Russell Brand

00:10I'm gonna do what you're doing what you doing over there round what is this well actually I was thinking about making sure that I'm in a position mentally and spiritually to talk openly and clearly you're gonna be strong about it it's not like this there's this thing that the meditation thing where you're just gently touching your fingers together yeah right I suppose then I'm looking at being bodied as well tense like a present you're like a hybrid yeah that's right that's what we've got become these days yeah a little bit of both a little bit of spiritual a little bit of warrior I don't think we've got to survive in this world yeah you know yeah so you can't be all ethereal it can't be it can't all be right in the consciousness yeah otherwise you'll never get anything done mmm right you'll just be constantly dealing with other people's wants and wishes and you know I'm just gonna make

01:09the decision and be one of those cave people unless you because like sometimes I think about that like this put on robes meditate only that only live in the consciousness but given my extreme levels of attachment I've experienced over the years two physical things I don't think that's my path you know army I'm in the world I'm selling books I'm having a baby I'm caring about what people think about me I'm wondering if I'm gonna be in a film I'm dealing with the world being a man in the world being the type of man I am it's not like I know I'll just life myself off in a cave well there's a certain amount of attraction that I think we all have to this ideal I came out I'm just gonna get away from it all but the problem is you it's going on whether you like it or not it's happening so even if you're not there so you should probably be there just to go what is this what is this even in

01:58Christianity Christ says in the world but not of it yeah so like for trying not to be defined and determined by other people's opinions of you the systems and structures that are set up around you particularly if you question those systems and structure and think well I don't trust that system I don't agree with that you know how you don't want to be defined by that but the fact is we are here and I think there are certain people you know that do have a monastic tendency that should be meditating that aren't equipped for the material world and one of the great things that makes me sad about our times is if you don't have economic and productive value then you're a nobody you know there are some people that don't know how to resource themselves you found a way of turning yourself into an economy of creating a kingdom I found my own way if I all right I can make my

02:46mental illness work for me people's money is crazy you know but not everyone gets those kind of breaks or has that kind of skill set yeah I mean obviously there's some people that really do thrive on that monastic lifestyle there's have you ever seen there's a vice documentary on this guy his name is Hein mo he lives in the believer's the eastern part of the of Alaska he's in this this Arctic region as a there's a Vice piece called hind Mo's artic adventure that's it Arctic refuge hi mo hei mo hi Mo's hi mo Korth is his name and this guy is a variant he lives in the elastic Arctic National Wildlife Refuge hmm 100 miles from the nearest human and he lives there with his wife and he lives in this little log house that he's sort of built himself and he thrives up there it's very strange because we're attracted to these people like like to just go okay what do you do

03:47all day man like what's what's your life like and you know do you miss people he has like a VCR and he plays old movies and it's a fascinating thing because I think when you watch someone like that you see you'd always run it through your head like could I live like that like is this is this guy happier and he says he is I mean he says that the the hunter-gatherer lifestyle that he lives is like uniquely attractive to people and and uniquely satisfying and it's something that we don't get in our everyday world so we're never like completely even whereas he is just running around fishing and honey caribou and stuff well we're fitting in with some ones I else's idea of what life should be the system under within which most of us operate is not this in what I would do if if I had a free start you know I don't mean just personally me Russell I mean anthropologically yeah

04:43we've designed to be in a bad nomadic tribes people when my podcast I do as a suggestion by you I had on there's a guest you Val know her re he wrote that book sapiens and he does a lot of anthropology stuff and says about like that you know that we're designed to live in tribes of about 75 200 people or at least that's what chimpanzees do when they get bigger there's normally a conflict and a separation and a splitting that nomadic tribes will follow the food sources that were available to them so in a way if you can replicate that or get close to that in some way of your own in your own life it would make sense that it would make you happy and we've like when you're saying how about the guy is a hundred miles away from the nearest person I thought people there's people that live in suburbia that mentally are a hundred miles away from the nearest person

05:32you're just really your life is you sit in front of a screen you don't connect with people you've not spoke to people for days you know I think about this when people make these desperate attempts to connect through doggin is a thing in my country where people meet up in lay buyers and just have anonymous sex masturbating public dogging it's a uniquely British phenomena Joe dogging well welcome welcome to Britain dogging is people go to lay by is quite layered buys and it's like could be sort of suburban it's a bit like swinging you know but it's like you pull up in a car with you know this is I've never done this I'm just clarifying you pull up in a car with a partner I could be you know I think it's kind of heterosexual being or home at you can do it we're you know wherever your persuasion is this particular place of a particular people and you know the lights go on and people

06:14jerk off and you know you can have sex so thinking these are desperate attempts to find some connection to nature to sort of drop anchor and hit your primal self to get into who you are because you wake up and you've got to do your job and you've got a screen in front of you and you're a consumer and you're not living in the world anymore you want some visceral experience one of the things I get from this in your podcast is like oh you're a person that's questing after with the whether it's the archery or the dmt looking for what is it that we're meant to be as humans and I'm doing that in my own way having unfortunately written off substances because my stupid stupid mistakes in my twenties I can't go into the dmt iOS couple as much as I would like to and I want to find how is it that I be me in this world and yeah I don't think it is through isolationism I don't think it's

07:00like right I'm going to try and get an Ireland and this I'm not going to participate it's like right what you know we are nature we created this this is a form of nature our civilizations our manifestations but is it the best we can do can we change it can we pull back from what seems more than ever like some kind of apocalypse with you know your current president no disrespect them with our country Breck's is sort of like a weird time of fracture and the manifestation of ugliness stuff bubbling up a fully like dark unconscious matter bubbling up man I was in the airport traveling to here and I was in New York and like just the people that are working the lines when you put your cases through that people felt seemed heavy and low and like because if you're British Donald Trump just something that you know you kind of make jokes about you hope that there isn't going to be a

07:45nuclear war but he seems like a sort of a comic figure but here I've sort of sent are this pine know there's a lot of people that obviously like him enough to have made him president the United States but I think even in those cases he speaks to a particular rage something that wasn't being addressed the failure of neoliberalism the lies of the last 30 years of a kind of politics that was just about management and not about giving people truth I don't know Joe I like you know like our individual journeys how can our individual journeys inform our social and tribal journeys and our national journeys and is there even hope anymore for such a thing as the United States of America or Great Britain or should we start looking at smaller projects because you know if the United States of America and Great Britain lead to colonialism mass capitalism consumerism ecological

08:29meltdown if that's what you believe in then maybe we need to look at breaking down some of these great institutions I wonder if what's going on is that our biology in what we've been sort of programmed to for the thousands of years of living these tribal existences where we in these travel existences we had these small groups of 50 to 60 or 100 people Plus that this is the new thing and part of our chaos is are trying to adapt to the new thing it's almost inevitable we've created this incredible way where we can get food to people so more people had babies more people stayed in these areas where they're not growing food and then you have you're dealing with these massive numbers of people you know la 20 plus million and we're trying to figure out like how do we get along how do all these different ideologies coincide how do how do we how do we cooperate how do

09:22we how do we figure out what what to do with our waste I don't figure out what to do with what we're doing to the environment you know how do we figure out who's right you know is it the doom and gloom people correct or that we're gonna be okay people correct you know and what's the right attitude to take about this many of those significant movements that you're talking about agriculture and industrialization and urbanization agriculture obviously meaning food available on mass industrialization products available on mass urbanization people living together on mass none of these things are good for the people on mass they're good for a select strata of people that primarily benefit you know like the act they say that the average diet of human beings got worse after agriculture before that varied diet people with loads of stuff after agriculture you're on potatoes now

10:18peasant you're on rice now peasant yeah you know so like I think each of these movements are to benefit a particular aspect of the system a particular class a particular strata particular economic class and I mean I mean you ain't doing bad we're relatively near the top but we're not the engineers there are corporations and elites to use that very popular word these days that benefit from things being like this when you're saying is there a way that we can all coalesce and get along in urban conurbations or 20 million people no because the power is too centralized and families to bring down mostly we are getting along mostly most mostly we are getting along in these weird groups and even with us whatever static that we have with each other he with the weird weirdness of it all the diffusion of responsibility that comes in these jack antic groups and you see things

11:07happening you just get away from them we still for the most part of getting along in this weird new world I think you're right in a sense Joe like I'm not I'm not a demon gloom guy I think human beings are really really beautiful and brilliant and like I don't think God this is such a mess what I think is is that we're trying to inhabit systems that are not designed for us to live within and I think that yet people are getting on but I also think don't you think there's a lot of tension in cities that everyone's one right turn or one traffic light away from getting out their cars smashing someone in the face you can like feel it bubbling under and that in that the feeling I had in the airport is that the people that were working there well under undue stress that is just one anecdote I feel like we're being forced to live on a particular aspect of our consciousness a

11:52particular bandwidth of where we're kind of a bit frightened for a little bit too much desire and I'm talking about most people with again I'm not poor no more so I'm able to create but like money creates distance isn't it money's like you can off problems I'm getting in a nice car and I'm out of here but like I remember the feeling and a lot of people are living like that where the tensions up in their face and so yes I agree that people do muddle along and that's I think shows you that we're not as in a Darwinistic model or some of the ideas derived from Darwinism rather like The Selfish Gene and the Richard Dawkins idea that people just want to survive and we just want to kill them and you know and this is what propels us forward I think no we are coat we're cooperative collaborative artistic imaginative beautiful people but we've created systems around the worst aspects

12:39of our nature greed selfishness this is what capitalism and consumerism thrive on and they're so all-encompassing our culture's are domed by them and we can't see beyond them we exist within them and I feel like that if we were to break down those kind of systems live in smaller assemblies smaller groups where power is as close to the people the effects as possible where people would vote on well this is how we want to use our resources this is where how we want to run our street our hospital our prisons have schools our systems this is how we want them to run then things would really really slow down but man what's the rush you know things would slow down get a lot of slower but I think that people would be empowered and you wouldn't have and power filtered to a small group of people no I think you're definitely right and I think you should probably start a cult and how to keep the

13:28resources in the community I think that also this discontent that we have is a sign that people being upset with how this is and the momentum of the way things have sort of established themselves today that we this is like what we need this is the momentum and the the motivation that we need to try to improve upon things I think we're uniquely qualified to do that today because we're we're talking about it so you could be the doom and gloom guy today I'll be rose-colored glasses so I think that this tension that we have in this even like a guy like Donald Trump or brexit I think with a good thing about those things is that people are looking at what they don't like about the way we're running the world what they don't like about our culture and they're getting upset about it and hopefully we'll sort it out that way and that being completely content with

14:14everything and everybody just sitting on the couch and smiling all day it doesn't lead to necessarily lead to progress I think we're more informed now than we've ever been before so I would hope that with our ability to communicate and being more informed now that we have the potential to move towards a better society I agree with that might but I also think that we what's important in the world is who has power power being the ability to affect change I'm not one of those people that like I'm not like baffled by what happened with Trump I feel oh there's an indication that a good many people feel extremely angry and disenfranchised the same as brick city in our country and I recognize and I understand it similarly I don't think oh wouldn't everything be zippity-doo-dah if Hillary Clinton was president of the United States that was all the way stuff was going that's what

15:01the previous 30 years has been like in your country my country managerial politicians with no vision we've seen the failure of recent sort of kind of promises that were offered by in administration's recently I think that what Trump is what brixi is is a big you to the system but we want something different but and for me in a way these things are good because I believe the people that feel those things are right and I would like to see more power delivered to ordinary people genuine change happen you know but I think it won't happen unless you sort of look at well what where is that power really the power really is with people that this system works for a sort of a particular corporate elite a particular straw or of I don't know politicians and bureaucrats and and I hope that what these of cataclysms of recent recent years lead to is devolution of power new systems

15:53because even in the time I've been in your country on this trip Joe you know there's been a mad sort of massacre that you know that's it's sort of for me is that and this tells me that this is a sick society not you know I'm not oh and Britain's wonderful of course you know we went round plundering the world but crazy crazy we've got enough problems of our own but like for me what is causing this why is this happening you know for me I don't see in isolation I don't believe in lone wolf I think the system is coughing up these mad events and there are patterns and there's things that we can read and there are things that we can change to improve it well he's certainly a part of the guy that was that shooter is certainly a part of our society you know and so if we have a sick culture you know I mean that there's there's evidence of it I mean is it not it's not a completely sick culture I

16:36mean we don't we're not all dying right we're not all we don't know all have this disease but some of us most certainly do so this thing that you're saying like that people looked at Donald Trump as a big you to system the tipping over the applecart I think that's absolutely what people were hoping for and then there's a bunch of people that just love saying you mmm there's a bunch of people that went you is flying and then you're seeing a lot of that with Donald Trump supporters as well you're seeing people that they're looking for some excitement they're looking for some fun you're looking you're seeing people that enjoy chaos you know maybe they're trapped in cubicles and they're just completely frustrated by this grind this is day-to-day grind like literally being their sole being ground down on a cheese grade every day being forced to stay under these fluorescent lights and those

