool move right I'm not gonna use any uppercase who cares man there's weird like postmodern theory about capitalization and then what I was talking about I got a little bit indoctrinated at UVM really yeah yeah they're like they this one class it was called credit what is which one is you what is UVM Vermont Vermont yeah Oh Vermont it's like yeah super social justice II right mm-hmm and and cave with good intention yeah yeah nice chrome up there too mm-hmm nice folks but like this one class was called critical theory and we had to watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer and a pie like Marxist theory to it to show how like it's the rise up of the lower class it's like you're forced to write these papers in like a certain way yeah yeah well they trying to prove

02:56class division class division yeah in Buffy the Vampire Slayer it's there there's like books and books written about Buffy the Vampire Slayer why it's Marxism yeah come on not kidding really yep what do they have to say it's a mate I mean I'm sure you're aware of James Lindsay and Peter Bogosian and and what is it the Solon's name yes Helen didn't meet her unfortunately the grievin Studies hoaxes that they submitted a bunch of fake studies to these journals and not only got reviewed but got lauded and praised for their academic scholarship yeah I think that stemming from this guy so cool who first trolled a lot of the postmodern journals and he was the Fritton so it's called a SoCal hoax mm to do that kind of trolling it's hard to figure out who's who right it's hard to figure out what's the hoax I got tricked by that there's this one thing called the post-modernism generator online it's

04:00a computer that writes articles that puts all of this fancy language together and I someone sent it to me and I showed it to my teacher and I was like oh this is this is saying something pretty interesting but it was it was horse neighing yeah yeah what do you uh you know what do you make of all this hope sing you've been hoaxed twice then you've just admitted in the first minute of the show I mean I think that you sort of have to have the right to hoax to hoax yeah to be wrong mm-hmm to mess up well that's not messing up that's deceiving people true but you kind of have the right to do that to you kind of the right to troll yeah you know I'm the right to impersonate but I have the right to get trolled and be wrong well you don't have the right to impersonate like you can't have a verified account pretend you're Joey Diaz oh no of course not but harmless

04:51trolling like that guy did to you isn't that kind of like part of freedom yeah yeah yeah like taking down disinfo from social networks because it's wrong that doesn't make sense it it also depends doesn't make sense I mean like if someone is purposely okay let's say that you find some Chinese bot that's purposely disseminating incorrect and negative information about maybe a potential presidential candidate let's pick one tulsi gabbard there they're disseminating fake news about her and you know for sure that it's fake you know for sure who this I don't know how you know but you know for sure who the source of it is you don't think that should be taken down I think that if it's illegal it should be taken down if it's illegal yeah mmm okay what it was just lies then that could be illegal I'm not a lawyer well I I'm trying to position the network or just like

05:52advocate for other networks to take more of a neutral stance there's this cool thing called the Manila principles which the Electronic Frontier Foundation wrote with a bunch of other Internet freedom groups which is talking about how digital intermediaries should shouldn't be making these subjective decisions about what's getting taken down and should require a court order now with a DNS provider or you know something less content focus playing DNS - people don't know we don't like I don't know my name so yeah so we'll explain what that is it's like where you buy domain and you know but for Soulja know we're hosting tons of content so it's harder for us because we see illegal content in it we should proactively take some of it down if we it's illegal right but at the same time you know it's just slippery well I follow quite a few people who have I want to say they have hoax

06:46accounts but they have parody accounts and they and you know a lot of people read into it wrong and think they're being honest and argue with them like there's this progressive dad guy on Instagram you follow him no exactly shocking he's hilarious when I follow to that 30 foot like I followed quite a few of them there was a guy who's the wrong skin guy who was saying he was born in the wrong color skin that he's transracial and he would make these ridiculous arguments about it and el wick what was his name he apparently is a comic just thinking that this sort of star a couple I don't know the moment they had to do it but let's say four years ago a lot of those troll accounts had to sort of say were not this person for instance the one main one I follow is now it's known as not Bill Walton he tweets funny sports jokes all night long after like what's on TV

07:35mm-hmm as though he's Bill Walton like in Bill Walton Oh like at some point he had to put in the name like this is not Bill Walton but still has quite a few followers and he's still digging he still gets the jokes out but that's for me yeah well what's your stance on people who make accounts of your stuff put it out there well I have a lot of them you know there's a ton of them some of them actually do good stuff like they make little clips and they put those clips online and it's actually it's good it's good for people enjoy the show they get a little one-minute snippet of things and then some of them just will pretend to be me and contact people and try to book them on the show which is really weird yeah I've had that but you know I mean who is that is that a 16 year old kid in Indiana I mean who is that it's a it's odd it's but it's overall like get

08:24past my own personal feelings because because it's about me it's interesting this is the you know this this strange new ground that we're covering you know I mean we've been discussing this ad nauseam on the podcast lately that essentially we've been dealing with 20 years of this and in those 20 years it's changed radically I mean what it is it's become something completely different it's become something that changes public opinion on things overnight it's become something where you can distribute information from you know person to person about some you know a huge international news event you could get all of your information from Twitter whether it's what happened in Venezuela or what you know anywhere there's something in the world you your people are turning to social media almost before their turn anywhere you're looking you know I when I hear about

09:20something almost always before I even google it I almost always go to Twitter and check Twitter and you know and see what's going on and she touch that go it DuckDuckGo have you heard of that one no what's up it's like a privacy focused search engine it's like pretty much the only privacy alternative to Google it's like this idea that we say I'll just google it right why do we I mean our whole process has been to like purge proprietary surveillance tools from our company and I've been trying to do it myself like getting on Facebook getting off Twitter getting off Instagram it's just like they're so abusive to everybody and it's like there's brilliant people work there I mean Instagram is such a well designed out yeah I mean beautiful but so what do you think is abusive about it particularly there's start with Twitter they're all the same they're all the same yeah do you think

10:15they're all the same because they're all gigantic businesses yeah and they're all the same because none of them share their source code and they all spy on everybody and they don't show you what is happening behind the scenes they don't show you what the code is doing so like in that in that note I wrote to you the other day it's like it's I compared to like food transparency you know 50 years ago nobody thought about that and then 20 years ago everyone's like I don't want to know what's in my food why but why wouldn't you want to know what's in your apps yeah I mean it's super sketchy what they're doing but how so look what's super secure you don't know but we know that they're spying on everyone in tracking you everywhere you go they're targeting things at you based on physical location browser history even when you're not on those web sites some of their following around where

11:05you're going in the internet right and so some people accept that for this free search engine with free email and things along those lines they set accept the fact that a certain percentage of what they're doing is not going to be private or at least their searches are not going to be probably like save you search are you thinking about buying it cheap and you search jeeps you look at you know 2019 Jeep and then all the sudden all your Google ads are about jeeps right they're like we know we know you're thinking about Jeep bill and I don't think that that makes people want to spend more time on Google and Facebook what do you think it does do you think it freaks them out I think that we're just numb to it and so we accept it yeah I think it's more than yeah and so there's all different layers of like what we use with your browsers your apps your operating system your

12:00food your you know government your energy like all of this technology has code right that's associated with it so and when you open up your computer when you sign into a browser when you open up an app you are empowering that app that's how the apps of the world become huge monstrous corporations this because we all use them every day right so if you switch from you know oh at Mac OS to like gnu/linux or like Debian Ubuntu if you use brave or Firefox if you you know DuckDuckGo is actually proprietary which is annoying but they are very privacy focused and then there's apps there's mines there's all sorts there's other open-source decentralized social networks out there that we can potentially Fedder a twith there's really cool new interesting protocols like that and ipfs that are like more torrent style back-end so there's actually no servers in a giant warehouse

13:00like Facebook and Google it's more it's fully peer-to-peer hmm and we're trying to balance it because it's not like decentralization equals good and centralization equals bad but like you know in order to get a sweet app like Instagram style you need servers to like process video and so the tech is still sort of immature in the fully peer-to-peer like you know Bitcoin style internet but we're definitely getting there and I just think it's important for people to use things that are transparent to them and respecting our freedom yeah I think one of the problems with these giant companies is that once they become big you kind of use them as a default and it's very difficult to get people to communicate with you off of them you know it's it's so hard to say hey man I'm launching this new social media app I would imagine you could speak to this I'm launching this new

13:50social media app and I want you to join it people like but I'm already on Facebook I'm already on Google I'm Ernie on Instagram I don't want to do that man it's too much texture and we make it a million times harder for ourselves because we're not scooping into people's contacts and you know taking all their information or not we're minds okay so like when you give your address book to an app who does that every most apps you gotta be an you know no but when you say oh I want to find my friends who are on this app and you share your contacts you know supposed to do that you're not supposed to do that yeah but most people do and you know your friends didn't give you permission to give Facebook their phone you do that I probably used to like seven eight years ago and everybody don't do it anymore I always say the same thing when it pops up get the out of here that's

14:40always what I say would you like to share your your contest get the out of here no you can't have my contacts you I know what you're doing it Facebook is a weird one man it's so it's such a sneaky one you know Facebook and you know like all this the congressional hearings and the inner workings of it all and they're the the fact that it profits off of outrage so it wants people to argue like the the AI the computer learning specifically wants people to have like contentious debates about things because that keeps their eyes focused on the website and if your eyes are focused on Facebook you know then those Facebook ads are very valuable it's really fascinating that I think the outrage is unavoidable any network it's more you know are you gonna are you gonna take down they're taking down outrage Tom yeah sure so it just seems so inconsistent and subjective how they're applying I mean

15:44even just yesterday I think some journalists got yes from Facebook who air the story yeah yeah let me I'm gonna send this to you Jamie because it's a really crazy one because they wanted her to show who her funding sources were and I didn't even know that there was an area where you could show that so it's almost like they're making this up as they go along yeah Kyle kolinsky sent me this today I'm gonna send this to you right now Jamie hang on one second hold on I'm very quiet unfortunately this is an audio show but his live air yes not dead air hmm yeah okay buddy I just sent it to you okay Facebook's suspended in the now tweets page at the behest of CNN and the US government funded think tanks says we had almost four million subscribers did not violate Facebook rules were given no warning and Facebook isn't responding to us so yeah what is what was the what it

16:48would actually started this off I mean who knows they don't communicate with anyone they've been banning legit accounts for years they you cannot even send two minds commlink through facebook Messenger right now it's blocked what yeah what if you post in the newsfeed it says careful this could be an unsecured website oh just I clicked on a link from TMZ yesterday and got the same thing from on twitter twitter said this might be malicious there's spam there could be from minds knows from TMZ link it was clicking this like this story is on TMZ here doesn't see the rest of the story so they're trying to keep you from going to TMZ yeah I don't know why is the first time I've ever seen that huh it's probably caught up in some algorithm and I sent an actual written letter to Facebook about it obviously don't cut back and there's no Hilo written letter you wrote it with our recipe no now that

17:43I mean cool I sign it with ink but really we gotta know cuz our lawyer said you know that actually proves that you sent them something with some sort of diligence but there's there's just no recourse it's they're lost so explain so if someone is trying to say on Facebook master hey you should go check out mines com it won't let you post that link no and what is their excuse they don't tell you now so is it because you're a competing social media network I don't know I don't want to get into point I don't know you don't know I'm not gonna say just know that it does yeah yeah you don't know why it does but you know and they're calling us unsecure and I'm pretty sure that Facebook got hacked you know they compromised everybody's data like you want to talk about unsecure there's no more unsecured site that exists it is kind of funny right I mean after those hearings and after all

18:44the the Russia stuff yeah it's um it is kind of funny calling somebody else unsecured yeah they're insecure Mark Zuckerberg is very insecure he's also stupid rich he he seems like he's too rich like he up like he's they're sipping water like a robot trying to figure out what the he's doing with this life I think that they're scared because they know they've betrayed everybody and so it's hard to get them to speak you know it's interesting with with Dorsey here because I you know him credit for speaking but the fact is that he's not answering the question well he's bringing somebody else in to answer the questions in the next go-round and so that should be very anything he actually didn't know the answer to those questions I think he probably doesn't know all the specifics because he's a CEO of not one but two different corporations he's busy and also were truth but true but I think that