17:28small little box dealing with human resources in the corporate environment and they're going crazy and anything that happens that that tips that over it's all Fight Club right they're just gonna get punched in the face they're looking to go crazy then there's a lot of that as well you know but I think this chaos the worst parts about it there's no good to right there's no good to mass shootings but what comes out of all these things is the discussions and the intense realization that we have real problems there's real problems with the way we're communicating with each other and I don't necessarily know if the solution I mean it would certainly be a solution for those involved if you get a hundred amazing people and everybody just starts a co-op in Maine somewhere yeah it'd be great for those involved but for for all of us I mean even while that I mean it's almost like

18:14that monastic last time we're talking about if everybody just isolates it's all going on around you if you put your phone in the drawer and never use it again the grid you get your water from a spring all those people out there is still drinking water with antidepressants in it and you know there's a bunch of smog the people have to deal with there's a bunch of problems with hurricanes now because the waters warmer there's there's it's inevitable it's inevitable that this is all I mean you can decide hey man I only have a hundred years in this planet fun.this I'm just gonna ride this out but if you do make a kid you have and I've got a bunch of them I mean you what's gonna happen to them you know what we have to think about what happens with them as well well we're all this global community really yes we are and that's why I don't go for the hedonic lifestyle of our it I've got a

18:59century right let's line up some blow jobs I tried that route ice cream here blow jobs because I like you believe in the possibility of change and I've been like in mention again I start a podcast because you said you know podcast and it's a good fun what I do or mine is I get like cuz I'm doing this university degree religion in global politics in fact this thing happened what happened to me really is I hit 40 and a four right now I know a bunch of things aren't going to work the ice cream the the attention the privilege heroin crack all these things are control coffers not working I can't control them I've got to find a way through this and oddly peculiar it's a sort of a personal version of spirituality that's what I've found William Blake the great English poet says each artist must find his own religion we have to find our own way what works for you is not

19:59gonna be the same as what works for me you know there are ways that we are collective but there are ways where we are individuals so I feel right are going after educate myself I'm gonna have to do things that mean something to me a big part of that was like right me in doing you know in my own small fragile brittle way Brazilian Jujitsu I never done stuff like that before so going like and deal right live in your body being there and go to Genesis Jimmy mala I give them a drop cause all these guys are such big fans of your show you know and I go there and I do sessions we've Kris that titanium skeleton of a man that black belt twists me up he can cause pain in ways that's what how was he even doing that and like when I try to do the stuff back it doesn't work or puts me in my body in a different way learning the history of the ideas that are in in religion the way that the

20:41distinction between politics and religion is and sort of an imaginary distinction when people talk about religious violence versus secular violence they're saying their violence is irrational and our violence is okay I've learned some amazing stuff in the last few years and as a result of that the kind of guests I get on my podcast like this guy Khan Ross mate you'd love him on yours actually he was a diplomat in the Foreign Service around the time of the weapons of mass destruction and 9/11 he believed in the system he's like they all he wanted was to work in the foreign service he knew they were lying while it was going on he's our know this thing I believed in is not true like he's being asked to participate in it he come out of foreign office and believes that no centralized power can ever work we have to have devolved power assemblies anarchism is the word anarchy

21:30doesn't mean chaos Anarchy means devolve power to the smallest possible groups that there's no power between you and I and Jamie that we're equal in here and we should run the space according to what all of us think as a group that hospitals schools or institutions community should be run on a democratic basis you don't need like you know minimize the amount of centralized Authority Vineet roads to be run their needs to be some security in all those companies but it should be minimized where possible that's what this guy came away with and he explained it real well to me and what I like increasingly what I think is that when you talk about that may the cheese grater on the soul that's the that's the phenomena of the West you know that's what people in our countries are going through is alienation is talked about like in one of the things another guest taught me about Marxism that Marxist

22:15theory of the way that he criticized the brokedown capitalism how operates he weren't just talking about the economics although Marx was a great economist he goes the capitalism will lead to individuals feeling worthless and meaningless because they'll just be cogs in a machine it will break people's spirits and that is what's happened because people are not the only thing that's happened go on it's also created incredible technology and medical innovation all sorts of different ways that we can make the world easier do you think we could keep those things without the cheese grater soulmate because I think we could I think we could all the stuff now we could progress with it we could have different fairer ways of doing that and people like I think people kill that conversation too early because yeah you know because it's working for enough people yeah they're

22:57throwing out the baby with the bath wall I think so yeah that's what the the whole thing of Marxism is is the abandonment of capitalism and so let's go this way but you know you look at what happened when people adopted Marxism and left that led to the death of millions and millions of people as capitalism in a lot of places well yeah more deaths but it's not reported in the same way but I'm not saying that we all want to live in communist you know or the Soviet Union or China terrible terrible things happen there but that's what we always we always revert to you know we say well is there not is it not possible that we could first start they didn't do it properly they ignored it everybody says but no one's ever done it properly I mean we have more freedom today human beings have more freedom more freedom to behave more freedom to communicate more freedom

23:37to excel with this capitalist society that we're criticizing today than any human beings that have ever lived ever there's a lot of negative about it a hundred percent but it's also there's a lot of benefits a positive about it there are a lot of soulless people that are just counting numbers and throwing them on a hard drive somewhere and buying yachts that's it that's true - that doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to evolve and aspire I don't think evolution is finished I know there's loads of good things about capitalism puffing let's carry on let's see what we can do is could we be doing this better I believe that we could I believe that this is taken as about as far as it could go because of certain ecological imperatives and in the spiritual thing that you deftly mentioned that is destroying the souls of a lot of people and it's not necessary yeah when is that

24:17you know the war we were promised in the 50s and the technological revolution will mean your work I have an hour a day no one delivered on that and people just went now actually carry on working and will siphon the profit uphill and we could have leisure based societies but I think that as long as there is a form of centralized power people at the center of that power will not share it I think you have to go all right this community is gonna be run by those people this community is gonna be run by those people and that also solves a lot of the other problems that are defining our times if people seem to want different things some people want to say absolutely no homosexuality some people say we want total sexual freedom some people we want to live in a what would be called a religious extreme why some people say atheist well that can't exist under one banner I don't

25:02mean the problem of people saying no homosexuality is that they're deciding about freedom with other people's freedoms to to exist for other people's freedoms to behave and to express themselves the way they want to and the real problem with that is a lot of the people that want to control other people's freedom they were really the reason why they're doing is they're trying to suppress their own urges and discreetly right one of the things I'm most interested in is how much of our activity is unconscious activity so much with doing things we don't know why we're doing it the book here that I'm promoting recovery I written this book it's my version to 12-step some of it last night you're in it yeah the 12 steps is a journey from unconsciousness to consciousness that's what essentially is you'd unconsciously pursue pleasure you unconsciously pursue patterns

25:48because you don't know you're doing it if you're a smack it or a crack it like me eventually it gets you into such trouble you have to address it but most people hover along on the cheese grater level lives of quiet desperation never realizing hang on a minute it is possible to be happy it is possible to be contented move towards nature you while yourself doing it you're going right this is what I'm good at this is what I'm doing and note the way you run your life I know you don't no one telling you what to do you don't wanna compromise you want to learn all of this fascinating stuff and fulfill yourself you don't want a bit like so you've created a road for yourself to do that but not everybody can and more people could and I think they'll always be resistance they'll always be corruption but it's in me like I don't I shouldn't spend another second condemning Donald

26:31Trump because I've got an R soul in me I like I'm a greedy person that wants attention and wants people to love me by my book and take care my interest but your introspective thinking has led you to stop that path I mean that's that's essentially you you saw the flaws in hedonistic behavior and you hit the pause button you're thinking about and that's very attractive to people because we all see that in ourselves you know and when you talk about like what what I do and what I've done the the most important thing that I've ever done is surround myself with people that I love and they have a really good group of friends and interesting people and that that leads to more like they find more interesting people it branches out and spreads out and then people listening to this they become like-minded they pursue their their happiness they pursue their their actual desires what would interest

27:20them I mean what what what they would like to do for their for their career for their life for their their craft what do you enjoy like find that thing surround yourself with like-minded people and I think we all get fuel from the people that were around and it's one of the most underrated aspects of being a person in a community is if you're around a bunch of ambitious people who are creative who are open-minded and honest you are inspired by that and you seek to have like like-minded thoughts yeah but I think that's another one in the corner the against column for disappearing into the cave and being a hermit or a monk or whatever because I heard someone say we exist in dialectic which means we exist in relationship and conversation with one another who are you without other people you're nobody in it in an aluminium capsule floating through space what does your personality

28:12matter you're nothing you know so you're right about that you know that we exist in these relationships with one another and I suppose what I have sought out um is to connect with people on the level of the damage on the level of the wound on the level of the vulnerability not in a pessimistic this you know ring ourselves out into the gut away know there's recognized that we're flawed but that together we can create supportive compassionate loving communities and for me the the stein point for that is a life that is predicated on spirituality as opposed to materialism it's predicated on what my conscious and the Stars when I stop thinking what my consciousness when I meditate no I don't have the advantage of the DMT experience in the art West got fascinated by it listen to it she tried Kundalini you know but you do that well have you ever had any sort

29:01of psychedelic experience through doing Kundalini because the people that I know that are really into it they say that they can achieve people that I know that have done DMT I'll say they can achieve the same sort of states Wow with Kundalini well they're doing it well Kundalini is one of the things I believe in this particular tattoo at my finger by Marc Mahoney of shamrock tattoos Los Angeles's the Kundalini serpent as drawn by Carl Jung one of the great early figures of psychoanalysis that the fire in the belly the animal energy of survival the energy of creativity the serpent energy the reptile energy that's deep in our DNA when we were lizards when we were creatures that crawled on our belly and lives in a steel can be coronated the serpent the snake within can become crowned it can become royal your animal desires can become royal and I think the

29:48Kundalini as I understand it is about harnessing those energies bringing it up I do like yoga and I do have pretty tripped-out experiences where I feel like oh my god I'm awake but I am NOT me I am NOT my thoughts this sense of transcendence and only for them retrospectively you know in the moment there's no need to register it it's only off to think wow I lost myself there do you feel sneaking to be honest fingerings become less significant half my life fingers are very weird it seems so rude the expression fingering it's a dirty business it's not functional no like it there's no need for it in the adult world like it it's not for a lot of people lovely people ask for it I say do it yeah that's not what I think give them the snake hand that reptile right over open the chakras is this the right moment to tell you I dreamt about you last night knowing it's a risk always to tell

30:45someone that you dreamt about them because it's once it's out there it's out there so and particularly you know check it out so we were in this dream we were in some sort of semi organic forest type world but they had an industrial component somewhat labyrinthian make this real component like that is if you know like the walks how they've made the most of the woods you know they've build little huts and stuff and maybe they have little I don't know if the walks have enough a couple of thousand years maybe they built little Ewok trains I don't know what they would have done who knows they were lovely cuddly little guys so anyway there was a sovereign it's small industrial component to it we were somewhere within that world and we were doing Brazilian Jujitsu let's use the word rolling now there was a sort this is how we know as a dream because it was

31:28a moment where I had you inside control now from that moment I moved towards a choke and you did something where you arched and flipped over very acrobatically and very elegantly I don't even know if it's an actual move or not it was very very beautiful wonderful are right there this spurts going quite well this rolling but it seems that Joe Rogan is better procedure than me but there even in the dream world that seemed like something kind and understanding of well there's jujitsu what's brilliant about it and what's interesting about it is that the more time you put into it the more you understand the moves the more moves you require the more moves you drill the better you get at it the more it's it's literally like a language and that your vocabulary increases and your ability to like even if your vocabulary is very broad if you don't talk a lot he'd probably have stumbling

32:18conversations right but if you get used to talking all the time and you're having a conversation with someone and the words kind of flow but if you're talking to someone and they're weird and they bark out things and they talk over you it's it's awkward and herky-jerky much like jiu-jitsu jiu-jitsu is almost like a kinetic language but there is a puzzle that's being solved right and it's there's a problem right this person's the problem is this person is trying to apply all these different techniques where their chokes are on joint locks on you and you are trying to both defend that and then put it on your put yours on them it's beautiful I've heard you say before a high-pressure problem-solving MMA I always describe as high-level problem-solving with dire physical consequences does MMA is the most the most high level of all the problem-solving because the consequences

33:11are so grave getting kicked in the head getting elbowed in need like those things are so jiu-jitsu I think is better for you for sure physically because the consequences are not nearly as grave you get choked out you're fine you get your arm you know you tap out if you slums you're you have as long as you're willing to tap out you have to be willing to tap you'll you'll get through it okay and if you get injured you just get it fixed and take six months off you'll be back I like that kinetic language thing you said that really makes sense to me because I feel like when I'm doing it do you watch jujitsu at all online no I don't watch sometimes I look at videos of them Gracie's or something and marvel at their effortless capacities and charisma you should watch just because you're enjoying it watch like current top of the food chain Jiu Jitsu guys like hoffa