19:40when we look at the policy that exists on these networks like he is in control of the policy to large degree there's a bore I don't know there's a decision-making process but he has a large voice okay I don't know how large his voice is I assume that's probably true but one of the things we did detail on the podcast with Tim Poole was how he wasn't the CEO for quite a long time fired and then rehired it yeah yeah so obviously there's some contention there's some issues and you know there's a lot of money involved in these things and I think that plays a giant part and how they decide to make decisions and but do you think that an advertiser in reality doesn't like say you're an advertiser and you want to advertise your computer ok and there's a video on YouTube that is about something controversial does it actually make sense for that advertiser to not show their product on that

20:33controversial video don't they want to sell computers well it depends I mean if the controversial videos are about how Jews are evil and you have this video about Jews being evil and then you know you're like by Razer computers come on that's right but do you think that people actually I can understand not wanting to support certain types of content and maybe advertisers feel like they're supporting that content by advertising next to it but I also don't think that people when they're watching a controversial video on the Internet say oh my gosh you know this advertiser is completely out of line for being next to this controversial thing III don't think that's a healthy direction to move okay that's one way to look at it another way to look at it is if you are a giant company that sells things let's say your Toyota and you're selling Tundras you don't want your Tundras to

21:27be associated in any way with something that you might think is negative it's their prerogative if they're paying for advertising they can kind of decide this is one of the things that's leading YouTube in specific and I've had but a ton of conversations about this there it's leading them specifically to try to de monetize things that could be considered distasteful or insensitive or controversial and it's very frustrating to content creators when you talk to them they're essentially saying that they need to do better and that their tools are very blunt that they don't really have the correct computer learning tools to figure out what is offensive and why and there's a human review system which is very weird and we've run into that many times where like we'll have like a podcast will they say Tom Papa who's an uncontroversial fantastic stand-up comedian and it's like demonetised and

22:22then we're like why what happened and then we go what the can we talk about we didn't talk about anything crazy and it's really damaging for brands when it gets to Montez right away because it's that initial time period that generates the most revenue yeah so when you have to go back and do it I mean so I agree with that but so we built a tool that's like a peer-to-peer advertising tool so it's not there's two options you can say you earn crypto for your contributions and then which Kryptos do you support we have an ethereal based token but we're gonna support all of them so what is it a theory on based token so it's an ER c20 token what does that mean it means that we basically reward people for all of their activities okay so let's say if Jamie's posted on mines and people love his posts he gets rewarded in some yeah how much how much again well Tobar one token will give you a thousand

23:16impressions oh so you it were not focused on like oh you're gonna make money from this wait that's not what we're saying one token will give you a thousand impressions or you get a thousand impressions from you get a token from 1,000 impressions one when you use a token to advertise on mines oh you get a thousand impressions when you boost your posts with it so wait a minute if you use the crypto you use a token you guarantee views yeah that's weird isn't it why well you're guaranteeing people see something well we when you boost it it gets fed to people's newsfeed chronologically right I say so there's just a backlog so sort of like when Instagram has those sponsored posts except we're not spying on people to when we send them Instagram spies on people - yeah I don't know man I'm stupid help me out it's yes they do and the thing is we just don't know

24:13so this is where free and open source software is just essential like the big networks there's no excuse for them not to be sharing their software right it's like when you're a public forum on that scale the community just has a right to know what the algorithms are doing so you think that they're not sharing their software because their software is encoded and designed to spy on you and extract information and sell that information partially like when Jamie gives up your contacts when he signs up for an app he says yes you can get access to all my contacts there's a lot of reason and they don't want people to compete with them like anyone could actually take all of our code and make their own social network and compete with us they could set up on their own servers and we encourage that that's what like the feta verse is called that's what Elon Musk does with Tesla all of his electric

25:05patents for electric cars I think that he opened up the patents I don't think if he he opened sourced all the the code of the car but he's definitely in moving in the right direction of like he wants to build the market yes and he also wants to save the world I mean he legitimately has this any else house shitload of money he's got enough blowing yeah that's I think that's a big factor with those guys but don't don't you think that it's almost like it's gonna help whatever network does that oh he's more transparent stop spying on people is more community run and evolved wouldn't that be the network that you would think humanity would want to stick with in the long term like wouldn't that be a good move of that yes and no for the average person what are they losing when they get on Facebook or Google what do they what's bad what happened other legs are going

26:00down everybody's legs are going down and that makes everyone very sad what do you mean well the algorithms you're only reaching 5% of your own followers organically on Facebook now and I'm they're starting to change the chronological feed on Instagram too and they know that this causes depression and they're still doing it because they know that the you know they're they think they're better at showing you what you want to see than you are and they want to make money from it what do you mean by they know that this causes depression they've done studies about mental health in relation to actually Facebook exposed like five years ago for doing a secret study on like a few million users where they were injecting both positive and negative content into the newsfeed and they proved that they could affect people's moods this was with Princeton there's a huge backlash and they're like

26:53oh sorry whoops right but this isn't of injecting negative or positive content this is just moving these images or these posts around so that less people see them there's two different topics there the basic newsfeed on facebook is now a mysterious conglomeration of thousands of variables which we don't know and but additionally like a few years ago they were exposed for having been experimenting with people's brains that's right I remember that now I remember that now that that's right yeah I remember thinking like wow that's kind of creepy there's depending on the people that are on their site and they're not telling these people they're experimenting on yeah but do you I mean if they're trying to make it better do you think that they're really that's a factor that it actually could I mean how does it cause depression if they're just if your images or your posts are not being seen

27:54as by as many people have you talked to kids posting on social media and their reactions to how many likes they're getting they get very very concerned well that seems like more of a problem with that it is both it's not it is on both sides being addicted to likes as some sort of a you know it's a weird doping yeah right it's not healthy and no we need to learn to not care about that but I think that the core purpose of a social network is to subscribe to someone and see their stuff yeah and when people subscribe to you they see your stuff right so when you spend years building up a following on social media and say you burn a hundred thousand powers or something and then suddenly the network says mmm nah no your friends can't see that anymore that's not cool and and even to like Twitter's default newsfeed is no longer chronological you have to click it to go

28:59chronological and then it defaults back to their weird algorithm thing so we're saying look 100% organic chronological raw forever as default and then if you want to curate you know algorithms or have recommended stuff come in as an alternative fine but that is the core purpose of social media is to connect with people that follow you and the other way what do you think the purpose is like why do you think Facebook would decide to have things not in chronological order and only be seen by 5% of your followers like what would be the benefit in that for them revenue revenue how so how does that generate revenue they just know that they can keep you on the app better if you have less likes know if your your stuff seen by less people it doesn't make sense that's a good point it sort of works both ways I think that they think they know the people that you're gonna react to the most so as a

29:56consumer when you're getting that content you know the algorithms are showing you what you typically like have you noticed that I'm really not paying much attention but I believe you so yeah for creator it's hurting creators people who post are getting hurt people who are sitting there just scrolling they're the ones who are really getting you know addicted more so with the algorithms so how are the people that are posting getting hurt they're gonna hurt because their stuff is being seen by less people yeah because it's not chronological and it's not organic because it's curated huh but aren't they doing it because they think it's gonna be a better and an experience it's more conducive to your life that's what they say what do you think they're doing it for then they're doing it because they have studied through looking at the data how to keep people on the app more right and that

30:49way is to give them I say if I Google or if I look at muscle cars on Instagram now if I go to my search it's all muscle car stuff so that's what it is they say oh he likes that so we're gonna we're just gonna give him a lot of that and I think that's okay as an alternate of feed or to put that somewhere I just think the core feed always needs to stay pure hmm because otherwise you're just down the slippery slope again and understand it's just feeding there they're injecting things into your head that you didn't ask for right and they're doing it because they want to keep you around yeah that makes sense um how many different companies are subscribing to that is it seems like all the big ones we're saying are curating and moving things around and all the big ones have an algorithm that's designed to keep you onboard right mm-hmm and that's okay to pursue I think

31:41there's really cool things you can do with AI and machine learning and algorithms that is really beneficial but it's just taking away people's reach when they have worked years and years to achieve it it's not okay do you think that this is this marriage between something that is this social media network that's designed to allow people to communicate with each other and then commerce like this business like how do we maximize this business how do we get more profit out of this business how do we get these people to engage more and then they start monkeying with the code and screwing with what you see and what you don't say you think that's what's happening yeah but in the short term it's probably working but in the long term they're betraying everybody's trust it has to be more of a consent based system mm-hmm so you know at least give people well it should be opted out by

32:30default and fine give me messages to opt in so that you can show me certain things but this whole force forcing people into surveillances it just has to stop it's it's super scary house it's super scary to you it's just too much power hmm yeah it's too much power for something that supposed to be silly right like what was Facebook supposed to be supposed to be some silly thing that you just can communicate with friends it was but from the beginning all of these none of these networks have ever really been about the people of the networks it's always been closed source since the inception so but then you look at open networks out there you have Wikipedia a totally open source community Ryan granted they have there choose with moderation fine but it's a top ten website in the world it's totally open source Creative Commons content incredible human achievement

33:28Bitcoin open-source money WordPress even is an open source CMS system that is like powering 25% of the Internet so why wouldn't that happen with social media it should I mean this is where everyone's hanging out so we should all sort of collectively even own it we did a an equity crowdfunding round so like thousands members of our community actually on the site hmm now how many people are on mines with like a million and a half registered like quarter million active various we're small but the weird thing is that even though we're a fraction of the size especially smaller creators who come get better reach on mines than they do on Facebook and Twitter because we have this reward and incentive system sort of like gamified where you earn reach and you earn more of a voice for contributing so like you could have a count on Twitter for ten years and post thousands and

34:27thousands of tweets and you never hit that viral nerve and you just never never really get much exposure so we're trying to help people be heard and so you'll find a small creator who on other networks has no followers have thousands and thousands of followers on mines mm-hmm and what do you think you would like to do with mines in the future that you haven't been able to do yet engineer the control out of ourselves so that we aren't even in a position to really you know take people's stuff down or what if someone posts your house and your information where your kids go to school I think that on the central servers obviously yes we're always going to moderate and if it's legal it can stay if it's not illegal it can't but a decentralized social network is definitely where we have to go because and yeah okay it's it's scary and you know you've talked about this like

35:28things are getting more transparent our lives is sort of like the inevitable evolution of technology I mean how many hours a day do you stream a couple you know 25 years ago would you have thought you'd be sharing you know 20% of your life live streaming to you know millions of people like your our lives are becoming more transparent just inevitably it's just pulling us mm-hmm yeah I agree so you know Bitcoin crypto dat torrent stipe torrent type architecture that is just where we're going because it's more resilient it's less censorship prone there's just benefits of it I think that we can balance it to like maybe when you post you have a decision do you want to be able to delete this at any point all right fine then you can post the central server do you want this to get Unleashed yeah it's scary because you know there's scary stuff on the internet it's already like that but you know

36:30getting into censorship more does censorship even solve the problem or does it make it worse what problem the problem of crazy content illegal content how could it make it worse well I mean it seems like it can often amplify radicalization the definitely can right yeah yeah and it definitely when you censor people it just makes them aware that there's a plot against them too right it's like a lot of conservatives on Twitter find that some of the UH Sam Harris actually just sent me an article that was detailing the bias against conservatives on Twitter that they've actually done you know like some real studying it and it's pretty demonstratable demonstrable it affects both the left and the right well yeah the way I'm saying it wrong but it's it affects the left than the right for sure yeah that's what Kyle was saying I watched that video that he did and you know it's anti-establishment