34:14Mendez you know watch some marcelo garcia watch some you know some of the young guys coming up gary tonin it's fascinating to watch them apply these new strategies to this old language you know because that's really essentially what it is I mean what you're seeing is these new approaches Jiu Jitsu is this never-ending thing I mean it really it just doesn't it does like boxing although it's very complex and it doesn't seem as complex to someone on the outside but when you watch like a guy like Floyd Mayweather or Sugar Ray Leonard or someone is like just a master at their craft would you see how complex it truly is you see all the different the all the different nuances to it but it's still punching right there's just still to punching whereas Jiu Jitsu is this tangle of bodies and possibilities and potential there's so many different ways to approach it

35:05there's people that are chokers there's people that are arm lock guys there's people that are they like to get you with their legs their triangle people and then they all have their own little way of approaching this conversation so you've learned a few sort of grammatical pathways through that kinetic language you think right I'm gonna master that particular area so watching videos online it's like watching a video of Alan Watts talking you go okay okay Terence Mckenna or Timothy Leary or whoever it is that you think is fascinating you you hear them talk and it develops new pathways and possibilities for your own thinking and it's one of the things I was going to say earlier that we what I was thinking while we're having this conversation about the future and about possibilities and about civilization that you with all due respect what you and I are doing

35:46both of us this is a very rudimentary way of trying to figure this out I think we're we're we're clubbing at it right you know and I think people are listening to this that will do a far better job than us in the future yeah and I think that that's important and I think that we're doing our best you know we're taking our steps but when Henry Ford created the Model T he didn't intend it to race against a laferrari you know he didn't know what the a la Ferrari was but if he didn't make that Model T the laferrari wouldn't been possible but you can't go back and go ahead and wait for it suck dude ride this piece of with its leaf springs and stupid tires you know and then get in a 2017 Corvette zr1 you go oh okay this is where it's at no it's like all these things have to be in place for the next evolution of it to advance and I think we're we're looking

36:35at today with our societies we're hoping that there's a solution out there we're hope but there's a solution but it's goddamn slow just like all evolution it's it's goddamn slow it's faster than single-celled organisms to a giraffe but it's still slow and we are part of it all of us not just you and I but the people that are listening to this and the people that are having their own podcast their own conversations and doing TED Talks and writing books we're all a part of thinking this out and these little pieces all fit together slowly but surely and create this mosaic of ideas and potential and what we're experiencing now is just what we can experience in this realm like in this world with this life that we are currently stuck in and then some 150 years from now we'll be looking back at our stumblin conversation trying to figure out a way to engineer society

37:26correctly and they'll have a much better way of doing it I think that's a very beautiful progressive argument I agree with much of what you've said except subtly Joe even things I've heard on this podcast say when you have graham Hank I particularly enjoyed it when you got the Morse sanctioned academic guy on there and they like guten Graham felt like you know you know you bastards you're the people that I like I'm such a rebel you know it's it's fascinating to see these people you know attacking him for his ideas and his research but now having less and less ground to stand on you know Graham's ideas have been more proven in the last 10 20 years than ever before this is finding these new civilizations and finding these new evidence that human beings have existed on this continent far longer and that they're traveling all over the world for far longer and the civilization is

38:14probably quite a bit older than we thought that's right and so we don't therefore know that this idea of continual progression linear progression is the only one it is possible that when it comes to the realm of consciousness ancient people knew something that we are struggling to understand that and I recognize that your model t2 Ferrari metaphor is a good one and actually speaking to young people now I do feel that they're kind of more switched on geez look at a baby with an iPad it seems like they know already and but what I feel is then this might just be my personal narcissism that I like to think of myself as the pinnacle of consciousness that there isn't some other realm cup even though god I want that DMT so bad like I'm afraid of that because it's not it's not a like it's not an intoxicant because I'm a 12-step guy and I'm a surprise stop all that

39:1112-step thought you're not gonna you're not gonna fall smashing your did it's not this idea that you're gonna fall apart and become a junkie again it's not gonna happen that Paulo does that you can say that Joe but also opening an integral part of my recovery is the idea of surrender and I think that's an integral part of a lot of spiritual belief to an internal part of DMT yeah I bet around I feel you man but like that to bypass the idea of my egoic authorship my ego equal for over I'm Russell and this is what I believe and this is what I'm gonna do I have surrendered to a way of life I have surrendered if I can find some people with 20 30 years in in recovery clean time that go you're allowed to take DMT I'm like happy 2pi you don't need their their device or their sanctioning well in a way are you by the way you don't even need DMT no you don't need it but you

40:06seem like you want it yeah because I love the transcendent I love it because I've known and I've always known that this experience of being in a body in the conscious individualistic might don't remember if they can loads of acid when I was reared as well I know that this is not all of it this is just we're just reading one bandwidth of data with our sensory instruments that there is limitless consciousness and limitless reality do you miss that acid experience yes I do I I love it I love it is the concern that if you fell into it like whether it was mushrooms or whatever it was but if you fell into that experience again that it would lead you in a downward spiral of addiction in a sense it's that in a sense is that and the fact is is well that I've turned my life round all my life has been turned around by this program by this system and like you know

40:54the 12th of it does have something in it that's quite what I want to say like it's a little bit a sake it is a little you think like it's about denial right because but the reason that I've written this book was an interpretation of 12 steps excuse me it's cuz I think it's a masterpiece I think it's a masterpiece at a time when people are struggling with ideologies at time and people are struggling with religion because the bad things about religion is so obvious the bigotry and the violence those things are so clear to us even though there are many many beautiful things about Islam and many beautiful things about Christianity it without focus tends to turn on the bigotry and the hatred that is presently or used out of those ideologies and the 12-step is accessible to anybody and can be used as a code to unravel your connection to your own individual experience your own

41:38self-centeredness your own self obsession now this might not be a problem that you have that this might be the line that separates us me I'm self-obsessed and I have to firstly like that this is how it works one you admit there's something you want to change and like that could be I'm a smack it pretty obvious then or you're a sex addict and that's a harder thing to admit because it can be rewarding if you're into adult human females in a culture like I was but if it ultimately leaves you lonely and unable to have a family and you feel like you're having a negative emotional effect on others and yourself then you need to admit it's a problem the second thing is could your life be better in the of course it could and the third thing is being willing to accept help from others and whether that's a community or from your understanding of a higher power now I

42:22happen to have I believe in God in that sense I believe that there's limitless consciousness that my individual consciousness is connected to something that I can't understand that no one can ever understand and again as I've heard them one of my own podcasts as a matter of fact Yanis varoufakis who lit this political movement in Greece he said we will never know whether consciousness preceded matter or matter preceded consciousness and in a way it's irrelevant now because spirit this quality is here it's here and it's a big part of what human beings are and isn't dealt with by consumerism and it isn't dealt with by contemporary politics people don't talk about love kindness together Ness but these are the dominant things in our lives that's what's most important to me the people that I love like you said the connections with the people you have that become your reality

43:05but a political system that reduces you to a component of an economic machine is never going to fulfill you so what I have now believe is that by what I think this book can do is give people a guide to reaching their own spiritual truth because it's completely non prescriptive it's like your version of God is going to be different from mine your personal inventory that you draw up we will reveal the truths of the way you see the world and the problems you've made the communities that you belong to will support you and you can change your patterns you can make amends for your past you can continue to stay present and a vital part of this program is prayer and meditation continual connection to the moments you don't lose yourself in your past or the projections of your future now whether or not that prohibits me from experimenting with psychedelics in the long term you know

43:51for me that Jew is out because I do wonder and Bill Wilson the guy who founded these fellowships was fascinated by acid and subsequent like even when he was sober took a lot of acid and I think that guy was a prophet he was on a mission he was trying to discover what is truth what is reality we discuss much in the 12-step program though is it because I think it's like most things it becomes all for docs you know like most religions most systems in the end they become Orthodox and it does such a good job at helping with its primary of stopping people being alcoholics stopping people being drug addicts that's such an amazing job and it's doing that job and it should continue to do that job what I feel like I wanted to do is extract the thing that I think is amazing about it and say oh my god anyone could use this you hear this again again from people that have got a

44:34long time prep clean in these programs everyone should work this program everyone should know what is the impact because your mum treated you that way or your dad this or this sort of happen to its core you were abused you're still carrying it in your consciousness we've touched on it a moment ago Joe if you're like I say this you don't choose between having a program and not having a program you choose between having a conscious program and an unconscious program if you're not working in a conscious program you are being worked by your unconscious program this is what I do if a man makes me feel intimidated this is what I do if a woman makes me feel like I'm important this is what I do if I have a bad day program program program the program of your class the program of your school your family your culture your time and this 12-step system can debug you from it and it's not anybody

45:16else telling you what to do because it's your own version of a higher power it's your own version of a truth except it's guided by the idea become free connect to who you really are and become benevolent and loving to others you know what I think is it really important that you said earlier about there's no political system or no no politicians that are talking about love and values and and and caring and a sense of community I think that's the solution to what we're fearing about brexit and Donald Trump and the rise of you know the just this attorney of the applecart this this thing that people are seeing right now that they don't like and this this the hateful rhetoric that people are most disturbed about particularly with brexit right that's like the big thing that people are really disturbed about is that it was fueled by this fear of the other yes that's right

46:06but isn't it possible that the when if people decide that that didn't work out whether it's brexit or trump that the response to that would be the rise of this ideology the rise of someone who's going to talk about love and community someone who's going to be genuine I mean we don't have that person now but it doesn't mean that that person can't exist and we've only had 45 different presidents we haven't have any every single version of it's possible for a human being to be interfacing with the entire civilization of the United States of America I think it's pretty clear that what that system delivers I think that those power systems are evolving in this direction I think that this is if not the pinnacle I think it's possible that there are better versions of a president but I think that systems that are at that centralized will always deliver inequality I think it's impossible for

46:53them not to and I think that they should be evolved altered devolved in in a sense broken down yeah but I do agree one of the things in that I think is positive about Cataclysm in politics of something like Brent breaks happen and when Trump happened I felt this sort of I'm a bit I'm AG you know I'm a trickster I'm a comic I'd live in mischief I live in the madness that's just behind reality and I thought in a way this is good not for the Karno like people's lives would be negatively effective when we've seen the rise of divisive politics and like you know sort of um quite old-fashioned ideas about sort of ethno-nationalism and that kind of stuff but the good thing is it precisely as you say Joe that it does open the conversation up for someone to say hold on a minute I think we've just left out love kindness unity togetherness like these things perhaps

47:37people will be open to whereas I think if you know if we'd stayed in the European Union if we had had Hillary Clinton as president things it's a bit more business as usual we're not forced with we're not staring into the face of madness we're not forced to address things are going wrong you know um I talked to my friend Sturgill Jim Sturgill Simpson the musician he is a brilliant musician and he was he sent me this text message of a conversation that he had with dr. Rick Strassman dr. Rick Strassman is the guy out of the University of New Mexico ran those clinical tests on DMT wrote in the book DMT the spirit molecule but he was quoting when he was talking about the times that we live in and how up everything is he was quoting this forget I think was a monk who said this that we are constantly in a fight between 49.9% and 50.1% good and evil and that they

48:34fluctuate back and forth and that we feel like we are just like a speck of dust because we are both speck of dust n the most important thing in the world pretty because the the actions of one individual literally can influence the course of the human race the course of our civilization and that this period of flux is what creates growth and change and that the tipping of the applecart and the the the positive thing about having someone like Donald Trump and I don't like Donald Trump more than I like Hillary Clinton I didn't like either one of them and when Hillary Clinton represented to me was this lifelong politician who didn't support gay marriage until 2013 which she was to me which she represented to me was an obvious magician someone who I could see them pulling the card on their sleeve and I'm supposed to not pay attention yeah it's right yeah and what he represents is the ego

49:29unfettered in firing crazy the whole deal it's just this chaos ego putting his name on buildings and that we're realizing that both of these are terrible options this system is a terrible system this when we have what's essentially a popularity contest to see who controls nuclear weapons it's insane and that the only way this is gonna change is by having this incredibly upsetting moment for everybody where they're looking around going what the is going on and then new ideas get introduced and I don't know what those new ideas are going to be or who's going to introduce them or how someone is going to come along within the next three years and challenge this current system in a way that's appealing not just to the right and to the left but maybe in some way to just human beings maybe in some way to human beings they realize like it's what's we're not going

50:30to get by in this world by enforcing right-wing politics and ideas and and and this sort of ideology or left-wing ideas and politics Rd ology but freedom and love and community and to be free to practice your own level of conservatism on your own and let the idea that I don't want any gays and I have a little tribe where no gays are allowed that seems to me to be counterproductive and that seems to be you know yeah there's any suppressing of people's individual right to express themselves sure I agree with almost everything you said there and I've got since I've been involved in academia general one the main changes I make notes yeah notes now I never would have dreamt to that when I was a younger man notice excellent near the beginning you talked about this idea the fit the percentile of you know good and evil the good news above us now this great quote by two rational force

51:21alternates in the line between good and evil runs not between Creed's religions and empires but through every human harm some nice quote for that isn't it now and I he's a personal theory that the reason that idolatry is bad like that it comes like you know most religions they don't worship individuals is precisely because they understand that don't make one individual have too much power even now historically we know that Gandhi had skeletons in the closet great great game bb's wonderful great hero of bringing down the British Empire bring it about freedom you know although interestingly Gandhi said there's no point us kicking the British out of India and then replicate in their systems this is a country of seventy thousand villages these 70,000 visitors religious or should be autonomous run on their own craft or crafts economies trade with one another only in excess so

52:09like he was trying to get like important ideas out there but like like your great civil rights leaders Malcolm X - the King these are men that had flow Malcolm X did prison time for unusual dr. King you know extramarital stuff people are not perfect they're great heroes people pioneers or our people so that we have to change this what I think is is that the this we can't have a popularity contest to decide who's in charge of nuclear weapons these kind of systems need to be devolved because it's mental we know the exact I agree of your analysis of Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump entirely I think that the reason that you have a mad option like Donald Trump being successful it's what people have enough of those cheap tricks and cards up sleeves and financial corruption so yeah the Apple carts going over chaos - I agree is an important part of evolution we rest on chaos these

52:59patterns that we observe are just temporary or show the sort of cult leader and poetic figure and leader said we talked about civilization as if it's this great thing what is civilization our clearing in the forest you know for a moment we create our cities and the forest closes in and has it again where all these ancient civilization that Graham Hancock talked about so lucidly where are they ain't hell we're swallowed up by the Amazon and at this great quote in Herman Melville's moby-dick that says you know Noah's Flood is still happening we are the majority of the earth is still flooded in water these we are connected to these events we are out there in that chaos so I suppose gosh what I'm trying to say here Joe is that when we recognize that we're all flawed that we're all fallible we have to sort think we have to think how can we build systems that tend

53:53towards the better aspects of our nature not the worst aspects of our nature can we recognize that any politician in a position of power for too long will make mistakes will be flawed that power has to be spread out as much as possible and as close to the people that it affects as as is feasible yeah there's always going to be an issue with someone being able to acquire a hundred billion dollars like the Amazon Jeff Bezos guy like that that is going to corrupt people that's gonna is like why would you first of all why would you keep working why would you want that amount of money and what's your plan what's your endgame you trying to make the world a better place you're gonna try to acquire more Brown boxes with your logo on them I mean what do you what are you doing where's it going and it seems to me that there's a game right everybody plays this game some people play it for

54:39$10 an hour some people play it for 10 billion dollars a year and that once you make 10 billion dollars a year you want infinite growth you want 11 next year I would like to tell my stockholders that we have cause to celebrate and we have 20% increase in our bottom line this year and everybody's looking good let's go to Tahiti right and then like where what are you doing you can't this is not gonna last you're not gonna live forever like what what is the endgame well there's no end game you're caught up in the current game in the current game they're literally capitalists are literally living in the moment yeah you're right - just put stockpiling yeah yeah they're not thinking about the overall objective you know a sky down looking from the you know looking from the heavens down on earth like what the are we doing thinking about nor are they accepting that limitless growth is literally

55:29impossible that we have finite resources on a finite planet and if you not for me it's also you get caught up in the momentum of whatever you're doing you know whatever you're doing you just get caught up in it and you know you if you're doing something and you're trying to get better at it whether it's make better paintings or acquire more wealth like you these are quests and you try to get better at these quests you know and that's that's that's a real issue with human beings and I think it has evolutionary roots I think it has roots in our our need and desire to make better structures and shelters to make better weapons to make a better civilization so that we can stay alive longer so that we can ensure that our children will be alive longer I think there's roots in that that our sort of just sort of bastardize and twisted in this world of ideas where

56:24you're talking about like money and and and and stocks and bonds and mutual funds and hedge funds yes and it's like Jesus like what it's it's almost like we have these ancient instincts for for constant improvement that just they these human reward systems get they just get corrupted my theory on this idea is that we have biochemical drives as you have just described that compel us to move forward and to survive but we also have a culture that's continually stimulating fear and desire in order to cast us in a particular economic role that of consumer and the reason that I believe that this program and indeed this book are important is because it is a code to awakening a code to becoming conscious and once you a conscious you can't beholden to the same systems so much of our behavior is a result of what we don't know about ourselves we are motivated we're trying to fulfill

57:24ourselves because there is that biochemical imperative to get more to survive which as an addict I experience and have experience in extreme sex xx xx till there's no more getting out of my head till it's inconceivable that I could do that anymore about killing myself one in-state isn't power and prestige and see the reason I think this system works outside of addiction in it as it's currently recognized is I've had to work it in all sorts of ways once I've got rid of drugs I've got obsessed with sex once I get one sighs get a handle on sex I'll start being obsessed with what other people think of me power Fame and money and what I'm continually recognizing is none of these things can be fulfilling if you're not connected to who you really are that can give you a moment then you're free to pursue your art or your creation of structures in a conscious way you're not doing it

58:11because you feel unconsciously a bit worthless or a bit crap or like it might fulfill you it becomes pragmatic do you also feel that like less concentrating in yourself and less being self-obsessed has allowed you to have more open communication with other people and more healthy like like back and forth fulfilling communication with other people which literally makes you happier whereas you thought that being obsessed with yourself and being obsessed with success and and adulation or sex or whatever those other things were that you were obsessed with was going to fulfill those needs and they weren't but that community there's an bonding and that's a big part of jiu-jitsu as well man this is a part of it yeah big big big part of jiu-jitsu it's like we're a family when you're in there choking each other as weird as that sounds like there's there's a bond

58:58between those people that are in those classes all over the world that are they're going to they they recognize this community in that as well as like it being an extreme pursuit and as well as it being something that is developing your human potential you're also you're also creating this really intense community of like-minded people comedians feel that you know I definitely feel that with you I feel that with most comedians that come in here we I know well you we are the same thing in a lot of ways yes yes I think that's very important and in a way it's a return to what you were saying at the beginning of our conversation that there are certain anthropological requirements that you know you need to feel like you're part of a tribe you need to feel connected to one another and in my very limited pop in there once a week experiences of BJJ when I've like done classes with other

59:46people instead of just the one on 1 million structure because he looks after me - no I mean he's delicate he's brilliant but when it's with like other people that are a similar beginner-level the moments of real intensity within it but afterwards a sense of fraternity and love and closeness and like some stuff that I'm not familiar with have not used to being close to men in their own awareness amazing and beautiful and probably very very natural and impute important and a side of my life that I didn't explore because I did download the myth of our time but you are an individual and you carved your own way in this world and is what's important is your power your ability to affect change on others your ability to sleep with women the adulation of others and as I've got older and having experienced a degree of it I recognize it's not real it doesn't work and simple things

60:38connection and community have become more and more valuable to me but it's an ongoing thing because if you said the percentage is so close you know we're not get involved recently in a campaign that was a I got involved in a campaign to save her housing estate a couple of years back like these women asked me to buy our states gonna get turned into commercial flats we're all getting evicted we live here with our families I back campaign I've got them on the TV this corporate power backed down and it was amazing because like ordinary people ordinary families be you know it was like the rebels beating the Empire it's like an amazing achievement of those people but my ego liked it I am the power I am the power fed back into it you know so like I I see it as an ongoing thing that my life now is how can I convey ideas that I think will help people in a way that is accessible

61:29how can I be useful and knowing that might put my role in this is to make sure that I don't slip into new yoga egomania again because I would love to be a cult leader on some base thinking thinking about it though there's and being aware of it is one of the most important steps because like we are all we're all a work in progress I mean there's no perfect person out there they don't exist and we've already discussed this kind of ad nauseam right I mean I'm a work in progress you're a work in progress I don't I never met anybody who wasn't and I never met anybody who doesn't vacillate at least a little bit Larry there were some days you're better than other days and those days where you're not as good you feel uncomfortable about it and those are the lid would lead to better days when you find yourself those slipping moments are actually critical because they they give you some

62:11self-awareness you realize why up you know I yelled you out my car window when I shouldn't over whatever it was you know well again this system is what provides you away out at like the you know the recovery system this 12 separate system is that you record like you would not rely on one person to be perfect you recognize everyone is fallible but together as a community we can start to have better objectives and in an instance like I up all the time but this step 9 and step 10 are about making amends when you make a mistake like so I would like now I literally do this if there's a moment where I shout you at somebody or you know I go shuffling back a day later listening will said you that's me they must have affected your feelings very sorry to find someone in traffic yeah I try and do it real quick my yous maybe it's on a phone call maybe it's in a shop or whatever yeah I mean

63:05in a way is about I suppose becoming a benevolent force in this world if I tend towards that better 50.1% as opposed to the 49 then I'm becoming in a progressive agent or a benevolent agent as opposed to another person intoxicating the pool I think it's a microcosm all we're talking about earlier about society itself is that one day in the future look what the way we behave today is light years past the way they behaved in during the Inquisition I mean in an in the future I imagine especially today because people have so much access to the way other people behaved we have so much data hmm on just written words listening to people talk in podcasts and speeches and watching videos there's so much more data than there ever was available 100 200 a thousand years ago that in the future we're going to have a much better way of communicating based on the learning and growth if we survive

64:05right and I think that's the same thing with you and I and everybody listening to this as a human being if you continue to grow and you don't fall into all these traps as time goes on you will be a better version it's slow and it's brutal and it's painful sometimes because it's just you feel like God don't done why don't I have my together you know I mean there's I mean and I was saying this about Donald Trump like someone was riding off Donald Trump like he's never gonna learn you know he's who he is I'm like do you just stop learning when you're 70 like it's 70 that's it it's over there's no more data's getting in there well I don't know I don't mean maybe Donald Trump could have a revelation one day you know maybe Donald Trump could realize the error of his ways and the way he communicates is is you know he's causing more problems than he's fixing yeah he may be he'll be

64:51we're not even to point him out because it's just he's just one of us right you know all of us that I think we're all slowly brutally piecing this thing together and hopefully were better at it than we were a week ago and hopefully we were better at it than we were six months ago and that it's gonna continue well that feels like the general tendency in my own life did it feel like a general tendency in your life no absolutely and you know one of the things that's helped tremendously is this podcast being able to have these long three-hour conversations with people you sit down and talk to them with no distractions it doesn't exist anywhere else it doesn't exist in nature someone someone said this to me they said you know you always say on your podcast that you just try to have a conversation he goes but who the has these kind of conversations we just sit down and stare at each other and

65:35talk for hours at a time I'm like yeah you're right I mean it is just a conversations yeah but you're right is it it's sort of an accelerated form of it it's like if you were you know you can kind of apply it to everything else if you spend enough time doing it you know you're just you're gonna get better at it and you're gonna a lot of the podcast is thinking right and it's examining your own behavior and examining the way you interface with other people and yeah I do more of that than I ever had before what do you want to change about yourself just keep going the same way I'm going get better at being nice get better being honest get better at being loving give me the sound hokey hippies yeah I want to want to be nicer to I want to have better relationships with my friends better relationships with my family better relationships with people that I don't

66:23even know that I mean I mean I just want to interface with the world in a more positive way I think one of the most important things to realize is all the interactions that we have with each other are dependent upon two Jools or more right but it's you and whoever you encounter here and the way you encounter them is going to change the way they behave to you and everybody always wants to put it off on the person who behaved a certain way to them and in some ways you're right but in other ways your reaction is completely dependent on your own way of approaching it and the your reaction may change the way they react you're completely right like any say like if at the you know throwing a ball against that brick wall it will bounce back a certain way but if that became a softer surface or indeed a furry wall to quote one of my own films then it will bounce back in a different

67:11way so this is another thing that's in the program the necessity for forgiveness if you if you'd instead of blaming your past blaming other people you come to a point of forgiveness this creates the sort of the Nexus for change as long as you're like oh that person felt me up when I was a kid or my stepdad wasn't loving figure in my life as long as I hold on to that belief I'm trapped by it I mean I say I relinquish that now it's not happening anymore I'm willing to move forward that's another human being they were doing the best they could suddenly you're liberated in your path changes now Joe when you were saying just then mate about like wanting to hell when people do you have any particular projects that are specifically about that obviously this podcast is a tool for education but do you have anything that's specifically like right I'm gonna do this thing like I don't know taking

68:01martial arts in the communities type stuff no no anything could be really good at that if I had more time I just don't I don't have enough time to do what I'm already doing you know I mean in terms of like just sheer numbers of hours in the day and I think I can't just work because if I just work my work won't be any good I mean you have to live it's one of the most important things about stand-up comedy's you can't just do comedy you have to do other things and this is something that took me a long time to figure out like you can't jet like you ever see a lot of comics they just started talking about like airline travel and hotel rooms and life is life and they can relate to it so that's what they talk about well that to me is a failure of gathering research yes I mean so it's life right yeah but your life has to I think in order to have like a continual body of work but yeah

68:53you can't just constantly talk about airline travel you have very conscious my thing at the beginning of this was about airline travel and the low level low frequency anxiety I experienced in airline workers he certainly wasn't a comedic bit but it was cultural analysis and did to a degree reveal that I'm in the middle of a press junket and that's my life at the moment I could just as easily have told you about bees I'm a beekeeper I've got bees right I swim in the river have experiences if several sort of one bit not keeping one be 60,000 bees I'm not taking money or anything like that but it doesn't your rights give me so what's your stand at your stand-up comedy then what is it currently what are you currently what you're like section is your beats your butts what I'm doing right now is working towards a new Netflix special that I'm gonna do in either March or April I have