37:25that seems to be getting targeted mm-hm and so you know Abby's been censored on face now be more learn yeah and yeah this person today that I mean most of the stuff coming out of RT is progressive which is weird and who knows what kind of games are getting played behind the scenes with the rush I mean who knows but point is they have a right to be there and I mean look at and this is not YouTube's fault but remember the YouTube shooter mm-hmm I mean she thought she was getting censored on YouTube and she went and brought a gun to the YouTube headquarters like people get pissed when they get censored it affects you right but in her case you're talking about a crazy person and what really people at ya know she uh she wasn't well she was getting sensor just like everybody else is getting soft censored on these networks well she just thought this wasn't she didn't wasn't getting

38:19promoted the way she wanted to I don't think anybody was actively doing anything I'm not saying her stuff was time saying that the soft censorship of the algorithms people getting demonetised this has an impact on psychology hmm okay I see what you're saying so it's I'm not saying they were deliberately targeting her and you so horrible what happened but yeah hmm so what you're saying is that these algorithms that they use in order to maximize their revenue and give people things that they like but actually takes away from things being posted chronologically keep certain things from being seen by as many people so it keeps them from being as viral so it keeps the whole thing from being organic yeah yeah makes sense yeah it's it gets to that point where we're realizing that all of these things all these social media things are really recent we've only had them for a few years and we don't

39:14necessarily know what the rules should or shouldn't be so it's good I mean it's one of the reasons why I want to have yann I wanted to find out where these upstarts were these new people are they're coming into the game like minds like where you're coming into the game from and what what is your position on what's wrong with the current state of affairs yeah and look there is messed up stuff on social media like I'm not will get pigeonholed and to be like oh you support all of this this crazy stuff first of all most of the users on minds are like artists musicians filmmakers activists journalists just trying to get their content out there there's a very tiny minority of like actually you know crazy content but when you said crazy content what do you mean you all right yeah yeah or I mean I'm not even gonna make decisions on what is and isn't crazy that's not that's not my place but the

40:10it's been proven that censorship is not the answer I mean look at the history of prohibition yes it's it's you have digital content it's substances it's it's anything in from people want information and they want the ability to make the decision for themselves they certainly do and then the argument on the other side is when people are distributing and I'm gonna use the big air quotes hate speech that's when it gets slippery to me because who's to decide what's hate speech and what's not hate speech we have seen people make some ridiculous statements about all sorts of people that are inaccurate and they do that in order to categorize them and pigeonhole them and and an easily definable and dismissible characterization you know you just decide hey that bill Ottman guy that guys this oh he's a radical that and he believes in this so him and they're like ok him sweet morning

41:05and then cancel culture comes in like we're gonna cancel bill Ottman we're not listening to him anymore you know he lied to us about his source or whatever the you doing have you heard of Darrell Davis no I have not unless I forgot how Dave is your boy he's my boy hee hee you'll you know I haven't met him but I want him to be my boy so he is a black man who befriended hundreds of members that KKK and he got them all to leave he got them to leave the to 200 members laughter he was like yeah I'm just gonna talk to you really you but did you ever see the W kamau Bell show when he visited with those white supremacists not that specific one no it was it's really good cuz he's such a nice guy he's so like easy to get along with that they were like sort of they let the guard down around him and you know you get to see these people kind of confuse that they like this guy mm-hmm you know

42:03that's why I think initiating human contact right via the social networks like that's really important but to devil's advocate it's one of the worst ways for people to express themselves in a way where you consider other human beings experiences and feelings and the way they're gonna receive what you're saying because there's no social cues you're not interacting with them you're not looking at them in the eyes it's one of the weirder forms of communication between human beings and one that I would argue we have not really necessarily successfully navigated it yet I agree I was actually saying that I think we should use social media more to get people to get together in real life do you know who Megan Phelps is no she was with the Westboro Baptist Church you know the the famous one that protests those soldiers funerals and you know and anything gay and that they're like

43:03ruthlessly viciously fundamental Christians where you know they do a lot of protesting at funerals and doing a lot of stuff to try to get she was with them for the longest time and then got on Twitter and through communicating on Twitter when you meet her you would never believe it in a million years that she was ever this fundamentalist and that she was ever some mean person sending hateful messages to people because their son was gay or whatever it was now she's completely cured of it she has no contact with the church anymore she's marriage as a kid she's completely outside of it she does podcast now and gives TED talks and speaks about radicalization and about how she was kind of indoctrinated and grew up in this family and her her grandfather Fred Phelps was this you know it's like it's a mean guy like a really mean vision he's the God hates guy you

43:55know they would have those signs that they would hold up but at the soldiers funerals I mean it's like really inflammatory stuff but through Twitter through her communicating with people on Twitter specifically her now-husband like he cured her like just with rational discourse and communication and she will change yeah they will change and so that's why banning them I mean in you I I saw in a recent podcast you've been talking about Redemption so but I'm curious what do you think people what is how does that look like well timba look in the case of like Megan Phelps that's a real thing right she really did change another example is Christian Peake aleni do you know who he is he was a white supremacist KKK member the guy who he's been on Sam Harris's podcast he's also done some TED talks who now speaks out against it and talks about how he's indoctrinated and talks about how lost

44:55he was and he was brought into this ideology there are there's many people like that all over the world Majid Majidi was another perfect example he was an Islamist I mean he was you know trying to form a Caliphate was literally thinking about radical Islamic terrorism as being some sort of a solution now he's the opposite now he's trying to get people to leave and he's trying to get people to be more reasonable and secular see what happened him he got punched in the street yeah yeah some guy called him a I guess and punched him in the head and his head up and he's got this giant cut on his head from a ring and his face is swollen up but apparently they have the guy on video and you know they think they're gonna be able to arrest your are but I've had Majid on the show he's a super nice guy the hard thing is that all right yes we see these transformations take place it

45:49makes us feel warm inside and yes people people can change but at the same time what our people have should people have to go apologize to Twitter oh I'm sorry like can I come back right I mean that's not like sometimes people are gonna think completely differently than you and you just have to deal with it right and it that should be okay we we shouldn't force people to come in to our way of thinking in order to have discourse no that's a good point that's a very good point and like who is to decide what this path to redemption is and whether or not you've completed it right who is decide like maybe you are like a hyper radical lefty and maybe Jamie's points of view and yours are just never gonna line up so you like him he's banned for life which a lot of people have been banned for life and when you look at some of the in frack they've been banned for it they're like

46:40boy I don't know about that one that doesn't really make sense almost none of the high-profile banning cases make much sense no it's like a short-term solution that's creating a long-term problem yeah that's really what it is so I just think that we have to talk about it more I don't know I it's like why can't we just get everyone to talk about it yeah like at the same time I mean it's like we're just wasting time here well sort of but I also think we're figuring it out as we go along with a bunch of different competing ideologies you know you have yours which like you dude you look like a hacker on like house of cards you look like a guy you call in to break into the the mainframe server or not that honestly I believe you know I hang out on gitlab and check out code but I I cannot cook I'm not claiming to be a developer no no you're not people are yeah it is incredibly

47:43understand right yeah I get it well that's like when if someone says to me like you're an MMA fighter I'm like I'm definitely not and they're on another level like there's a different guy I know a little martial arts but just settle the down right same kind of thing I think though that you your ideology is going to be your your point of view in perspective is going to be very different than maybe someone who's like a radical Marxist you know it shouldn't maybe a lot of post on the site too someone is like an extreme socialist someone like a OC yeah you know someone someone who thinks that we should give money to people who are unwilling to work someone who thinks that we should try to engineer society and tax the top X percent you know seventy something percent of their income there's a lot of those different people and we have to figure out how to to make it so that well we have to

48:40figure out a way to make it so all the ideas can compete in the marketplace of ideas right all these different ideas can compete we can find out which one is better and we can find out which one is better okay you don't always find out which one it's better the right you find out which one is most I mean that's what happen with Hitler right you don't really find out what's better you find out what what's got more Jews behind it it's just it's too risky even being in the position that I'm in you know I see these edge cases like we say look if it's legal it can be there but we still see edge cases where we have to make decision - what's like an edge case I mean let's see I mean there is I don't even want to go here but I will oh there there is a type of animation oh oh poor Nana man yeah yeah that is very sketchy this super you know like child porn animated child porn and we've taken

49:42the stance that look it's it could fall under obscenity laws so we don't we're not cool but you know that is a huge debate right that that that it has not been decided by the Supreme Court if animated you know kids like they will do the weirdest stuff and I just don't want to be telling people what is and what is not art right so like some of that Japanese stuff with tentacles mm-hmm like some of that stuff is just like what is happening here like I got like octopuses banging chicks in every hole and they're choking on it and they've got one in their ass and one of their vagina and it's all like very very liquidy you know there's a lot of splattering going on you're like what the is this and is that okay because it's just art right I mean if it was a person getting left right and center by an octopus he'd be like yeah I think that we've crossed some lines here that's bestiality but if

50:41it's an image and if then then the image is a girl with a schoolgirl costume on she's dressed like a Catholic schoolgirl with a little skirt and she's getting banged by an octopus like what do you do with that right yeah yeah what are you what would you do it's a good question I'm glad I don't have a social media site where after make that decision well the real concern would be is this something that is actually illegal that's the thing right and we we've tried to look at the case law and we've seen that this type of stuff has been you know called obscenity yeah for and so we're just not gonna risk it but I I still you know you know all right nipples nipples look right did you know that free the nipple started out before chan loh everywhere it's a whole it's a whole movement to be honest right time magazine just did a really interesting piece about a statue

51:36they got banned from Facebook it was a naked ancient statue doesn't Hipple like I'm sorry that's not that's not realistic that's not helping Society taking down in a naked statue we were talking about the other day during the Superbowl that Adam Levine had his shirt off and Brian Redman was like caped it wasn't that like what Janet Jackson got in trouble for yeah like yeah why does why is it okay if Adam Levine shows his nipples and Janet Jackson's nipples are offensive because they're sexualized because she's a woman mm-hmm this is the weird fact men had to gain the right to have their nipples shown in public back in the day when's the day I if you if you go on the the free the nipples site there's this go on their Instagram or something I think that's maybe where I saw it back when I used Instagram but you know society is evolving we're gonna get there we're

52:34gonna be able to handle it I think or give people the controls so that they can only see the types of things that they want see that's ultimately what it's about so like you should have like a filter like do I want 18-plus do I want pg-13 like what what kind of distinction do I want yeah and then when when things come up like one of the things that Instagram has been doing is like they say I follow a lot of hunters and Instagram has things where they say warning is a sensitive content nature is metal gets pop done that a lot too because nature's medals and Instagram site that's all like these crazy images and videos of animals eating other animals and attacking their animals and sometimes some of them they just decide this one's too up you know like just decide right you know like just wonder from where a lion is looking out of a wildebeest like from the inside

53:29like this giant hole they ve eaten through its stomach and it's looking out its now like yeah this one you're gonna have to click on your own you have to double click what do you got Jamie basically it from I just looked up Tarzan is the catalyst for why guys wanted to wear their shirts off that like in 1920's 1930's whom they had to wear in pools they had to wear a top but look this only covers one more best they're probably tired or that rebellion right they're pulling down the strap look at it says here saucy lifeguards flash rebellious nipples that's hilarious so as Tarzan 1937 New York State's male shirtless ban that's when they overturned at the incident attracted press attention as Atlantic City the other waterfronts similarly mandated against man nips with that legal Domino tipped along with the help of Hollywood hunks and you were talking about how

54:29their twitter has porn yes yo a lot banned from google play for that twitter has it they're up on google play it is twitter has a substantial amount of porn you know you follow like some of them gals and they just want you see look here's one in my right there take a look thank full-blown not offensive well it's not offensive you you follow them as you follow certain porn stars i think we can't be their own terms oh really but they're just allowing it because they know they want that traffic oh is that what it is you know they want that traffic wouldn't you know they what they're trying to bro yeah um it's a problem if you hand your phone to your kid you know they accidentally click on that link and they're like mommy what's happening with her but jonathan hate i hate her height height height height he was talking about an interesting thing where you know should there be an age where we