69:47to figure it out I want to do it in Boston and I don't want to do when it's too cold 1000 thousand see a place in Boston I think yeah the Wilbur yeah good place yeah it's a awesome Little Theatre because it's really it's 900 seats and it's really three 300 seat comedy clubs yeah it's three stacked on top of each other it's a great venue what you'll see you can do an hour so you know you'll see what have you got for free 20 minute areas do you know what your bits are yeah what sort of areas if you don't mind it's difficult to talk about it on the podcast because you know without going into actual detail about the area right I'll tell you about my aura to show you this so I think I talked about like we're not got heavily involved in politics and I found myself on TV shows and doing rants on telly and getting into political arguments those are great by the way thank you I love doing those

70:34love the one you did was it Fox News that you did one with it we're breaking down like what are we doing here I love doing that I like that Cruz there's a lot of ridicule available once you get into your analysis so you're stuck you're a runaway train once you start a sentence and you start going you're very fast and powerful and they're like whoa whoa and there's not a lot of arms or I'm gonna interject and they're sitting there they're all you know first of all the little starry-eyed in the first place the runaway trains have and then the rides over five minutes later like tin cans are rolling down the aisle and they're like okay it's a good technique because see they're what we were saying about BJJ like that language I don't know the other language the language of comedy it's a language I've worked on so one of my techniques is never create space give them know see take the actual

71:27jujitsu out of it I'm brilliant at Jiu Jitsu yes it's just the actual physical contact holds locks and chokes I strategists who shows itself in all forms everything that is true transcendence to find one universal language one Universal myth one mind one consciousness yes no the way broadly and you see it in all things Ronnie I'm out to Musashi that was pretty good job at rings just drop that in there Chinese philosophy or something what is he some sort of master he was a samurai that was he was a ronin he was during the time where you know who samurais roam the earth and got into these one-on-one sword fights and he killed 62 men in one on one sword fights that's a life and a bad he wrote an amazing book on strategy and life and one of the things that he emphasized in that book is that a real warrior must be balanced you must be good at art and calligraphy

72:19and poetry you can't have any holes in your game you had a balanced person in order to survive in these intense moments of swords flying at your face I had never teach a man to fight he doesn't know how to dance that's quite good in it me neither but what I solved like what I've done is I found things like approaching from a different angle of like pointing out the things that I did wrong in my political campaigning where I flawed and fell into my ego I do a good long bit about the birth of my daughter like purely from the perspective of a watching a birth like like I spent a commentary a sports commentary on the baby coming out I don't use the beat the rhythms of sports commentary but just actually describing what happened and what it did to my mind to be present at the birth of my to experience something that's so divine but so animal tearing flesh roaring and

73:12all that stuff but it's like God is in their house you know so I do it beyond that but and every time I build it up into a point of divinity I undercut it with like you know House of mad it looks and yeah so like I do that so I and the whole show rebirth which I'm doing fun Netflix I believe at some point soon it's like it's about it's called rebirth and the point of it is how but having the baby isn't meant I've been reborn to myself but a lot of it's about recognizing the limits because I think I got very narcissistically involved in politics the same way I'm possibly getting narcissistically involved in spirituality right now because I still have this yearning this thing that wants to change you know other people's lives change the world in inverted commas you know but like the comedy comes from recognizing my own flaws within that you do do any sort of like really difficult

74:01exercise outside of jiu-jitsu do you ever get involved in you know any like yoga like intense yoga like long periods of time like 90-minute hot yoga classes or running or anything what you like really have to push yourself physically not really push a run and I listen to your podcast sometimes and Sam Harris podcast sometimes or whatever and I like and I do i do do yoga but not like it's interesting that you specifically say push yourself to the limit why do you ask an important part I think there's a freeing aspect in pushing boundaries and the physical boundaries because it's exhausting and not just exhausting physically but mentally too because there's a strain on your your body's desire to quit like your your minds desire to seek comfort and that in pushing past that you find this freedom and you also find a vulnerability in who you are as a person yeah it's very difficult to think

74:52greatly of yourself and to be egoistic when you know that you're so tired you have to put your hands on your knees and you're you're heaving and eating and then you have to keep going and then don't be a come on keep going and so you're you don't you you realize who you are you feel yourself for who you really are as opposed to like adulation and and looking at yourself as this this thing that's above it all like you realize the the flaws in your mental process the flaws and your your abilities and I think it's very humbling yeah right I can see that doing that in a bodily way would be useful but like I to tell you the truth the trouble for me and I think a lot of addicts is not that like of course there's self obsession but self obsession isn't usually about I'm great it's normal I'm worthless that's where it comes mostly from that position but it's also you're

75:41thinking about yourself all the time that is the problem thanks for news to be decoded and I think you're right that physical exercise is really really important the level to the level to it right there I always feel better it's not my like I have to work even to bloody do it I'd rather spend all the time all the time thinking or doing something but thinking I'm it is thinking that's what's what's confusing about it to people it's thinking but it's thinking in a very different way like there's there's thinking when your body's at rest and you're just using your mind but there's also thinking when your mind is trying to manage your body under extreme stress and that is also a mental exercise and that's where people get it wrong people look at people that exercise and especially people that work out really hard and they think of them as meatheads or as like someone who's

76:24base or primal and unevolved but I feel like there's a high level of mental evolution involved in being able to push yourself like like I I really admire people that you know like you see like a lot of old people that are like sivan yoga class all the time that just never stop in there and they don't have extreme physical abilities at all they're not there there's nothing athletic about them they're not strong but they're in there grinding and in doing so you have to I mean it can't possibly be comfortable for them right I looking at their saggy arms and their old legs this is not like some graceful person who's able to do this easily this is a person who's really struggling and in real struggle like that there is a mental energy that's involved in forcing your body to go through these uncomfortable motions that I think is very freeing yeah I figure right what

77:18you said is well about balance and possibly what you're saying is that I'm a person who will benefit from more of that I see it guy in the gym once and he said don't stop exercising he was old he was like in his 70s he goes don't stop exercising don't let your body find out that it's dying I just keep going don't let your body find out it's dying that's great yeah that's pretty cool isn't it so like yeah but like I think that you know any form of I think that some variety of it I know you do the yoga you do the Brazilian Jujitsu you do the running I think it's very important of different forms of exercise different forms of mental activity different forms of stimulation to live it like because this is what this machine is designed to do and again I return to the problem of capitalism is it reduces you to your role within an economic system as opposed to why not get up go for a run

78:06through a bit of fishing you wander around true some arrows do whatever it is you're into and spend some time meditating spend some time exercising spend a time in loving physical combat for the reason your car is no time because your job is to stand on the line or in that necessary anymore it's not necessary it certainly isn't necessary enough to justify spending eight hours plus a day five days a week inside some sort of a box and not while ago you said we are both a speck of dust and limitless consciousness and this I agree with - limitless expansion limitless contraction possible within consciousness and what you said if that one idea can change the world very quickly and that's why these systems regulate the kind of information that's available and the way that it's transmitted and also the fact that it exists within the same economic model you can as long as you're making money

79:01as long as the money is getting directed in the right way people will let us talk about real radical stuff they're quite comfortable for us to say hey you should break down the system you should devolve all right I like this good conversation wise we've got called Peter Tatchell he's a Australian gay rights activist who lives in the UK and he said is like when you're talking like this no disrespect for the great civil rights heroes and the people who have had civil rights struggles but he said in his experience as a gay rights activist he goes in the end they will yield when it's to do with those things race sexuality people sort of know you guys but when you know the system will yield oh hey all right gay marriage of course all right yeah we you know we can't have slavery in the end though of course these monumental human struggles I'm not diminishing them because but if you go near

79:46people's financial interest you are I'll get you there you start saying hey why don't we not pay our mortgages hey everyone it's not pay tax then stop using oil right you URL yeah that's it straight away so it's off like this is what's interesting to me like I was like these are the these are the access points these are the points where there is more mobility I'm not suggesting that we all organize ourselves into a radical crew of you know tax avoiders or mortgage reneg azure whatever but well but even though you and I are both doing well weren't like you said before we're not in that weird you know upper stratosphere where you're living on the Hamptons and some hundred-acre ridiculous seaside mansion where your helicopter and private jet everywhere and you know worth a hundred million dollars and that's a weird world that's a weird world that very few

80:40people exist in and once they get there they don't want to leave once you start flying private everywhere you don't want to leave once you have a mansion you don't want an apartment you know once you have a Bentley you don't want a Yugo you know it's like nobody wants to go down you want to keep moving up yeah and it's weird because those things happened they tend to happen in sort of if they happen in in if you've got that money for entertainment maybe you're still sort of you've got some connection to your roots and who you were yeah Yeah right entertainment or not maybe you know you're still connected to the source but when it's like being tech and finance yeah you've got a vested interest my friend Jason Segel the brilliant actor goes you know as you think all that stuff's about you the Jets and the billboards and stuff but it's just the symptoms of other people

81:24making money out of you it's not about you at all and you're part of a machine you'll be processed you'll be kicked out it's not a carousel it's a train it will run out of energy and as soon as you're not providing you're out and I was doing some promo for this book that I'm still trying to subtly occasionally promote in this freewheeling conversation at Facebook and like a family man this place didn't exist like 15 years ago ever and look at it now it is a monolith these are like these other kingdoms now all these little ideas that were mentally informed they just release the newest Google pixel to phone I mean they make they make these incredible devices that you can interface into the Google world and they're optimized for their whole system amazing amazing you know in David Foster Wallace your great American author in his book Infinite Jest postulated a

82:11world where all stadiums were named after brands where countries and regions were named after brands and it's sort of I mean it's happening the flags of our nations are merely a veil over the true corporate interests the British Empire was always about East India trade and all that kind of crap in this country now is just a veil over true power I'm going to the t-mobile Arena in Las Vegas this weekend for the UFC are you the t-mobile arena that's what it's called now you know you sort of at first when they start to name football stadiums in our country you still remember to the name of what it used to be before sponsorship but we start to forget that it was ever anything else you start to forget we were once warriors we were once connected to the earth without gods were once Eagles and stags now our gods are the t-mobile Arena take back your freezers at the Coliseum

83:01it's the sony center right the christians are being thrown to the Lions at the Sony Center a free p.m. yeah Wow yeah yeah well I mean you know they want people to use t-mobile just ask me give me a deal oh you're saying keep talking yeah hey so like I learned an important lesson off view and this was it when I was laughter I came on last time you would do in sort of a very big UFC event in I think Vegas and my mates like from the gym that I go to the Genesis team what I've already mentioned that they were coming over for a snack though they didn't ask me but I said for our listen I could further inveigle myself into this little crew of martial artists by hooking them up with Joe Rogan tickets and I thought yeah I'll do that like ever the politician so forth so I text you our joke you hook up my mates with this thing and you went oh okay who are these people is important to you I took

84:04a moment forum they are important unlike a button what's my motivations here they're like this is a good thing I took a moment to reflect on it and for shall I do this come up with tickets you know maybe I'm doing this for the wrong reasons I took a moment of respite I reflected I didn't do it it was a little lesson it was a little lesson because you gave me pause for respite I think you were doing a stand-up show actually and I was worn etre and they were already had tickets for your standup that's what it was I was like I'll give them backstage passes and your answer wasn't an immediate bend over yes of course I'll do what you want mr. brand it was a bit more questioning like well oh really who are these guys well I'd the reason why I asked I always ask is because like sometimes people say look you don't have to do this but they've been bothering me about it it's a guy I work with

84:45mmm or people have said hey would you do this it's my best friend I love this guy and then I go okay yeah should give people lip Junction because those people playing sports because somebody might be a pain in the ass to you and you might just be giving a line and I didn't know you as well you know so I'm like well you me and I really admired the way you handled it he like you know I said you want to give my number and that was the thing and you went no it seemed like that might be overkill me it made me look at my own motivations and I suppose that's a you know anything that looked called young the great Carl Jung the mystic and one of the pioneers of psychoanalysis said anything that crosses your path that you didn't intend for that is God in inverted commas an opportunity to learn so this is how I try to approach my life now some I didn't plan for that to happen what's the lesson here

85:38what can I learn from this situation so like you know you know I'm sure them guys would have been fantastic though they did later show me videos of what went on on I think it was a stag do and they were carrying on like idiots calling up and down coryville of drunk out of their minds so perhaps it was for the best well uh generally I'm sure that nothing would have gone wrong but when I look at my motivation ah what are you doing here why do you want to do this you're doing it a little bit because you want to look cool don't bother doing that then you know that's a little it's a small evolution in the way that I walk the path or a small amendment down a line maybe I will ask again yeah actually Joe could you sort these guys out with tickets for this or that but I'll do it with the right motivation the right connection now this again as I keep saying this journey from

86:17unconsciousness that consciousness is what has been the myth of my own life I think we have the whether or not we're in just limitless chaos in an ever-expanding universe without meaning our point without love you know maybe that is the way you know that a lot of people see the world that way it's not how I see the world I see there as being meaning and everything poetry and everything beauty and everything and certainly in my own life I like to find the story what am I gonna learn here what am I gonna do here what did I learn from being ahead and East what did I learn from being promiscuous from being a drug addict and it's all seems to make a kind of sense it all seems to be guiding me towards something and that thing does seem to be love service kindness awareness not trying to manipulate people not trying to get off people all the time it's a good journey and I feel like it's sad if

87:07people don't get to do their own version of that journey because they're on the cheese grater or because they're pursuing some myth some code from their childhood that they're not good enough or that they don't deserve to be happy or they can't achieve anything we're whatever rung they're caught on whether it's the rung of booze or drugs or the rung of staring at social media the whole time or the rung of hatred of others or the rung of being caught in bad relationships and a crap job for me I think that we can accelerate that evolution and I think that there are codes that can slip through in the same way that an Amazon can spring up in 15 years and be this great economic model if new ideas new faiths new ideologies can slip into the net particularly now we have this access to technology you've slipped past the gatekeepers you have your own media empire out of nothing you

87:53know and you've limited it klitz to you you know it's all built around you as an individual and your perspective etc but that these are there are ways now of getting information out there that excites me yeah and they should you know and what we were talking about - about being a hedonist and doing things wrong and up and what can you learn from them I think every time you something up and every time you do something badly you there's a lesson that you get oh the weird feelings of failure or of discontent and those lessons are extremely valuable you know a person who doesn't make mistakes and a person who doesn't do anything wrong they never learned you don't learn anything from doing everything perfectly every time I mean it doesn't happen no one know it and the more bold and brash you are and the more you take chances and the more you put yourself into these weird positions even

88:43in these like you know I'm sure when you're you were a sex addict and you're in this hedonistic you know whirlwind experience you're still you're taking in all this data and you're taking us in in the hollow feeling that you had that you didn't like it is what propelled you to your new stage of consciousness once you emerge from it yeah that's right every so often like because it's like pleasure Laden an orgy I mean that's the point of it I mean this flesh everywhere it's this bit there brilliant I was no in hold on a minute this isn't working this is a thing that would really really work you know like sometimes the the great gift of promiscuity is you get to experience all the intimacy with all of these strangers and it seemed exciting and the type of sexuality that I've always had is more about worship than any kind of domination I adore I adore you know so it's not about like I want

89:32to control you so like you know all these wonderful experiences and encounters but within it this kind of ongoing seem of loneliness unag nora balandin when you get the things your culture tells you you should be doing and you experience them now you know now you know you can stop chasing the carrot because you've had a bite out of it and it's like like you know not and it's a hard one to learn because anything that's got an orgasm at the end of it you know there's a degree of pleasure to be had but it takes it takes a while to recognize on what this is the emotional cost of me the spiritual cost on other people the fact that is preventing me from becoming a father from becoming a husband from settling from becoming rooted from becoming actually whole from becoming a man from becoming connected you know it takes a while to spot that I think a lot of people don't get the opportunity to

90:20break out that pattern I would never have spotted it had a not first been a heroin addict and don't hold a minute you're doing that thing again same with Fame and celebrity well toxic well toxic exciting and brilliant and loads of lovely people in there and I still like you know I might make another film I don't know what happened but like it's because I'd had the template and the experiences of are this is addiction you're expecting this thing to make you feel better now what's happening is I am as a baseline disabused of the idea that the material world will give me anything that it will ever fulfill me that I am responsible for my own connection and that my role here is to serve other people and help them in better if my objective in life is what can I do to augment myself to make myself better I don't you know even you know self-improvement I agree with all

91:07of that I agree entirely it's a brilliant brilliant thing and it's necessary I think but like in order that I may be of service to others rather than because then I'll just look great in this armchair way the self-improvement is about being better at what fulfills you the most which is almost always establishing community so don't you think then Joe that we could do something that's a bit more explicitly that from that you already have this huge community that around the Joe Rogan experience is this something in it bother you like that like couldn't there be something that wouldn't cost you that much that might be sort of wonderful didn't these things not float into your world aren't people going you're an influential figure you're unusual you have this strong male energy but you're very open to learning and you're very open to extreme and you're broad-minded like year I agree view note

91:55left wing categories right wing categories that shit's all gotta go but I think that there's a real opportunity for you how to have a huge impact on communities they're very neglected young males for example not knowing how to use their bodies young males that are that violence is becoming a problem for there's not that many people though in as powerful position as you to sort of the wreck to them in different ways that's something that you know about is that something that's come into your orbit well you're doing it right now I mean you're doing it right now by communicating in a month in a way that you're gonna get to way more people than you're gonna do it in a physical sense hmm you know by spreading these ideas and communicating online in a podcast and allowing people to download it for free and getting your phone and your head and you know you're jogging and

92:42you're driving your car you're getting ideas in the way more people's heads and you ever would you're likely being there physically being there it's very retro it really is you can only be there for so many people and what are you gonna do I mean I could I do comedy shows for a lot of people but I mean physically being there and doing something and organizing some sort of thing that's where you venture into weird cult thing that's for the cult saying it gets slippery everybody's covered in baby oil and you just trying to grip nothing right we're in a jungle now mass suicides it may be a right I think it's an interesting thing to observe I do think that's right and I do meet a lot of people in England like that go here yeah I heard you and Joe Rogan's I listen to Joe Rogan people talk about it and it's interesting because it's it's a different like it's

93:33accessing information that people would not avoid people come for the fight stuff or comfort it and entertainers but then they're getting you know hit with Graham Hancock or some neurologists or whatever that you're getting or some behavior Alysse though ever yeah it's a good thing well I think the wide variety of guests is very important too for me personally because otherwise I'd get bored if I only talked to comedians I only talked to MMA fighters or whatever or even only talked to scientists I'd get bored you know I like I like talking to a bunch of different people you know I mean I didn't plan any of this so the way that sort of unfolded is has been pretty organic to use it on an overused word tell me please just briefly is there something about the phenomena of Conor McGregor that is unique what is it that is happening what has happened with him what does he mean what does he mean

94:24into UFC what happens to him now the post Mayweather fight what is he an example of easiest of an outlier a pioneer how will he be regarded what does he represent is he an entertainment product easy a great athlete is a combination of all those things what does he mean for the sport of UFC and what do you think will happen in mixed martial arts and boxing do you think we'll see more of those kind of events well you're never gonna see another one like him right because he's a unique person he's literally being himself you're going to see a bunch of people try to mimic that and in a sense he's sort of mimicked the people that came before him like the Chael Sonnen z-- and the Muhammad Ali's and the people that were really good at talking the difference is that what Connors been able to do he's the first guy in the UFC that's been able to do that that's had spectacular results and

95:17also showed his real character in losing and then coming back and winning very quickly afterwards at the same guy like the Nate Diaz fight mmm I think that was a very important character exposing fight because he lost a fight he got humbled and then he jumped right back on the horse and then wound up winning and then he comes back and blows Eddie Alvarez out of the water to become the first to division concurrent champion in in the sport I think he's a unique guy in a very in it's almost like we don't have a word strong enough unique is not really strong enough word so he's founded on ability in a very basic way he's got brilliant ability instability massive he's incredibly smart and very he's very innovative in his techniques and his approaches and I think he has phenomenal coaching as well all the animal movements there what the is that walk well he's just getting what is

96:13that thing that he does amazing what does it mean this blows my mind doing it cocky on me it's just an amazing thing to do with the body yeah peacocking you say cocky looks like oh my god this guy out and doing he's letting the other guy know that he's so loose he can kind of strut with his arms like rubber bands flying around but I mean he's a combination of a lot of things he has a brilliant team John Kavanagh his coaches a brilliant coach he's got you know of amazing jujitsu coaching and striking coaching in his mind he's just he understands how to apply these things and his ability to perform under pressure is fantastic you saw that in the Mayweather fight I mean even though he lost that fight he hit Mayweather with some pretty good shots and he won the first three rounds against the greatest boxer of all time so ordinary I mean you can say easily that Mayweather was

97:11taking those rounds off and I agree he was and you could say that Mayweather was bringing him to deep water because he knew he would exhaust him because he didn't give him enough time to train for it because he really only gave him two months it was very brilliant I made with his part he knew that he wouldn't be efficient he would tire all those kinetic big explosive movements that Conor likes to do they're very taxing and he knew that he was not gonna have the efficiency to go 12 hard rounds with a master defensive fighter like Mayweather and Mayweather it was right but he didn't want to get hit with that uppercut that he got cracked with in the first round he didn't want to like you know Connors movement was very unusual it took Floyd a while to decipher it he we've been way better for him if he just blew Connor out of the water from one round on and just completely outclassed

97:53him but he didn't and one of the reasons why did mrs. Connors an extraordinary person he has greatness he has greatness I mean he didn't really have the proper opportunity in in only being able to prepare for two months and only having this one professional boxing match there was a lot of things stacked against him and yet I feel although he clearly lost he performed admirably I don't think it hurts his stock in any way I think it elevates him and I think his next fight in the UFC whoever would will be will be probably the biggest fight in UFC history if they can do it correctly depending upon who it is especially if it's Nate Diaz because Nate Diaz is a huge name and if Nate Diaz and him decide to do it one more time I think that would be the biggest fight ever in the history of the sport because I think Conor has eclipsed the sport largely you know and maybe for now maybe

98:42someone else will come along in the next year or two that does it I mean look Conor has only been around for a few years I tweeted to him in 2013 or 14 I forget what it was when he had won a big fight in the UK and I said you know congratulations on an amazing performance I really hope seeing the UFC someday that was like four years ago oh my god most so in four years he's gone from being this unknown fighter that only like the really hardcore fanatics like myself knew about to him being this worldwide phenomena he's the the biggest combat sport athlete not just of today ever there's no one like him no one like him no one that has the kind of popularity that he has I mean this guy has thousands and thousands of people fly from Ireland to Vegas every time he fights the weigh-ins it seems like you're in Dublin I mean it's crazy man when you look at what

99:39I when I interview him at the weigh-ins in the UFC in Vegas you look out you see nothing but Irish flags people screaming and cheering and singing Mandalay Bay during the Floyd Mayweather fight which is not even the venue where the fight was being held Mandalay Bay was packed bumper to bumper with Irishmen walking down the hallway cheering and singing songs in sync it was insane brilliant there's no one like him so first we have to have the greatness like without the greatness who gives a he's just another person got like a Denny's opposite about Van Gogh you know like you know who gives a if you cut your ear off if you paint into you've gotta be good so he's game is good but then like that but there are often great geniuses in sport but to have that like you say this once so that he used like the romantic ideas of Ireland and he's own Irishness that became an important part of his

100:34perception but it's obviously resonating in a very very powerful way to have that kind of devotion well Ireland's very important Ireland is a very important part of the equation as well because their appreciation and love and and support of him is unprecedented I mean I've seen Brazilian fans that love Josie Aldo and I've seen Brazilian fans that love Anderson Silva and you know the worshiped by their countrymen but it pales in comparison to the amount of love that Conor McGregor gets I understand their their myth aligns with his myth the myth of the Irish people is being oppressed by British colonialism and having to fight for their freedom it resonates with what this man represents and perhaps this is always what happens with figures of greatness whether it's within the realm of sport or within the realm of politics temporarily a person sort of captures a particular mood a

101:28particular energy and this is what I think again is to do with unconsciousness I don't think people are go like a conic are aware of these kind of feelings I think it is stimulated on a level that's not about for this is one of things I'm very interested in what lies beyond the rational you know what lies here we can equate we can work out we can just but there seems to be some ingredient even in Conor McGregor that you can't quite pin down yes there's the Ravens as a boxer yes the Irish people you know but there's also some flavor as being caught I wonder if you can ever preempt or understand these things I wonder if you can ever drilled but like the sort of the work of Joseph Campbell the work of Carl Jung the work of these people to say oh there are unconscious archetypes there are unconscious themes there are stories that are running below the surface patterns coordinates that can be

102:12connected to some people work notably the profession of Mark in know how to harness these energies if you have enough people feeling then not good enough they will spend money trying to feel better whether it's the purchase of a car or a coffee or whatever it is one of the key ingredient is make people feel not good enough if you can re harness and redirect people's sexual energy so that their sexual energy is directed at products and consumerism then you will sell your product but for me it seems like such a shame to waste this force to waste this knowledge to waste this energy just to turn people into consumers just to turn everything on this planet into a commodity when what we could be doing is using this energy to imagine new worlds to imagine new systems to use our greatness to use our greatness to I don't know Joe love one another to create new tribes I mean

103:05I don't know if you boy you've had a lot of things together it was pretty good rent that coffees really kicked in actually I think I could do another one I think I'm handling 250 milligrams I maintain this I'll pour it in my eye I'd like it drug problem drug I mean what were you saying about Connors I think undeniable he's a hero and he there's to be great I mean he dares to be great in a way that very few people do when he stands in front of the the opponent and looks at the entire crowd and go thinking literally is like some archetypal fixture yes yeah you're from the past I mean beautiful yeah I mean what he's also doing by doing that he's like he's letting the opponent realize like you're in there with greatness you're in there with someone who's incredibly comfortable in the moment and someone who truly believes that he's great and the results that he's had like