55:26really get into social media mm-hmm I don't know I mean people should be free but they were free to do what they wanted to but you know the Internet is the wilderness well his book the coddling of the American mind I'm in that right now I just finished his other one and I'm working on that one and a lot of it has to do with social media and a lot of it has to do with the impact that it has on young people you know people are not really designed for this and you might be able to handle it if you're 32 year-old man or a 35 year old woman or whatever you are but if you're a 15 year old girl this might it might be overwhelming I mean and the angst and the anxiety and you know that's what I was saying about the the depression you know they see if they're not at a party where their stuffs not getting liked and that has an impact on them and ultimately I think the networks need to

56:20be helping educate people how to you know whether it's disinfo educate people how to research I did see that YouTube is starting to do like you've been on this for too long type thing really yeah like get a life you yeah they tell you that I want to build stuff like that that that's really important yeah helping people get off yeah I haven't I haven't seen that I haven't done enough time on YouTube where they kicking me off I have it's easy you know was I sent Eddie Bravo this thing from The Guardian about the upsurge in people that believe in the Flat Earth and all of it because of YouTube videos and that apparently now YouTube is they want to censor those they want to they they feel like Flat Earth videos and I think another one check this check this if I'm wrong about this but I think they also want to lean on those anti-vaccination videos I think there's a concern with those I think

57:25they're worried about a bunch of different things along those lines you know like they feel like there's disinformation and outright lies it being bread how do we combat it we own this platform what do we do they feel like they have a responsibility I think there is responsibility ok but what is a responsibility if there's a debate I think it's more to educate people how to research mmm as opposed to saying this is or is not true right because who's deciding that well I believe the earth is round but I also believe it's such a stupid conspiracy that you should have it you should be allowed and it should be something you should show your friends like dude I need you to go look at this this has 37,000 thumbs up and they really believe that the earth is flat they really believe there's an ice wall outside Antarctica they really believe that the sky doesn't move that

58:17it's that the you know that we're in some sort of a I think it's like projected images or something like there's a bunch of like really really wacky theories like I think those are okay yeah of course yeah but I think freedom of information sort of transcends a lot of these little debates so if there was more freedom of information so we actually knew everything the government knew yeah about all of the different conspiracies and black projects the black budget yeah more information is going to get both sides the ability to understand what is happening doesn't sure the reality is that we don't know what's happening and there is lots of secret stuff the problem with that though is then you're dealing with foreign governments that are way better at keeping secrets and we are and if they have access to our secrets like one of the things has been kind of disturbing is seeing at the

59:10actual influence of these Russian troll farms have had on not just our political process but sowing seeds of dissent amongst people and and starting conflict amongst people and how people are buying into it you know like this podcast had been talking about a lot with sam harris and renee to Resta that's her name right where they talked about how these Russian troll farms set up a conflict by having a Pro Muslim rally across the street from a Pro Texas pride rally and they just set it all up and had their and then a skirmish broke out because these people were across the street from each other and that they do this with they were having these african-american groups that were saying anyone but Hillary and they were gonna like try really trying to get people to vote for Jill Stein really trying to get people to even consider Trump but did anyone but Hillary and then you they

60:03were also having like ones that were against them they're trying to like make debate they're trying to make anger and I don't think you can stop that but it's a fascinating thing isn't it that this is like a concerted effort yeah yeah like how do you feel about that when you when you are you know you're in a position where you have a fairly small network but it's influential right and then see watching Zuckerberg and the Facebook on TV and they're talking these Congress people and senators and they're talking all these politicians about what's going on and how to stop it and what they're trying to do and and you feel like oh god like this is kind of a this is an arena that I'm getting into what would you do I mean I think more conversation needs to happen not less yeah so I think you're right I just I want more information from the government from the corporation's from

60:54the trolls from the trolls I mean yeah you know I feel like I have a pretty good ability to discern what is and is not troll behavior I think help people understand how how do we how to absorb information like you know just banning an account that is trying to has an agenda is everyone has an agenda it's a propaganda back and forth between everybody I don't I mean just because somebody posts a Jill Stein meme okay what's your point like their intention okay I'm not saying that you know regime change behavior is positive or negative I don't know how we we sort of switch gears no we did but let me let me step in here when you're saying a Jill Stein meme there's absolutely nothing wrong with you posting a Jill Stein mean like say if you have a joke about Jill Stein you wanted to post it in a meme there's nothing wrong with that what's weird for people is that

62:01people are being hired to make these memes and they these memes may not have anything to do with their own personal ideology they might just might just decide hey I'm gonna collect this check and I'm gonna and they make apparently according to Renee and this podcast she did with Sam Harris they make really hilarious memes like some of them are really funny I listen that podcast yeah it was a great she said that she started laughing yeah yeah yeah and she would you know she would had to go through thousands and thousands of them that's weird the nice idea of a web of trust which is interesting sort of like a peer-to-peer it's not like a Chinese soulful score but it's like if you the people that you're connected with show a certain account to be untrustworthy then you know because you trust your little network so there it's sort of like a peer-to-peer score I we were looking at

62:51different ideas I think that transparency and understanding what's going on with different accounts and if it's the real person that's all important stuff we don't we don't want frauds we don't want just info but you know we just have to really step back and think about how we're doing it rather than letting AI and algorithms run the show right I see what you're saying do you think that there's a I don't say there's a market is there demand for this like are a lot of people responding in a positive way to the way you guys are approaching the game yeah for sure every time there's a big scandal every time whether it's you know data manipulation or you know our first big growth spurt was during the Snowden days when he released all the information right people are really upset with what's happening mm-hmm it's just you know where are they supposed to do like this is what they're using for

63:53their communications not easy to just achieve you know a multi billion person network overnight so that everybody's there and so we're stuck but again I think that supplementing just installing these alternative apps not just us it's like the whole open market I'm not even here trying to just talk about what we're doing right it's like if you don't have those apps on your phone and you don't use those browsers I'm sorry you just you're not helping and people just want to vote with their energy I think and vote with their time so it's more of an education thing people just don't know that this matters and that this can help change the whole internet simply by logging into an app once in a while it's like it's like organic food I mean we want to put things into it we want to support things that have integrity so when you click something you are supporting that

64:49thing when you're sitting on an app all day you are feeding that app that's how the apps get all the money that's where they get all their funding that's that that's where it's all based is in user retention and energy and do you think that most people are even aware of this or you think they're just using it because it's convenient the biggest sharad going on right now most people don't know that Facebook owns Instagram they think instagrams like cool because you know it's not Facebook right it's one giant umbrella yeah yeah what is what is the difference between the two obviously with Instagram it's just pictures mostly and then whatever the post is blow the pictures but with Facebook it's a lot more commentary and long verbose statements on and then people arguing in the comments about it mm-hmm yeah they're all the the Instagram founders left abandoned ship

65:47the whatsapp founders abandon ship the oculus of found her abandoned ship all because of the privacy stuff real they're like you took this good thing well it was proprietary so I would argue if it was ever actually a fully good thing but at least it wasn't you know completely corrupted by Facebook but all of the founders of those companies left because they hate what's going on what the the whatsapp guy joined signal which is a really cool open-source anti an encrypted messaging app mm-hmm so you know these people know so what happened with whatsapp it's not the same anymore whatsapp is owned by Facebook I don't know this oh yeah yeah sorry yeah come on bro get the jungle man's like well you're deep into this man that's why I want to talk to you yeah it's and they're all buying up companies and using these same sort of ideas yeah now they're talking about integrating

66:41the messages between whatsapp Instagram and Facebook so it's all one system rule yeah yeah centralization it has happened hasn't been turned on yet but I believe it's happening like your DMS on Instagram you're gonna have to download the Facebook messenger so what is what are the challenges for something like mine's when you you're trying to take off like there was a social media Instagram type thing that was around a little while ago remember I used it like once and I posted about it and what was that called but then Severo said what it was but then a lot of people were saying is and their proprietary well you don't know it's closed source no idea what's going on behind the scenes same as the other one a lot of apps try to say that their alternatives and that you know they support X whines you know privacy or free speech or whatnot but I don't think it's any new paradigm if

67:40they're not showing their source code so that people can see the algorithms the people who care you know obviously most people aren't gonna go and inspect the code right but just the principle that the experts could because they will you know there's all kinds of think tanks and whatnot that would love to dive into the source code to understand how these companies were actually behaving so you know waiving the privacy flag without being open source or this is getting a little bit into the weeds but a lot of this comes down to licensing of content or code so the license that we use for our code is called the general public license the a GPL v3 which means that anyone can take our code and do whatever they want with it they can sell it they can do anything but if they make changes they have to show them with everybody else so it's sort of like the creative

68:32commons share-alike license which is essentially says the same thing my video photo remix it do whatever you want but you have to share the result with everybody else open-source basically means you can do whatever you want with it you can take it make it your own you know keep your own little secret sauce if it makes you feel good they get conflated because you know free software sounds like free is in free beer not free as in freedom so you know licensing is really what this all colas is into and and and but it's been proven that you can make a lot of money with free and open-source software I mean look at WordPress it's a hugely successful technology corporation the multi-billion dollars people share the code that's how it created a network effect because they did that it's like the Grateful Dead would let everybody record their music and that was how it

69:34spread so it's actually a good marketing tactic and it also gives transparency so people can see what the hell's going on right now when you started this what what was your objective and were you thinking about it as a potential large-scale source of revenue or were you just thinking this is something that I would like to do and do correctly because I don't think anybody's doing it this way open source you know Pro censorship or Pro freedom of speech anti censorship and you know to just do the the bare minimum amount of managing content I think everyone should be able to make money I don't think it should have to be mutually exclusive like you do something for free for everybody and you also can't make money that's not a big misconception we're trying to make give people the tools to make money I mean we have like a monthly recurring subscription system

70:30sort of like a crypto patreon type tool so you can subscribe to people we had the ability for creators to accept Fiat dollars but we took it out because it's stripe and stripe is a closed source system which we just didn't have long-term faith in so stripe was some sort of an extension to your site we were using their API to facilitate peer-to-peer payments this is why real patreon most likely banned Carl because are gone above Sargon who yet because the payment processors went to them or like look you know stripe has very strict terms and we didn't want to be you know talking to strip like we don't want to be subject to overlords right in our company decisions course so you know you think that that's what happened with Carl that is most likely what happened so they stepped in and said hey we don't want this guy to be a part of the site yeah and I think that

71:33striped probably stepped in with a lot of explicit content and controversial content I mean it's in their policy that you can't facilitate payments dealing with that type of content and now we're seeing banks actually go go after people well the thing about Carl toe was that his content that was questionable wasn't even related to patreon had nothing to do with it it was on another person's podcast it was from six months prior and that other person's podcast was on YouTube it had nothing to do with patreon and they had specifically said that they were not going to act on content that was outside of their network they were only gonna react to things that were on patreon right cuz you can make little blogs and stuff on patron right they do have some content yeah yeah so but that's not what patreon said obviously the processor's prior I don't want to who knows yeah I

72:21don't want to act like a suspect I also don't want it to seem like I have an ideology that I'm trying to push right right now like I'm very open to moving in the direction that makes the most sense for the community I'm not I'm not attached to what I'm thinking mm-hmm good oh I like that I would wish more people would do that I mean I try to do that I'm really getting way better at it but that's something I actively work on like these ideas that I have I'm not married to them don't argue them look at them look at them if someone says something different go huh alright don't go no man very ironic bro you know is that that natural instinct to argue into you know claim some sort of a personal identity with your with your ideas that's it's part of the problem that we have yeah I think it's it's a main conflict issue with social media is you one of the things that I see a lot of

73:19that look I used to do it way back in the day if you go back to the early days of Twitter I used to argue with people I still argue with people on social media then I realized some long time ago like there is no good that comes out of that I might correct someone if someone said something that's incorrect but I'm not gonna argue and I'm not gonna insult I just I'm just not I didn't even work it doesn't work it just makes people argue back and insult you back and nothing ever gets accomplished occasionally you dunk on people and it's fun but Rhian reality especially me I mean I kind of dunk on people for a living so I'm just gonna I'm not gonna engage and I don't this is gonna sound corny as I don't hurt anybody's feelings I really don't I don't want to be in some argument where someone is looking at their phone like you you I don't want that and I want that I