104:02you can't deny that they have a factor in in his future success and in the way people love them the way knocked out although with one punch to win the title I mean this giant build up over the long period of time and then he just starches him with one shot thirteen second of the fight and the deafening roar the Irish in that arena and when that happened was it was insane he's like a hero a mythical creature I suppose the role of the hero is to embody and represent some entire hmm fire the crowd - put me - all those people those 15 thousand plus people that saw that fight who knows how much energy that gave them - then go forth and pursue their own dreams because that's a big part of what heroes represent what would a big part of someone who is accomplishing anything spectacular it's not just that people get to watch it and get this thrill of watching this experience but also that

104:58you get energized to go and pursue your own ideas yes this is true I agree but I think an integral component of the mythic figure of the hero is sacrificing you know not critic like I'm in a bloody will judge Conor McGregor and any stage from any angle because people that brave enough to do that's unbelievable but like but what I've it while it resonates with us when someone is willing to sacrifice themselves is because it temporarily makes us recognize when someone's like willing to die for what they believe in whether that is you know these civil rights leaders in Mitchell for Malcolm X knew he was gonna die for doing that and he did it anyway Gandhi had a good sense that he was gonna die he did it anyway because what he believed in was more important than what he was as an individual and I think that when that happens it reminds us are there's something like you say inspire it puts

105:49breath into us it reminds us we have the capacity for greatness and we are not just contained by our body we are these streams of energy in that moment that there is no disconnection between Conor McGregor and that crowd there is a oneness a purpose in that single punch punching for all of them in that moment the only thing that saddens me is that it is ultimately not maybe not ultimately but at least seemingly housed by an economic idea that's the ultimate thing that prisons like that sort of contains it do not I mean you got to pay money to go there normally it's a commodified thing Conor McGregor it takes at all that makes people aware of the stakes that are at hand that makes people aware of the magnitude of the event if you can pack 22,000 people into an arena like that it makes people aware of the magnitude of it all if it just happens on a soccer field no one's

106:36watching it's not the same thing either you're quite right I'm not criticizing the crowd cause or because the crowd is important that's what it's doing it's representing something bigger but I feel like it's a shame and I feel like say when you take it like we've taken into the arts because there's more sensitivity it's more cerebral and it's less embodied you know so Kurt Cobain he's like someone like you know like someone in the matrix waking up in their pod he woke up in the pot of what I'll you know he knew he was a genius he knew that he was connecting with people he knew he was representing something and we also used mentally ill and a drug addict then he killed himself in it but I think that there is a sort of a comparison there that he knew that he was becoming commodified he was being reduced to a commodity he woke up in the pod and for our all of these things

107:23that are coming from my heart this truth I I slash an alienation the kind of things that he was singing about that in itself became a product the machine can handle it the machine can take people talking about that connecting to people's deepest fears even near that inadequacy and worthlessness and it can turn that into a product from sediment back to them I think you're getting caught up and money as always being a negative and I think Kyle Connor is actually embraced the money as a part of the narrative and I think you know another person who has done that without bragging about that is Manny Pacquiao and Manny Pacquiao's made hundreds of millions of dollars in the same form has actually used that to spread well throughout the Philippines and hands out money to people and he's famously generous in that regard and I think with Connors done is it's part of his hero

108:10mythology as he's sitting on a he's sitting on a throne on a pile of gold it's really a part of it all he's a king he's a hero now the part of the story I'm not criticising him as an individual and saying economy the money yes this money is a part of the story it's not necessarily negative and I don't think it is negative at all but Joe money is literally a symbol it is nothing but that represents something I promise to pay the bearer we believe this is one thought up in semantics cuz he can definitely go out and buy a house with that money his real as like he can go out and buy mansions and cars it's real as the idea that it represents like I promise to give you this yes it's a promissory note but it's real you know he has all that he has a hundred million dollars it is a part of the story he is sitting on a throne on a pile of gold he does have a crown he has

109:04a crown on his neck I mean it's real sure I'm not like like I don't see Conor McGregor it's the terminus at this point I think I see this is an opportunity to critique what the culture is telling us and what the culture is doing to us there you know I understand that you know with money you can acquire goods and services but what I'm saying is is that our ultimate system for evaluating worth has become about commodities instead of perhaps about beauty or about love not like you know I'm not saying that Gregor should give away all his money and start marching around to be the new Jesus of Ireland are there that would be fascinating to watch unfold I'm saying that isn't it a discussed question is it not a little unfortunate but greatness is ultimately given to us as a product that that is how it is received that's how it's understood is it possible that there will be other ways of

110:02demonstrating greatness as he does you know when he's fighting last Kurt Cobain did when he was playing but ultimately the dominant thing the dominant puppeteer the thing pulling the strings is the dollar I don't think it is I think it's a part of the story much like you know your clothes are a part of you know what you look like I don't think it's the dominant thing I think it's a big part of how you sell it like this is gonna be the biggest fight ever he's going to make you know X million dollars and the way caught me but Connor uses it as a part of his narrative voice drives around and a you know drop-top Bentley and he's you know he's got beautiful watches and suits that say you and pinstriping I mean it's part of what he's done by by creating this incredible mythology I mean I don't think it's necessary early in any way shape or form negative I think it's a part of the story say

110:53we've hip-hop right this is possibly a similar way of looking at the same idea and this isn't saying I know the answer to do not mean she'll know like I know I've worked this thing out and I want to teach you that I'm not going I'm trying to work out myself say with hip hop hip hop the first when it comes out it comes out as he's angrier or no not really to pay originally it came out as like a happy rhyme a hip pop hibbett to the hibbity hip hop dippity beat don't stop alright it's a jolly bit with African BAM bar at the beginning and then like it becomes a social hall yeah sure it should be heel and bam bar and yes early hip-hop pioneers and then we go through this off the phase of year you're right it goes through the early part of it jolly and daunting Alliance to rap gangsta rap like anger of we are going to have a voice Straight Outta Compton amazing and

111:41then that in itself becomes about like what is that the subsequent mutations of hip hop as it becomes sort of claimed by a dominant system it becomes about jewelry bling particular attitudes and Lou do you not see what I'm saying that there's a sort of almost like a trend things get pulled into a certain strand a certain way of being it does but it doesn't have to like it didn't with some guys like there really like here's a perfect example one of the best rappers ever nas nas never fell into that nas remains one of the best lyricists of all time remains brilliant all of his rap has meaning its creative it's interesting he doesn't fall into all the in the bling although he has plenty of money and he has all the trappings he's got this sort of style about him where I mean I believe his father was a jazz musician and he grew up with you know with art in his family

112:35and he's an artist first and foremost and although he's a brilliant rapper he's my favorite rapper I think that he's never really fallen into all the the bling mansions all that stuff like the display of it all I mean he has these things but it's not the primary display when you're talking about nas like as an artist a transition and because again like I suppose what I'm interested in is how likes of cultural governments start off it seems by saying something that's important and powerful whether it's punk or hip-hop like becomes a voice to the disembodied or a way of conveying not disembodied disenfranchised comes a voice for them or like in a similar thing with punk punk very observably cuz it was a relatively short term movement you know bands like the pistols in the clash and all this stuff these bands may have England and and it quickly became sort

113:27of commodified and sold back to people what I'm saying is like that and this could be resolved this I'm now starting to drink the second can of that caveman coffee is getting deep deep into my mind this is too much for one man it's 5:40 for the 2kms well dude at the Mt now I'm almost there so like I'm what I'm saying is is that things start with this original germ greatness Beauty glory heroism but there's anger there's an external system mojo that can turn it into a product and sell it to people and I think that that does strip it of its out of its real value yeah and you're saying I suppose no it doesn't matter that can just be the architecture of it or the the aesthetics of it and I'm saying as long as we have a system that is ultimately about making money and turning everything into profit and that's what I'm not saying this about any of the individualized in fact that's the point

114:19I'm making he is great now as is great like in the Kurt Cobain great great great great great but ultimately early you great me great we're like please God like Paul but everyone's pulled in the direction of profit so like it's a thing you've got to swim through like how is it we become freeze there's something different that could be done here can something truly glorious be done here like when you subscribe that moment of Vegas temporarily being overwhelmed no as it has been in recent days by tragedy death and blood but in a glorious spirit of Ireland and a hero that is in the unfortunate of that energy can't be literally used to create better worlds better systems better lives all that really happens is a load of people make a bunch of money and probably and I don't necessarily mean the protagonists you know I mean like people talk a lot about our athletes and too

115:11much money I don't agree with that it's one of the few ways that ordinary working-class people can make a lot of money but people at the top of that chain a siphoning significant amount of money of all of those little industries you know so but that's we're responsible for making it happen in the first place I mean it you can't leave it up to the athletes to put something like that together you need a Dana why you need a Floyd Mayweather and money the money team productions you need people to promote it you need people to put together a press junket in a world tour and and then you need people to organize the pay-per-view and but and then then the real ultimate result is the inspiration that all the people that watch it get the inspiration the entertainment and it's completely up to the individual whether or not they pursue greatness or whether they just

115:54pursue money hmm and it's a trap if there's trappings in both ways it's the trappings of greatness with no money there's the the sadness of someone who dies great but penniless and homeless and then there's the guy who just threw it all away for money and that never never realized his full potential which is equally sad well I think that in that is it like that we are showing a particular aspect of our own conditioning there in believing in the myth of the individual but the individual will always triumph if you have greatness you know but like no you did say like the great person that dies penniless you know it's a kind of a shame that we don't create benevolent systems that are helpful to the vulnerable wherever you're talking about support right if you're talking about and it is completely i mean look there has to be some sort of a support team behind the individual let's deplete it's

116:44completely dependent upon the individual if you don't have John Kavanagh you don't have a straight blast Jim you don't have either portal and dill and anise and all the different people that train Conor you don't have Conor but if you have all those things it's entirely dependent upon the one individual that takes that knowledge and goes in there and performs that's what's so scary about it and that's what's so rewarding to people that watch it because they know it's so dangerous it's so crazy it's so fraught with peril to be the one that so much lies upon yeah the one the the weight on his shoulders is massive and that's one of the most substantial things and the most impressive things about Conor is the way he handles the weight of the pressure that he goes in there and does this in in the the giant big moment that he stands there front of everybody and and throws his

117:32arms out like he's the king dizzy and everybody goes crazy about his glorious yes with money it seems like it does but money is a part of it all its greatness greatness is the thing the money is a side effect of greatness that when he does that I don't mean come on man is beautiful yeah because I don't ever want Conor McGregor to listen to this and think like for most brands elbow is head off my shoulders on that son of a my point is especially that left no wonder why he knocks people dead bigger whoa what's hard to tell from the angle but people up at that left hand boy this is not critic of any individual this is my I'm trying to understand how systems work that's why I'm trying to understand and I'm suggesting that there are fairer ways of doing things even there let me say this the system doesn't mean jack if someone can't rise this guy is different

118:31okay it's not the system exists all day long 24/7 365 the system's going on this weekend in Vegas there's gonna be two world title fights there's not nearly the amount of attention being paid to these two world title fights this weekend is Conor McGregor pulling his dick out and taking a piss in a punch bowl he could do that on pay-per-view and more people would watch it why because he's done so much in the past as an individual the greatness that he is shown it's it's more than just money it's more than just the system the system exists it's a matter of one person figuring out the frequency that this system operates on and showing this unbelievable performance inside that system that's the individual and that individual is when you talk about his past when he you know who's he was working as a construction worker or was a plumber or some and you know he'd

119:23done some amateur boxing and some MMA fights it was a regular guy you grew up in a working-class neighborhood he wasn't rich he wasn't there's nothing substantial about him even his own parents say they never thought that he was going to be this guy he figured out a way through it he wasn't born the king he wasn't some some person who you know what for whatever reason was gifted with this existence you know he worked his way through it figured it out and once he got to the greatest stage in the world when the pressure was at its highest he shone like the brightest star in the universe and that's that's what's so exciting about him yes I think he's beautiful and fascinating but my question is about commodification money freak you freak but when you say sizing you take a lot of DMT right or not gonna take another take a lot I've taken a few I've taken it nine nine times when you have

120:16them experiences what does it when you come back from me what is it that you feel about the way that systems are organized do not do you come back from it quite fatalistic like oh yeah that's just the way the world is what do you think I mean it's mental there's so much stuff going on things could be different I don't think about it the way that you think about I don't think about these systems I think you spend a lot of time thinking about the elites and the 1% in the systems I don't I don't think about that stuff very much I think mostly about what I'm interested in is God and oneness and I think that greatness is a representation of God I think that what is coming through Conor McGregor or Kurt Cobain or Jimi Hendrix or Dorothy Parker is some kind of the beauty that that person is the perfect vessel for that's what iconography is the realization of

121:06greatness or the realization of God in inverted commas given this is the singing the playing the star-spangled banner' at Woodstock unbelievable here is some some moment that pauses all together now what my curiosity is about DMT is that does DMT make you experience that oneness or that loss of self in a way that's kind of religious or spiritual what does it do to your intense loss of self I mean as intense as anything but it's not even I shouldn't say as there's no comparison I shouldn't say as intense as anything because there's not a word that I could say that's gonna come out of my mouth that's gonna do it justice the words haven't been invented they don't exist because it does all words that we have created they represent things that we can reference in the material world yes yes yes when you when you have a DMT experience you're literally having a conversation with God you're

121:56experiencing something that's everything and something that's infinitely powerful and infinitely wise the way I've described it is like you're seeing this insane infinite world of complex geometric patterns that are made out of love and understanding right right but now there's these names in there they might have yeah right this entity she feels something in there that knows you and I don't know if it's you that knows you it's like you that gets really all your about them separations dissolve is my is my suspicion is that there is no separate there is no subject object there is only one this now you yourself just said is but starts to feel like it's about loving and oneness so that level of consciousness exists so my belief is that our systems whether it's our athletic systems our entertainment systems and certainly our economic political and social systems should be

122:48as close as possible to that feeling that feeling should be our guiding light so I'm not criticizing Conor McGregor the great genius like I'm fascinated by adore or Kurt Cobain or anyone I'm just saying isn't it odd that the you of person experienced in your way through DMT and I have through yoga and meditation and I done when I was a kid this sense of oneness this love that seems to transcend my personal form and everything I believe in and yet when it comes to our systems for organizing this plane that we live on the Material Plane the choices we make are not about that love and understanding they're about the kind of about resources and elitism you know so it's I'm not interested in the 1% and all that stuff I don't be interested but what more interested in is why are us our systems not more representative of the divine pure truth that we can access through spirituality

123:42well I think our systems are based on the monkey need for survival and this sort and that's not good is it we should get beyond that well I think we will but I think it takes a long time just like we were talking about before I mean unless you want to get the world to do DMT tomorrow I mean if we had a DMT day boy that would change a lot of I'm very interested in that I mean a very like I think that's the role of the role of the shame and the role of the artist I think is to get in the role of the comic and even the role the shaming I mean that's important point that gets that gets distorted there's a lot of people that go down South America because they have this romantic vision of what a shaman is going to do to them and that they're gonna go and experience and then they encounter some shyster who really just learned how to make ayahuasca to prey on

124:23Gringo's I mean that's that's a big big part of the narrative that a lot of people experience when they go down and do that with the wrong people or yeah yeah and that happens may I say because of systems of commodification materialism and profiteering it does but it also it happens because people are just like looking at an opportunity there they're opportunistic they're they're desperate maybe they've been mistreated maybe they sure don't they don't have a particularly you know healthy view of human beings well I reckon is this I'm Stanley it's not the four men in my mind just over the course of this conversation it's like like you said earlier there's the potential for good and the potential for bad in all of us sure but I see our culture as a magnet and the magnet is pulling out the worst stuff and what I think is it would be possible to have a magnet that was

125:10pulling out the best stuff but it has some of the best stuff too like what happen in Houston okay they have this giant hurricane that comes down Houston I have my friend John Dudley went down down there and brought supplies and was feeding people and organized a bunch of other people to help and do the same thing and there was a ton of people that were doing the same ton of people that were donating their time and their money and they were using their boats to help get people out of their homes and there's a video that I saw there was an amazing video these two guys talking after they didn't know each other and they were they were they're being interviewed and they were saying that the love that they experienced helping all these people pull pulling them out of the wreckage of this horrible natural disaster that was it was like nothing they'd ever felt that this love was

125:50amazing that all these people were being completely altruistic they were being completely generous and just helping and just the I think in times of crisis are you familiar with uh Sebastian Junger no Sebastian Junger is an amazing war journalist and he wrote a great book called tribe and his how his book is essentially all about how human beings really only feel at their best and they're happiest when they're coming together to only on something and so that in this in this moment of overcoming this incredible natural disaster that you blame it on industrial capitalism and global warming blame all that on the the hurricane at the end of the day it's a force of nature that no one saw coming no one can there's no one that pulled that trigger right there's a guy in Vegas that pulled that trigger but there's no one that pulled the trigger on that hurricane it was collective it

126:44was it was a thing of nature that together that is beautiful but of course they agree that anything where human beings come together like that is glorious but both of those examples that you're using as you yourself alluded to you know you can look at what conditions create hurricane easy it could have that hurricane has hurricanes have happened forever but that's only fifty percent of my point there's only fifty percent point the other fifty percent of my point is that that guy put in the trigger isn't just an individual he is like you said when I was like touching you on the shaming thing they are maybe that shaming had a bad day and that's why it's become a slippery shaming well no this guy like there's so the shooter like of course we all have individual culpability but similarly he is a product of our culture is a product of this again system so like you know there is one

127:35form of analysis that says you know there are meteorological disasters that are detached from reality and and of course meteorology is its own thing an individual free will you know there are some neurologists I'm sure you know say that doesn't even exist our inner nature our inner meteorology the biochemistry of our system is governing everything but certainly there are connections between each of us that create the way that we behave you know if like if if I have an experience in here where I walk out feeling intimidated maybe I'll be less kind to people I work with that's a less extreme example of a you know the brutal murders and the more obvious example aware of it we're aware of it which is one of the reasons why altruistic behavior kind behavior loving community these all these things are rewarded because we do understand that those do enforce a

128:24better way of people behaving and that real determinism like people like if you if you really truly don't have free will well we know that we would like people to behave kinder because whatever fact the play in the people going out and behaving in a nicer kinder way they're a part of that that we know that that's the fuel of that so isn't then the role of us as individuals finding our own Conor McGregor our own greatness our own heroism to create as much as possible a space for their altruism a space for that philanthropy a space for that together nurse to create those moments like you said without hurricane web and we've all experienced there I know when I do something nice for soap for other people I started this is who I'm meant to be this is one meant to be doing but I in my own personal life gets sidetracked by a I've got these economic imperatives I don't wanna

129:14feel great about myself because of other people's applause or you know verification like it like because we are all flawed because we are continually going to battle between the monkey in us the primal little creature in us and the great angel within us what if we have an agreement on a social level that what we're aiming towards is the most benevolent the most beautiful and on an individual level we try and do it and communally we encourage each other towards it knowing that we're going to up and fail all the time but that we're heading in that direction together instead of what we have which is a system that's about make as much money as you can and get out you're only a four hundred years line up the that is the system that we have that is capitalist consumerism that's what it's based on this is a machine the machine makes money it's gotta have infinite expands an infinite growth that

130:02is that is the system I'm not saying that it is very fatalistic well look I don't think I can change the world you are doing it and you're not you're not living that way so a system that you're talking about it's escapable you've asked it yes and you're not and we're talking about it and there's no there's no like Willy Wonka golden ticket that's gonna get you out of the system I don't trust Willy Wonka as far as I can throw him shake those on Palumbo's where'd he get him I don't think I should be working it's and that chocolate what's in that chocolate that poor boy drowning in it was Johnny Depp behaving like a young girl what's his weird way of talking lot of questions I think it was about Michael Jackson I think my chocolate factory beautiful deal exactly I don't want to grow up come here you I think to go back to it there is thicken my wand I think that this

131:01fatalistic thing that it's just designed to it I don't think it's designed to do anything I just think it is it is I agree with that I even agree with that I think I think that what we live in is the manifestation of our most primal desires greed or not even necessary greed survival and I think that if you extrapolate on that system you end up with what we've got but I think an alternative way of being something that might be a corrective part for us is to look at those this feelings that you described of the outer ISM in that hurricane the feeling of greatness in an individual in the way an individual can pool communities together it's sort of like it's not a binary choice I know the world's more complicated than that Jo but like I suppose my quest and indeed me my book is about how I individually have got my head and I wrenched myself away from selfishness and greed and pride on

131:50a daily basis and pull myself toward altruism and love and self betterment a part of it keep myself fit mentally spiritually so I can be a better part of this excuse me system and perhaps through my self-improvement create better systems because there is all this energy there's all this power and I think is a shame that it gets siphoned in a particular direction right well that that feeling you express and as you express it and express it honestly that resonates with people and I think this what we're talking about is the 49.9% and 50.1% that Rick Strassman was describing it is this constant battle and there's not an easy path I don't think the system operates at the 50:49 level I think the system's way way towards the negative system like a cultural system at the economic system human beings and thus in this say capitalist country or where they say I don't know enough about what

132:44goes down in China so I'll say like sort of global capitalism say and again I'm not economist I'm just picking up from listen to your podcast and have a podcast yeah I mean that's where I'm getting educated I've luckily turned up at university lately I'm tripping down that coffee man right deep I have a toilet and maybe poo hello ever been in here do you feel like I've done enough about my book we've done 2 hours and 20 minutes we clear out this got a clock there you've got these advantages there's Buddha's in every direction only one clock I didn't know at the time is a clock there there's a clock there they're all facing you Rogen anybody was a guest to think about time this is what this is the system yeah I'm just some johnny-come-lately kid from England with a dream with a dream I come over here to the layout a dream to sell books obviously how dare you point out that

133:42obviously poxy can I do it good technically we're open that door and the first door on the right nah man it's beautiful don't worry about it no no no you're good man don't worry you're good told you that caveman coffee was gonna get him well you were gonna pull something up about Naz I think I didn't know if you knew he was a venture capitalist I mean like I know he opens up restaurant that sweet chick place potentially if his companies sell soon I don't know how that cut happens or if he comes public he could be what they're saying is hip hop's first true billionaire no words that says there's only like if that celebrity network there's like 17 million okay that doesn't include all the companies he owns and has been in for a long time you know about that I knew I knew about his restaurant because friends would ever last and never last goes to that sweet

134:40chick I think every last has a piece of that to I don't know maybe doesn't but he took me to it in New York and took me to it in LA once we went there but if they were playing music that was so loud I was literally hurting my ears Naz is like half man half venture capitalist look at that beautiful suit he's got on he's got a pocket square end like a little small chain have you ever seen the small chain now with the own interesting yeah there's a lot of those make a ton of money smart why not you know I mean it shows you that they you know they could figure out a way through just their art to get to this weird position where I mean if Naz really does make a billion dollars like still makes amazing music though that's my point my point is that his music never went commercial it's musics fantastic someone was saying I was reading some stuff that he supposedly tried remember he had a rap

135:35battle a bit beef hit a couple beers jay-z with like Puff Daddy to hate me now thing oh yeah he also wrote ghost wrote for Will Smith I don't know that really means he's sold out but that's not selling out that's just writing for a friend but the rap battles I think is more just ego thing someone talks about him he talks about them you know you alright brother alright yeah you got a copy your book you're not around you brought a copy back now you want to show everybody here give it to me I'll hold it up so you don't feel bad experience freedom from our addictions Russell Brand ladies and gentlemen let's wrap this thing up man we've talked about mm 20 minutes yeah it's good beautiful you kicked it kicked it into the orbit I didn't change the bit that I wrote about you as a matter of fact because I didn't know you wrote about me in there yeah yeah now you're interested I'm

136:29feeling good it was slightly it was I realized I asked him to put in the word seemingly cuz I thought that I'd been too reductive and you know me like I'm having this experience like we're part of the book is about trying to explain how in the addicts mind you're trapped in this constant cyclone of himself obsessive for and the outside world seems some ass with distance you can't connect to it right so as well as explain how to go through the steps I talk through like this is what it's like to be my it so I'm like this is me out of my dog my dog causes all these problems all the time and I run into these people and I say all I know like you know and I run into them and I start I don't want to go and talk to them because I feel self-conscious cuz they look kind of like cool I think I've got go over these people I'm gonna feel inadequate all I know is how I feel and that's all

137:18unless I learn I can learn a new system for being Bill this guy comes over and says hello while I stand now on the goose we're on this riverbank vaguely embarrassed by bear my dog bears looping enthusiasm I heard you and Joe rogue and he says Joe Rogan the former mixed martial artist commentator comedian and host of the world's most downloaded podcast is himself an interesting example of new emerging models of masculinity a fusion of right-wing individualism and new-age tolerance a fierce autodidact he has become a champion of American libertarianism and is to me fascinating because he's clever and a good fighter there you go there's me mentioning you in passing now I went over whenever II wrote it I said you better put in seemingly because I think I think I've been reductive they're saying me saying right-wing individualism and newer but what do you think about that Joe there

138:08you are yeah I don't know how much right-wing I have in me I'm exactly libertarian libertarian yeah the right-wing stuff is probably if you talk to a real bright winger then go to you talking about yeah I think you're right I mean I think like libertarianism would have covered it better but this was written a point writing I hadn't listened to as much stuff so I've changed it there's a man you can come on here any time you want I love dark Ania you're awesome do you think so we have a great time we do have a great time know what's going back to your new studio that sounds like your own version of a willy wonka podcast land the thing is you know like this is why I don't take drugs is because I've drank quite a caffeine and I'm slightly scared of going back to like my normal life you know parachuting back into that I've got your book download your podcast under the skin

139:05with Russell Brand under the skin with Russell Brand goodbye everybody