74:08get that I know what it is I know what it is but it's it's in this flat medium okay this two-dimensional medium of typing text and then sending text and you type text and send text the conflict that arises through that it's never beneficial in my opinion I don't get anything out of it so what you know if I'm expressing something almost always I try to express something about I like like oh I love this new show all this movie was great oh this is amazing like check out this picture J you might want to check this out it's it's tone yeah honestly like I I'm saying with me like I was much more trying to convince people about what I thought was right yes you know coming out of college you think you're all high and mighty it doesn't work no uncle just you know are allergic to I'm allergic to I cannot handle it like it's not no one wants to talk like that right it's one thing if you're having a

75:07good time yeah and trying to just like show someone up yeah I mean it just you can have fun with it it's more comedic but when you're actually taking yourself seriously like it's not gonna work no it's not gonna work and it actually has the exact opposite effect that's like the expression what it would house a person I got jealousy is like a poison that how does it go jealousy is like a poison that you take yourself because you don't like what someone else is accomplishing I forget the terrible job paraphrasing that no my worst paraphrasing of all time mumbled mouth that I am but uh but the idea is that it has the exact opposite effect like you're jealous about someone it actually makes you feel bad instead of them feel bad it also makes them not want to hang out with you well you know they probably want hang out with you anyway let's be honest but but the the the you know what

76:04you're doing by back and forth on so I know and I know people who do engage in it and sometimes they have these anxiety moments where they don't sleep for days because they're involved in these Twitter feuds I mean I know people that have done this where they've gotten involved in Twitter feuds and I wake up at 3 o'clock in the morning to check their Twitter feed and like oh Christ man like you got to go go go on a yoga retreat or something like you can't do this you can't live your life like this I think there may be some value to the debate happen it should be there it's a see there debate it's like okay I'm not gonna spend my time doing it that way some people want to spend their time doing it that way yeah and if there's cool mechanisms for you know the most voted content to be seen so the I mean okay that's interesting to check out sometimes to look at feedback but it's

76:56it's it's not nearly as an effective way of communicating your ideas as like making something more personal right it's you know more I mean even video is is more effective than that because people actually have a chance to look at you or obviously in person yeah even better yeah well in person is obviously the best and I think my concern really about the futures I'm holding back a sneeze right now sorry trying to keep it together I don't think I can it's one of those borderline ones what he supposed to do was stare the light are you trying to risk this no I'm trying to get okay we're good we're out of the woods um I lost my train of thought what was what we just had AI something no jealousy quote you're talking we want my past that Jamie I know we've got a stake for days I was looking for it I lost it I lost it in my holding back of sneeze that oh that's

77:56what I was worried about a I not a I augmented reality that's what I'm really worried about not artificial but augmented and Mike my concern is that what we're experiencing right now in this flat form of two-dimensional text is something that is very overwhelming to a lot of people's time and you're looking at some kids that are online social media 810 hours a day just staring at their phones I'm extremely concerned and I have some jokes about it in my act about the next wave because I think that we are overwhelmed by this incredibly attractive medium where we're attracted to our phones were attracted to this style of engaging and information and receiving information and passing it from and online arguments and debates and and looking at pictures and this constant stream which you know just looking at your phone it's not that thrilling it's just like hmm it's not

78:52that thrilling it's like okay yeah but it's still getting you all day long like there's nothing really crazy happening when my concern is if something really crazy does start to happen when you really can have experiences that are a hyper normal like that are that are more powerful than anything you can experience in this regular carbon-based physical touch and feel world and once we start experiencing augmented reality the integration between humans and technology and then the ability to share augmented reality like to like if you were at work and you have these goggles on and your girlfriend is at work on the other side of town and you you guys both have like these similar video pets that are with you and dancing around and providing you with advertisements and giving you things there's there's next levels to this stuff that I'm trying to like see the future but I'm too stupid and I

79:51don't really know anything about technology but I know that they're gonna get deeper into our lives I know that these technologies not they like the government but these technologies they're going to get deeper into your life and that they got you by the balls in the with a phone and it doesn't even do much take some pictures look at some pictures look at some text watch some videos that's all it does and access to most human knowledge that's true but how many people using our right well as you know they are for sure they definitely are there's a lot of googling going on I'm sorry what is the other one stucco duck duck going going on I'm holding out for for another one and we might start working on search more being is like a goddamn ghost town isn't it I bet if you go to Bing you got a blow dust off your keyboard as soon as you open it up like no one's in there

80:41who's in Bing Bing is just Microsoft's I know who's using that old ladies I think that YouTube is the number two search engine on the web you too - yeah Wow yeah that's what really makes so many videos about so many weird topics and just like a little hop up and you get I don't think we can stop it but you know cuz look it would be fun to you know the with the frequency that you go to like in arcade like I would go and do some crazy AR VR stuff I mean it would be fun it's like a rare entertainment thing to do I just want to make sure that like see even with the robots that we're carrying around now do is is it respecting my freedom is this thing on my side it's not I don't think it is right now because I'm using Android is open source are you an Android guy of course yeah but all those crypto guys they're all Android you have it's it's just more freedom now Google's version

81:45of Android is just as bad as iOS so what who's version of Android to use I am yeah no I'm not no I'm not perfect I'm on the Google and right now but there's a version called Kent which is which is a fully free version of Android that I'm probably because I just cracked my phone like a day ago so I'm have to get a new one when you use an put phone to use s8 oh look at you yeah kind of retro is it is this one called the black phone which I'm looking into which is up it's like a hyper encrypted phone but I don't know if it's if it's fully free isn't there a blockchain based phone that they were coming out with and a theory and base phone isn't that I don't know I don't wasn't that something Jaime sure I definitely got an ounce but I don't know that it's still in development you can't run everything on a blockchain no box chains are pretty slow we we use it even to publish to the

82:43etherion blockchain like when you send each other payments on lines it costs like you know there's a gas fee so the way that the network is powered is that you know the miners get paid with gas with a little bit of ether so it costs like a buck to do a post like there's fully decentralized social networks there's one called ppthe which you have to pay for everything you do right on on it and so this is why it's it's a cool experiment but it's really not scalable so you know it's gonna be a combination of decentralized technology like not just blockchain people like to you know say the blockchain is gonna solve all the problems and it's gonna solve a lot of problems it's an incredible tool but mmm yeah I'm uh what is this Jaime is this it the finis one that's out now yeah I just just what I'm still like a month ago hmm that's pretty siren OS which I'm not exact what is

83:34that jazz good luck getting a app with that and some of those Android apps they're they're sneaky right don't they steal Bitcoin there was an Android app that got in trouble for stealin cryptocurrency it was stealing it in the background why you had your app open and it was on the Google Play Store see if that's true I'm gonna made something up I get sued I don't think I did though I think and I think it was stealing yeah you know pull that up so we can see it I have an Android phone as well I have a note 9 I really like it it's giant huge screen great battery life beautiful so you use both yes Bitcoin scam warning / fakie Android app that steals cryptocurrency from your phone yeah I use both um andrew is very good now it's very good I was an early adopter and it was like clunky and shitty and then I would go to my iPhone I was like oh my god this is so much

84:28better what I phone is great with his integration with like Apple TV integration with a laptop but I also have a Windows laptop that I use a lot I really like I have a Lenovo ThinkPad I refer as for writing the keyboards better in fact I actually bought an older MacBook just for the keyboard because as a writer you you want tactile feedback as you're writing it just helps it makes it easier for you to recognize where the keys are and Apple has decided to go so far towards design and just for aesthetic beauty that they've ruined the tactile feedback - you remember that though when the old you know smartphones you could they still had the keyboard I thought I would never leave that mmm because tactile right ultimately left that's true but that's a different experience that's just gems I can do that with my thumbs and I kind of know where everything is and I'm not writing a novel

85:24you know when I'm writing material or essays or something like that I need I need a keyboard you don't think that the holographic screen that's just here you don't think if it's just like auto corrects everything you do and you could just look maybe but there's there's a I like the tactile - yeah there's a feeling I like mechanical keyboards in fact there's a feeling of knowing did you test out that FaceTime bug about FaceTime bug yeah there was a FaceTime bug where what was it you didn't see that I heard about it but I didn't look into it at all yeah we didn't test it out in play basically you could call someone and hear them without them picking up oh yeah without them picking up them picking up yeah so the thing is ringing on FaceTime and they don't even have to pick up and then you're on the other end talking about them it's basically certainly hell anybody bill and mines that

86:16guy's full of soon as the big companies come to him he's gonna stick his ass in the air just like all of them said the camera could be turned on too makes sense I was like that when I'm beaten off don't you you should they Apple acts like it cares about privacy which maybe it doesn't turn certain over things the FBI I don't know exactly what's but we don't know what the Apple phones are doing right Apple is all locked down close source mm-hmm and additionally there was a creepy speech that Tim Cook just just gave creepy did you see it no let's listen to it yeah let's listen to it show community the ADL speech do you have any spooky music you could play in the background why he's doing this speech we might get in trouble for that so again it's good intentions like people who want less hate speech we all want less H Beach of course we want people to get along better yeah right

87:14but this idea that I don't want to give away too much way but you know he's acting as if they are going to be the moral authority about the types of content that can exist on the App Store you know so I just don't know how that's scalable yeah what does that mean like let's say what hoping this is the right one is it it says CEO Tim Cook banning hate division is the right thing to do 12:3 2018 is that it December that's it okay let's hear it hello Tim fine please to the humanity that makes us us we do that in many ways one of the most important is how we honor a teaching that can be found in Judaism but is shared across all faiths and traditions it's a lesson that was carried forward by the late Elie Wiesel may his memory be a blessing it's a lesson put into practice by America's Muslim community who raised thousands for the victims of the tree of life killings low-tom mode al Dom ray

88:34akka do not be indifferent to the bloodshed of your fellow man do not be indifferent this mandate moves us to speak up for immigrants and for those who seek opportunity in the United States we do it not only because their individual dignity creativity and ingenuity have the power to make this country an even better place but because our own humanity commands us to welcome those who need welcome it moves us to speak up for the LGBTQ community for those whose differences can make them a target for violence and scorn we do so not only because these unique and uncommon perspectives can open our eyes to new ways of thinking but because our own dignity moves us to see the dignity and others perhaps most importantly it drives us not to be bystanders bystanders as hate tries to make its headquarters in the digital world an apple we believe that technology needs

89:55to have a clear point of view on this challenge there is no time to get tied up in knots that's why we only have one message for those who seek to push hate division and violence you have no place on our platforms you have no home here from the earliest days of iTunes to Apple music today we have always prohibited music with a message of white supremacy hold on sir what what do you think they're signalling here are they signaling that they're about to start censoring things like whatever they are they already are they okay I agree these you probably shouldn't put white supremacy music on but there's a lot of like really violent stuff that you can get on iTunes right I mean if you go back to the old NWA albums there's some that's available right I'm assuming yeah that is for sure but yeah like straight out of Compton that is some violent and then how about the films that they have

91:16how about the films you can get on the iTunes Store there's a lot of very very very violent films like extremely violent there's a lot of films that like is it that they're making the distinction between something that's fiction that although it may be disturbing you understand that this is a movie and this is something someone wrote versus someone art versus yeah versus someone with commentary their commentaries hey and then here's the other thing where he was saying hate and division they won't promote division but that's a weird one yeah that means like what does that mean people who disagree with you what is division has good intentions you can steal it yeah the problem with this right that it's he's not allowing the conversation to take place so this is in direct conflict with the Daryl Davis's with confronting these issues right so but but I think wasn't when he's saying

92:18you have no place on our platform they probably feel like you can go somewhere else he's building a wall yeah I mean but this is what I'm saying like everybody kind of feels like you can go somewhere that's what happens though and that's how things get more radicalized and everybody goes to AB so I don't know yeah look the conversation to take place people on the left he he's acting like he's speaking for all LGBTQ people he's not there's lots of people on the left and LGBTQ people aren't always on the left and while all of them want that well not only that there's division in LBGT and Q like there's a there's a big issue right now with martina navratilova that was going on about her discussing the reality of trans women competing against biological women and that she opposes it and she thinks is there some fundamental advantages which is leading to a lot of

93:17weightlifting world records being broken by trans women and she's like this is preposterous including trans women with penises now they're attacking her for being transphobic so there's not even a United United opinion in the lbgtq community for sure and that's why that megan murphy i think yes the i go to this restaurant in Bridgeport Connecticut called bloodroot which is like sort of an old-school feminists like vegetarian vegan spot in in Bridgeport in Bridgeport really yeah yeah yeah rich poor it's kind of no no offense I know it's kind of a dumb wild place yeah we would have gathering in the vibe from you as a festival school I helped organize I used to stand up in Bridgeport this place called the Joker's wild it was a comedy club so so the only eat a guy with his shoe there yeah beat a guy in the face with his shoe pulled his shoe off and smiley nice I was 24 I

94:14don't know what the was going on so anyway though that restaurant the you know they get called what is it turf turfs yeah trans exclusionary radical feminist yeah and so again you know they're the old school ones and they're saying look you know we're not against your your battle right yeah we're not against trans rights avi who would be trans oh yeah but they're just saying that's not our thing so again there's diversity and they're trying to clump everyone together in the whole intersectional world and look people want to band together the suppressed groups want to band together they should yes but like it's not that simple well there's always going to be differing opinions and especially when you have something like you know trans women competing against biological women and you know you have someone like Martina Navratilova that made her her life's work in her career

95:11competing as a biological woman she's gonna have some opposition to that and then the idea that everyone's supposed to be lumped in together with some mandate that no one has really openly discussed you're supposed to agree and it fluctuates and moves like the tide you know like what is and is and moves like the tide it just changes it's like this court of public opinion it's it's constantly rendering new verdicts and you have to keep up and catch up things that were acceptable just a few years ago are totally unacceptable I mean comedy is is the key area - yeah it is not what's happening on social media now not sustainable for comedy because it's fine oh really yeah it is it is how because it creates outrage and then comedy it relieves that that pressure like believe me there's a lot of blowback and believe me there's a lot of debate and discussion but also believe

96:08me when someone does do some politically incorrect really good stand-up people go bonkers they love it it's going it's like one of the best times ever right now to do stand-up people go AAP ya know it's incredible material but I'm just saying for you know comics that are running into issues with getting banned or whatnot I mean who's one of the issues with getting banned i mean i think you know 101 yeah yeah Owens has some issues yeah and you know you can make some arguments that Owens not doing so well right now but he's also developing his following because of the fact there's people that don't agree with him being banned he's a very specific example other people that are being banned do you know of a other who what others stand up community you've had a bunch of comics on maybe they haven't been fully banned from social media but they've had their performances shut down who's that

97:12one guy who was on the mesh Natasha fatale but that was at a college see you the same it's the same thing yes but universities have been bad for that for a long time they're the most sensitive of all audiences and they're the ones who are the most they believe the most they're gonna change the world and that their ideals are there their ideals or rock-solid and they have to push back against anything that opposes them Ari was temporarily banned for that was an accident yeah yeah the Ari thing was he was joking around and they thought he was making legitimate death threat joking around with a good friend of ours the algorithms are cutting the moderators are not right we can't just be having this happen all the time and then they just keep saying oh sorry yes sorry there has to be a new approach completely it can't just be oh let them back on and and just keep doing what

98:09they're doing like we need to completely reappropriation it's not just a matter of going to the overlords and saying can I can I please come back right it's that's not that's not suitable for the communication structure of the planet Earth well I think what's not suitable is that commerce should not dictate how human beings are allowed to openly communicate with each other and one of the things that Jack said that's kind of contrary to his company's actions was that he believes that the ability to communicate is a fundamental right like the ability to get electricity like if you're in the KKK you can still order electricity you know so should you be able to just distribute information if people say no then you have to say okay well who's to decide what can and cannot be distributed and then who's to decide if they can go somewhere else and then what happens if you tell a person they

99:08can't go anywhere then things get really weird we're looking at more of a community moderation structure so that we've even been considering like a juror system so that if we make a bad decision and someone appeals it then the community can potentially make the decisions as opposed to us or you know but then when you go further than up for the far enough into the decentralization world it just becomes impossible so we sort of have to decide I I think that's where it's gonna go mm-hmm so I don't know III that's that's the uncensor Abal internet and this idea that we can do things and then just delete them like in the GDP are the European privacy laws have the solidity of the right to be forgotten online which is very difficult because deleting things from any database especially a blockchain is not easy so the idea that you can go on the internet do crazy and then just

100:11have it taken away it's a paradox because privacy means control but you know it doesn't jive with the way that technology works to just be able to to delete things like you're writing to a database that's not even how the universe probably really works like you can't just say oh I just went punch that guy in the face and the bar and I just want to delete that from having happened right yeah yeah and again I think that what we're dealing with now is like you have to interface with it right you have to interface with your computer you have to interface with your phone to access all this stuff my real concern is that that's just a temporary step and that we're going to just consistently and constantly be interfaced with all of each other you know Elon brought something up when he was on the podcast called neural link and he didn't want to fully describe it because he said he

101:14couldn't but he said it's gonna be live within you know a matter of X amount of months and he was talking about it increasing the bandwidth between human beings and information in a radical way that's gonna change society that is what I'm talking about yeah he's talking about an injection you basically doing like your throat and it's a neural lace and it just you know threads around your brain what and yeah you serious yeah that's yeah that's what he's talking so a million try and turn us into robots so but the question is what's the nature of those robots robots are going to exist they they exist right but should you shoot them into your brain if you're dying of cancer would you or it yeah I'd want to see God it suits up so like do the nanobots you know that Kurzweil talks about like do we have control as a community over those robots what's what's the code

102:08running those saying are they infallible I mean what if they crap I mean our TriCaster crashes every other podcast yeah whether it's open source or free or not makes no difference to whether it can up your brain right what if somebody puts that in and then for whatever reason they have a blown fuse and they stomp on the gas and drive right into a tree it depends on the level of risk you're willing to take I mean you see some of those videos like I've cried out those videos where like the the woman like here's for the first time you're like yeah yeah yeah and people seeing color for the first time putting on certain glasses that allow them see color yeah all the stuff is amazing I mean that all that stuff is very cool and in talking to David Sinclair and he was talking about emerging technologies in with reversing aging and age-related diseases I mean we're we're entering or

102:55entering into an incredibly strange time for the the influence of technology and innovation on human beings on our bodies and our brains oh and we're gonna have to decide you know how how far you want to go on this ride next stop Far Rockaway like when you get now I live there yeah as I've done the beach there I'm going but you know I'm saying it's like one of those things like wet where do you get off like when where do you go that okay that's enough you know like with you you're deleting Facebook you lead to delete Instagram and you go just gonna be on mines and that's enough I'll go in other places I mean that these there are out alternatives that are getting fair big yes what so and and together like what like signal has tens of millions of users I don't know what that is you've never heard of it that's like the encrypted messaging app that do you know

103:47what I don't it's open source what is it Snowden is on their advisory board or whatnot what is signal it's just a messaging app so a message on but like a whatsapp or like a Twitter okay whatsapp so it's you have to know the person and then contact them through it yeah but we're talking we're considering using the signal protocol for our messaging system because our messaging system needs an upgrade but all of us together are going to be able to create sort of like a a group of apps that are like sort of a more open freedom supporting privacy alternative and like so it's we're not gonna solve it by ourselves and it would be way easier if one of these big companies would just switch gears and start doing things the right way I mean we've spent eight years building this if one of the big companies Google Facebook had just been free and open source we would have spent

104:45the last seven years building on top of them right because you know they already did something cool that they're sharing with everybody so it's it's actually closed source projects stifle innovation because if you think we had to reinvent the wheel we literally we went and built an alternative with much of the similar functionality think about how much further the world would be if everyone was building on top of more common but you're looking at in terms of your own personal benefit you're looking in terms of mine's personal benefit and we created this thing it's not just pure for altruistic reasons it's a business right so if they had established this open source network that was Facebook and he just came along and built yours well that yeah that would be great for you but why would that be great for them I mean they they're obviously in a business now the problem with the

105:37businesses this business is the business of distributing information and then we have to decide okay at what point in time do we allow these air quotes overlords to dictate what can and cannot be distributed and how do this happened because in the beginning I bet it didn't happen I bet in the beginning you could just put on whatever the you wanted and then they had to deal with that and then they had to figure out after a while okay maybe we shouldn't have this on like hey if we're gonna sell advertising we really should maximize the amount of clicks okay how do we do that well we put things in people's feeds they want to see we put things that people want to debate about and argue about and political things all sorts of different things that excite them and get them to be engaged with the platform that's that's their business their businesses I mean it's no

106:21different in a lot of ways than Amazon or then any other business that wants to grow like how do they grow well they grow by maximizing their profits and by maximizing the amount of eyes that get to their advertising so they get more clicks and more people get engaged that's what their businesses you're deciding by saying if they were open source look how much further on the world would be they would be further along to I don't know if they would agree with that I think they're they're worth kajillions of dollars so they've figured it out well it just depends on whether or not you think that people have a right to know what is going on it's I mean it's like food transparency well yeah we were yeah we I'll talk about that I will talk about that to the end of time mm-hmm you were interfacing with this and it's affecting us I agree yeah I fully agree with what you're saying I'm playing

107:12devil's advocate by saying that in their position they have a business and their business is to make money and they're gonna lose because of what they're doing because if their businesses up even after losing access users are they yeah but I thought their business went up after the probably did it but it's not gonna last I mean look I they say that it's just the game's over it's gonna take a long time for us to build it up as you know all of these different organizations and companies working together but Linux for instance is the operating system that most banks it is the most popular operating system the world it's open so it's in your phone it's in everywhere mm-hmm it got there because of that because everyone used it and incorporate it into their product Facebook they are all using free and open source off in their stacks they're just not sharing their product with everybody else so

108:09they're benefiting from it but not giving back and you know I I almost feel like I shouldn't even be saying that they should just pivot because you know that's their only chance to survive so this is based on your estimations of the future yeah it just seems like things are becoming more open and if is that possible because you engage with a lot of other super nerds and you guys all have these similar ideas you just have to look at what's happening with Bitcoin I don't know what's happening with Bitcoin it's becoming a bit coin in aetherium and you know lots of other block chains are growing really fast maybe the you know the price is separate the development energy the number of people who are building apps on top of Bitcoin and etherium is growing massively there's there's it's a whole new infrastructure it's like a common protocol that people can build on so

109:06that is growing rapidly the price is secondary that's not even what Bitcoin in theory Ammar really about it's it's it's a decentralized database so this is just where the internet the internet is meant to be decentralized it sort of started out that way and then we moved into this like web to silo system with like just these massive companies that are controlling everything but it's gonna it's going to keep waving okay again to play devil's advocate the vast amount of users are not using those platforms the vast amount of users are using these controlled platforms like Facebook and Instagram and Twitter like if that's if you if you're talking about I'm just guessing but if you're talking about the the the gross number of human beings that are interacting with each other on social media they're mostly uncontrolled networks you're saying this is not gonna last but

109:59there's no evidence that it isn't going to last there's tons of evidence what is the evidence Wikipedia what is what happened in card I remember that disk you put in your computer that was your encyclopedia mm-hmm where is that no one uses it okay that's that's different this is not a social media network the social media networks that people are using are almost all controlled right yeah no it's not it's gonna take a very very long - how long I would say ten years and what do you think is going to be the catalyst like what's going to cause these people to make this radical shift to open-source I think we have to be we have responsibility to be competitive functionally like you guys does we do we're getting we're moving there fast like we just hired a ton of new developers and it's going to take time we're not there yet right but once we have functionally competitive

110:55products that you wouldn't even know the difference and there's enough people there then it's basically the decision of you know am I gonna choose the one that respects my privacy and freedom or the one that doesn't and people our kids don't like Facebook right no everyone is sick of it we're just drug addicts hmm is that what it is they just sucked into this thing where yeah you constantly want to check and see who's writing what and yeah and there's monopolies arguably yeah yeah right especially when Facebook owns Instagram right um oh but if they bought Twitter as well they almost did I think Google almost steps in and buys everything then you're like oh no they probably could right yeah they easily could they could probably buy everything Apple could with cash yeah yeah Tim Cook could come in with a big purple pimp suit on just slap down a briefcase pitch

111:53I just wonder and like look all the all these executives you know Jack seems like a cool person he's a very nice guy it's not I just sent so much inconsistency and you know he's talking about Bitcoin mmm like it's this important new Internet money simultaneous which is he knows the infrastructure is open mm-hmm but then his platforms are the opposite why is he so inconsistent it's like there's it's just hypocritical to the maximum mm I think it's partly because it's a giant business you know and I think when you have an obligation to your shareholders and to maximize profits and when you're trying to maximize profits - and there's the this universal growth model where every year just has to get a little bit bigger otherwise you're up as a CEO like do you don't have to experience that with mines you're one of the co-founders how many people are involved

112:51it's like 15 of us now and you have like a board we sit around when you make critical decisions mm-hmm such stressful as yeah luckily we've started off from the point where we're saying okay we're embedding principles into how we're doing things mm-hmm so we're not in a position where we would ever change that that that's that for us to do that would just be a total waste of time right so we're making it harder for ourselves to make money in the beginning we're making it harder for ourselves to grow because we are not going to compromise people's privacy in order to do those things and so we're just gonna build up slowly steadily mmm fine and just get there when we get there how much time a day is this how much of an obligation is this for you the same as any job I'm it's it sucks because you know my wife Ally would say like it's too blurred my life because it's like

113:55what is pleasure what does it mean probably happens with you too like when you're on your phone like your family doesn't know if you're working or if you're doing something for fun yeah it's like your work is sort of in the digital realm partially a lot of it yeah yeah so it's like I just need to put it down like no phones in bed mm-hmm these kinds of things like strict lines yeah that is that is huge strict lines are huge yeah putting your phone in a physical place and pushing it away you know like that's it's huge it's just that the compulsion to look and check like Instagram feeds to see if there's any cool picture it's like what the am i doing like why am i compelled to do this there's no benefit like occasionally if I'm bored in the dentist's office you have ten minutes all right what could see what the going on in the news like maybe occasionally but there's so much

114:54of your time it's dedicated to that so much of it it's so taxing and it's so involved and so many people are doing it man went to a restaurant the other day and I was looking around and everyone was sitting at a table looking at their phone it's Weaver do the stack game what's that just like if you're out to dinner with a bunch of people just everyone's put their phone in a stack in the middle well you could do touch it then you pay oh I'd rather just just not not yeah people's people wipe their butts and don't wash their hands and touch their phone and you know your phone is filled with all kinds of dirty they like done these the swab test the phones or covered with e.coli and peewit gross I'm not you I'm a little germaphobe keep my hands clean Brown I'm not but I know your phone probably has your butt all over it just be honest sure you don't have to but I know you're saying

115:50like it's a good idea you know the guys who run Joe beef in Montreal it's this amazing restaurant Fred and Dave and they were they were talking about it that when they go to dinner they shut their phone off like I'm gonna I'm a good guest a good table guest I shut my phone off I don't I don't engage it on check it it's a you know it's a it's a similar thing to podcasting in a way in that one of the good benefits of podcasting is that for three hours or two hours or whatever the you're doing you're gonna sit down and you're just getting gauge with a person just you I me and Bill we're just talking right and that we're not checking our phone we're not looking at the television we're not looking at the laptop there's no distractions and that is one of the rare moments in life where you get to talk to someone for several hours and over the last you know nine

116:42years that I've been doing this podcast I've it's benefited me tremendously just just in having real conversations of people we're just sitting across from somebody for hours just talking to them like getting better at understanding how people think getting better understanding I think getting way better at communicating and you know knowing when to talk and when not to talk and what questions to ask and try to understand the thought process that another person has and you know you walk out of that with some lessons like little real legit tangible lessons those don't happen we should turn at your phone while you're talking to people it like cuts all that off that the conversation stays shallow you miss important points like oh I'm sorry what we're saying you do that kind of and like then the other person knows you're not engaged it's just it's weird yeah it's all

117:30shades of gray I mean it's done incredible things for like democratizing the ability to share information so it's not just these yeah juggernaut media companies are the only places that can share information so it's incredible it's crucial we need everyone to have the ability to share and so that you can check and because you maybe you're more likely to get the reality of what's going on the world from your newsfeed then then the big companies but we need management skills personal management skills yeah and we I think we need to look at them the same way we look at like alcohol consumption and you know even poor food choices like you could have a cheat day and eat a bunch of pizza and some ice cream like the rock does no one's gonna get hurt right but most the time you probably take care of your meat vehicle I think the same thing can be said of your mind like you can

118:23have a date like I have a day a week well I will plop down on the couch and I don't give a I just watch on TV and just relax because I know that I'm redlining it six days a week you know and I'm doing three different things at a time I have three different jobs I'm working out I'm trying to take care of my family I'm writing comedy material and then let me see some documentary round some wacky cult or andwe're whatever the hell I'm gonna watch and I don't feel guilty when I do that because I know that I've kind of air quotes earned it you know I think that that's that's mental management and I think we certainly need we need personal management it comes to the use of electronic devices yeah personal challenges yeah challenge psychology is really interesting to me like you guys do the October thing mm-hmm we're thinking about doing it twice a year now I did this one with with some

119:20of my friends Enoch you are you ready - no we a doesn't get in we did one called the hundred Burpee challenge that haven't done burpees in I did him today because I was coming I was like oh I can do burpees - nice but a hundred for time every day for a hundred days straight and it's you are drenched after going for time a hundred burpees oh yeah ridiculous it's hard when that was the best most disciplined I've ever been working out it was like me and five friends my friend's mom did it - and it was changed my life real it was ridiculous how to change life I felt better than I have ever felt by far and I have it that was like a year ago and I've trailed off but I think like but not just physical challenges like digital ones - and like with the ice bucket thing that was crazy I didn't get in the pot either I'm watching it happen yeah it was just really powerful I'm like I'm gonna throw

120:26water on my head during a drought stop yeah everybody stop mmm this is not fixing anything I want to just write a check yeah I'll give you some money yeah film yourself writing the check yeah stop yeah throw glass water my face when I'm done with the cheque just stop but getting communities to sort of pressure each other into doing things in a positive way in a positive way yeah yeah well that was what the sober October thing kind of turned out to be about and there's a lot of lessons and learning that - you know you learn lessons about your reliance on either substances or things and one of the things that I learned from the sober October challenge the last one was that when you engage in really rigorous physical activities six and seven days a week you don't give a like you don't give a like all that the chatter the internal chatter just goes away

121:21all the negative chatter like it's like taking a pill like god I don't pill it's amazing it's really I mean like em is is a physical energy that's not being expressed because I think the body has certain demands and certain potential and in order to have this certain potential like your potential for athletic output you have to have this you have this energy source right and this this body energy source when not expressed and when you're sitting in a cubicle all day day after day after day it builds this like internal anxious feeling intention and that becomes your normal the the normal line the normal frequency in which you operate you operate under this intense sort of anxious state and you feel like well this is life goddam and I'm depressed or goddammit I'm anxious yeah I got anxiety I got to see a shrink ergo this if you just blow that out every day every day you know you burn

122:23off 2,000 calories and you run for five miles and you do kettlebells and chin-ups and hit the bag for five rounds do that goes away you don't give a and then you get to look at things with real clarity so there was a lesson learned in that and then that lesson was only learned because we decided to challenge each other and push ourselves do you think it would be too draconian to have like a company hundred burpee a day yes yeah you know why man I just don't think you should tell people what to do they their job as the job and then everything else is like a cult you know it's like no we're only gonna wear white robes we don't need anything about white robes oh okay when do you start everybody and taking their money yeah that always comes next yeah cuz it's in vain yeah you can't you can't force people it's like being convinced but it wouldn't be a bad well the problem is if

123:15you were you could you can have some sort of a company-wide challenge we're known as like if you no no because that's what I'm saying is like you would shame them into doing it or you would you know somehow or another make it seem like they would advance in the company more if they played along it could be yeah I'm not gonna do it I mean because it feels so good yes yes well you should encourage it but I almost feel like yeah but you don't want to shame people like there's some brilliant people that don't work out at all they're brilliant but they just whatever for whatever reason that's their choice you know it should be your choice to go out like Christopher Hitchens just drink every day and smoke cigarettes and one day you get cancer and you're like well you know I mean this is like he being heat the way he described it like burning the candle at both ends it gave a beautiful

124:12brilliant light yeah he wouldn't have had those ideas if he had done it another way it's very possible that's true and all most of the madness that we see in in brilliant artists like it's very possible that that man this would not be expressed if they had their together there was something that sam harris was saying the other day on your show just about about the free well stuff and i think that it that connects to this information theory kind of thing so if we're just sort of a conglomerate of these actions and we're like following the actions through our body and unique ways I mean do you accept his theory unfree well well it's not his theory or it's a conventional theory of determinism that a lot of people are embracing and I think there's definitely some merit to it however you and I both know that you choose whether or not you decide to do something right you choose

125:12whether or not you did like someone says someone says something to you that's kind of shitty and you choose whether you decide to email them back something shitty like you have that initial impulse like well hey man you you have that initial impulse you think on it you sleep on it but why are you thinking on it and sleeping on it are you doing that because of determinism are you doing that because you're trying to be a better person and are you trying to be a better person because of all the factors that played out in your life like environment genes life experience all those things right it mean it's a really good it's a really just good discussion so do you own the words that you're saying right now it's a good question Larry Lessig who's on here the other day yeah you guys didn't even talk about this but he basically is the founders of Creative Commons in this

125:54whole licensing structure for content like what we're saying right now you know this is gonna be licensed I don't know how you and I xym swarm right here this discussion it's gonna be licensed and you yeah okay I mean you're I think you're licensing it in a certain way okay so you have the ability to license it however you want right you could say hey anyone can take this and cut it up and remix it or you could say now it's locked down but he helped create this whole licensing array of like six different licenses one says you can do absolutely anything you want with this another says you can share it but you can't make money off it there's a handful and so the free will stuff is connected to how we're dealing with information and like if you cuz if you if you think realistically we don't own what we're saying we're a part of it right we're a conduit we're a unique

126:49conduit so I don't think it aligns with how the universe works to really be locking down information I think that it makes sense probably in certain short-term business but you know I think we have to open it up to what's really going on what do you mean by like locking down information like like source code mm like classified files like our content like music like video and now how does this do how does this connect to determinism and whether or not you have free will because it's a are are you the creator of your information hmm what you are certainly if you put in the work let's say you decide to write a book I mean you put hundreds and hundreds of hours into this book and edit this book and then you release the book and someone says no you didn't you didn't create that you're you're a product of determination and I'm gonna just steal your book that's an

127:54electoral theft intellectual theft is real it's it's certainly real in terms of a creation of content right if you are a stand-up comedian and someone takes your countless hours of work steals it that's intellectual that for sure and then they try to pawn it off as their own through their own selfish needs their selfish means that's why attribution is the key part of the creative commons-licensed watcher always saying if you come up with a joke you know it came from here but what if it's a profit like say if you wrote a book and I say hey this is a great book written by Bill up and give me five bucks for it I'm putting up on my side you to it that I mean here's the thing I I know if somebody makes all the money off of your book because they have a better platform to sell your book and they don't give it to you at all and you wrote the book you spent all the time you did all the work

128:43I would for certain content that I create completely give it away that sounds worse guys never written a book I've earned a book did you I mean I've written a lot of content yeah but have you written I give away I give i've not published but okay yeah the book that you sell like if you were an author let's say if you were I'm not saying people should be forced to do this I'm just saying that this I think is how creativity happens and III just don't people deserve to make money on their content right and you deserve to own your stuff but I don't think that that's actually how the universe works and I don't think it's acceptable to say oh free you know free will doesn't exist I own your content but yeah that's why I'm struggling to see how they're connected because if you're not the originator then you're not the owner that's a weird argument yes you are the

129:46originator Stephen King wrote all Stephen you are you're the unique conduit you are the originator of that specific configuration of information right and you deserve to be able to do everything you're saying with it I'm just saying that it's it's complex well it is complex if you're saying that all human beings essentially all of your actions have been determined by a lot of factors that are outside of your control whether it's genetics again life experience education all the different factors your environment is that what's causing you to put out a brilliant record it's part of it right but you I maybe you have 50 maybe you have 50% everything else has 50% or there's weed I don't know what the percentage is but if you're a musician and someone like Spotify comes along and says boot D do you make that dude so we're just gonna put it on Spotify and make millions and give you pennies

130:52that's not what I'm advocating I'm saying you said anyone uses the Blues well more than that more than that there's yeah yeah there's real plagiarism so but that doesn't that doesn't mean that those aren't great records that's true it is true yeah I mean it's a Led Zeppelin this legit grey area you know I found out this bill burr called me up and left this really disturbed message he was like really bummed out when he watched and bill's a musician he's a drummer and when he saw videos of Led Zeppelin music played and the band that used to open for Led Zeppelin we played it on the podcast we were like holy like they just stole stuff they just stole giant chunks and riffs and you know and and I mean they made it better I guess but yeah but that's a different thing than Stephen King's but why because Stephen King had to spend countless hours in front of his laptop

131:55trying to go over each and every sentence and each and every paragraph and suck you in when all this work no they stole stuff dude they sold certain phrases but you think he didn't use a single phrase anywhere in any of his books that he didn't pull from somebody certainly have yeah he certainly has I don't think it's the same though I think it's similar Led Zeppelin what they also had to spend countless hours recording that performance to get it to the level of Awesomeness ya heard mm-hmm sure that wasn't easy to do they just did a ass moving those people yeah if you no matter what you should be attributing if you're taking ideas put in the footnotes why does it hurt it doesn't make your art worse because then they'd have to admit they stole the riff for stairway to heaven from their opening band and then people would go Wyatt and then they would see it then they would look at Led

132:49Zeppelin differently but you know human beings are severely flawed I don't know if I buy that with this this idea that you're saying in terms of like authors creating content I'm not trying to sell something no I know but if they are I don't think someone should be able to copy their stuff and sell it I don't think they should either but I think using you should be able to do you think okay you should be able to decide so view the content creator you should okay I agree with that yeah yeah it's it is I mean obviously I play devil's advocate a lot but that's how you get to the bottom of these conversations but it is a very complicated issue the complicated issue of who you are and why you are who you are and who you are at this moment versus who you are a decade ago or two decades ago it's it's all very weird you know I mean you go back and think about

133:40stuff from high school and you're like Jesus what am I really even that person like I think about like I've talked to my sister about stuff that happened when we were in high school hey you remember that guy and he said to say hi and like was that even me don't even know that person like is that really me because I got if I if I see them again I'll be like oh yeah oh yeah we had 10th grade science together oh yeah huh crazy like I ran into a guy from my high school like a couple of weeks ago it was weird it was so weird you know he remembered some strange story from English class and I was like wow you remember that like how weird and while he was talking I'm like is that even really me like is even really talking about me because I don't have any connection to the stuff that he's saying and I understand that he has it's a vague distant ghost-like memory in his

134:29mind of some some slide images that he's pieced together that he recognizes as a past interaction I mean it's strange it's super strange to like in you know 50 or 20 45 whatever you know if your body can be replaced one piece at a time yeah as time goes on then your body literally you could survive but your body is gonna be like almost completely diffic like that the boat analogy was it was a Graham Hancock that used that analogy somebody used this analogy of certain boats that are like really ancient boats that are on display and every single piece of them from the original boat has been replaced because they rotted away and you're like okay what am I looking at what is this really yeah and that's kind of us in and once that becomes a physical thing you know I met the guy who got his arm and his leg bitten off by shark you ever see that guy's got carbon-fiber arms and legs

135:33john joseph brought him to the comedy store I met him at the UFC when you gave him tickets oh shake his hand super super nice guy but he's got this let's like a carbon-fiber hand and forearm that moves around like like a hand he shakes your hand and then he walks with no limp he's got this carbon fiber I mean I think from the knee down the shark bit his leg off it's fascinating you know you're like okay they're still a person you're still here and what what there is there's a gentleman right there Paul de Gelder Paul de Gelder super nice guy but his uh that is a fake arm that he's got from his arm being chopped off by a shark so from see where it is from his right thigh like mid thigh down and his right elbow down all that chewed off by a shark and he's still jacked look at him no excuses and that's gonna keep becoming more biologic right well what the real concern is members

136:36six-million-dollar man remember that television show no you're younger than me there was a show called the Six Million Dollar Man and the Six Million Dollar Man he had been in some sort of a pilot accident and the gentlemen we can rebuild him we can make him better than he was better stronger faster and they given these Bionic parts they gave him a bionic arm and they gave him Bionic legs and he run like 60 miles an hour you'd run like crazy fast and these artificial arms and artificial leg then they had a Bionic Woman same except she was hot and she had artificial legs and I think she could see things and other people couldn't see like one day I mean that was cool would you'd look at that like wow look we could do like he got in a fight with Bigfoot on the TV show it's really stupid but one day people are going to be given the option do you want to come now maybe you want to keep your

137:26legs or do you want to get these legs that allow you to jump over a building I'm curious if there's really like superhuman projects that are going on where where people actually can have these abilities they you know we know that with classified information it's just we know what that their stuff we don't know there are extraordinary projects mm-hmm so you know this being in the future I feel like there's a disconnect between the state of technology on the planet earth right now with like what the public has access to with what the you know black projects have access to and that is really not cool because it's not fair for Humanity to not understand what is going on I think that's true but I also think that most of the state-of-the-art stuff is it's peer-reviewed right I mean there's so many different people working on these different technologies like CERN

138:30you know they're working on the Large Hadron Collider or anything else there's so many different people working on it the the people that are the forefront of the technology list they're all gobbled up by the dark government they're you know they're they're cut the people at the head of the line kind of understand where the technology is that currently for sure for you and I we don't know what the going on but I think you're right I think there's probably some government programs where they scoop up the the wisest and the brightest and you know they got Oppenheimer you know and got him to develop the Manhattan Project there's probably some going on right now what do you think's happening what do you know bill tell me I want there to be huge Freedom of Information Act reform i that they're there we know there are trillions going into the black budget hmm so a Trevor Paglen wrote a

139:22cool book called I think it was him called blank spots on the map and it just talks a lot about the black budget and I mean we so we know it exists we know I don't know but it's it's holding us back but maybe I'm not saying everything should be shared because what if you have like a bio weapon right Rhino so we need to understand I think that we need to push the threshold with what the public has access to like we need to go way deeper it's complicated yeah it really is right you know it really is um I really appreciate your perspective and I really appreciate your point of view and I really appreciate your ethics and what you're what you're working towards with Minds and that's one of the reasons what I wanted to talk to you I think it is important and as much as I around and play devil's advocate I do that to try to get to you know how you're thinking and why and

140:15whether or not you've had these arguments in your own mind but I think ultimately I've said this before and don't know if it makes sense again I'm not that smart I really wonder if there's there's a bottlenecks for progress that are going to be that we're going to run into and I think ultimately information is one of the big ones and information also in a lot of ways is money you know I mean when we think of money we're thinking of ones and zeros that are being moved around on bank accounts it's data I mean it's attributed to different people and you get to do more things because you have more of these numbers and more of these things but what is it really it's not gold based anymore it's not a physical mature material object that you're coveting now it's some weird thing and it's kind of like information on a database and what if we get to a certain point in time and I sort of feel

141:17like in this weird vague tract way we're moving towards this with all it's one of the things that I want to really step back and wonder about this trend toward socialism and and social democratic thinking I wonder what that is and I honestly think that we're moving towards this idea that hey you know we've got a lot of problems that could be cured if you moved some of that money around and but but should you be able to move some of that money around and when what happens if that money becomes something different than what if people start developing social currency instead of financial currency would have your ability to do things was based on how much you actually put in I mean we're assuming right we assume that the way we do things now where if you want to buy a car you have to have thirty five thousand dollars that's how much a Mustang cost and you gotta bring

142:09it to the bank and that's not and you prove alone but what if we get to a time in the future where it's not these pieces of paper that give you material objects but rather your own actions and deeds provide you a social currency that allows you to go on vacations or allows you to eat at restaurants it allows you to do things and there's this running tally that's not outside of the realm of possibility no I think it rewards systems within everything that we're using are gonna are gonna rise up I mean that that's that's what we're already kind of doing I mean we reward tokens for yeah for activity we're gonna see that rise up in more things that we're doing but what I'm saying is if we're doing it in if it's a social currency and that your own personal behavior allows you to access more freedoms or or more goods or more things it would encourage positive behavior and

143:06community based behavior because that would be the only way to advance I mean obviously there's a long time down the line but when the first caveman you know traded the first shiny rock for the first spearhead you know whatever it was that they did that started this whole inevitable trend towards money this is not something that has to be this way forever you know and I wonder when we're looking at the distribution of information which is arguably arguably it's never never been like what we have today there's never been a time in human history where everyone had so much access to information that used to have to pay for he used to have to go to schools you have to used to have to earn your way to the position where you could open the very books that had all this information in at night just get it off your phone it's instant and I this is a whole different way of interfacing with

143:56information I think this is gonna affect higher learning Institute's I think it's going to affect a lot of different things but I wonder if this all can be applied ultimately someday maybe not in our generation but someday to money that people start using social currency and that social currency is going to be almost like we have some sort of a database of social currency in this country a distributed database yeah as long as the government can be running on open systems I think the the reason we struggle with you know trusting the government to distribute wealth is because it's it's so inefficient we want to be decided where it goes well they're also corrupt as I mean there's no no doubt about that I mean at the end of the day that's a giant problem period if the people that are deciding what we can and can't do with information are also corrupt which I mean there's laws that

144:52allow them to be corrupt but doesn't mean that they're not corrupt right I feel like every politician the only politicians that I would support at this point I want to be pulling us in a direction like that is making their own position irrelevant basically building open secure voting systems that allow the planet or the country to decide and vote on what we're doing I mean I you know I just think that we need more accurate representation of the consciousness of the communities and it shouldn't just be these singular people deciding for everybody when we should have we have the tech right and by the time they get in there they're so compromised by the special interest groups that are helping them out and all the different people that are contributing to the campaign fund do you see anybody like that on the horizon I think that there are not specifically

145:56right now I don't I don't see anyone talking about open systems and secure voting and completely changing the way that we're making decisions but I think that's probably just because they don't know about it I think there would be a lot of politicians who would be ok with that or want us to move in that direction but I think we need more technologists scientists in these positions building the things that we're using yeah and with an ethic of freedom yeah yeah all right dude great conversation man I really appreciate it tell people how they can get on mines how they can check it out and you haven't do you guys have an app as well as uh we have an app you go to mind Sackheim slash mobile to get the app we're not in Google Play we are still in the Apple Store Google Play won't let you in no how come at the nipple but find me - calm slash out man hopefully

146:58we'll get you on there yeah well I'm on I just yeah I haven't posted anything all right but you sent me Megan yes I thank you appreciate it - thanks buddy thank you hell yeah sir come on man it was really fun I think we got a lot out of it thanks great