Ben O'Brien

00:03Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day. Oh, hi Ben O'Brien. Hey Joe Rogan. God, it feels really comfortable in here. Been a while. I know. I missed you. Oh, this is uh so appropriate that I'm mixing this with a nice little Benchade knife. We're We're making rye brains. We This is a uh Well, we figured out a couple of different drinks. one time on a hunting trip in Lai and one of them was the cat lady. That was John Dudley's creation. The cat lady. I There's no way to know. Do you remember what was in the cat lady? The cat lady had uh Red Bull, red wine, and I think it was tequila. Tequila for sure. Yeah. And uh there's no way there's no way to really That John Dudley's everybody's uncle. He can put him away. Who can Yeah. Yeah. He knows how to put him away. And we did a podcast. Podcast in Paradise.

01:02It was Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Who was on that? Remy was on that one. Remy Sam Soho was on that one. Shane Dorian. Oh, it was a classic. And we had a giant like dinner table in my hotel room just covered with bottles and you emptied the mini bar. You were like, "Guys, guys, let's have a podcast." We literally opened up the mini bar and uh I don't even remember what equipment we used to record. I was employed then as a marketing person. I was like, "This is it." Was that when you were working for Yeti? Yeah. I was like, "This is the end of my career. This is I think I might even told you guys after like Yeah, that could be it for me. That could be a problem." We got a little wild, but I don't think it was that bad. No, no, I don't think we said anything that was too crazy. I think we did just fine. We created the worst drink ever. And people actually,

01:51to the discredit American public, people actually made that and drank that. Start drinking cat. They did. They weren't that bad. Which is the surprising part. Yeah. The ry brain, which is what we're making now. That was your creation, I believe. I want to say Dudley was also involved, but Ry Brain is uh Alphabrain instant. The the delicious Alphabrain is like a memory. Yeah. Well, it is normally like it's just a supplement, but we have Alpha Brain instant you add to water. It actually tastes good. This one I'm drinking here is lemon. No, pineapple. This one? Yeah, I was stirring my drink. I didn't have a spoon, so I was stirring it with a pack of coconut lime flavor. Oh, with a little gave me this sweet little knife. Oh, look at that. Look how light that is. You done any It's got like a little design on it. You done any work with this on animal parts?

02:41No. No, that's just a little carry one. They gave it to me when I was in um Portland. I did a show up in Portland. They gave me Don't fly on a plane. You probably fly private. Don't fly on a plane with that. They'll take it away from you. No, dude. Jaco gave me a big ass [ __ ] knife and uh I had it in my fanny pack. I went straight through security, no problem. And then I sent him a photo of it from my hotel room. I go, "Hey," I go, "Look who's protecting your air." [ __ ] TSA. Let me I think if it's in a fanny pack, though. Oh, yeah. They figure this guy's safe. He's not going to do anything. He's wearing a fanny pack. He's a good guy. He's It's leather. It's, you know, it's shiny. Well, don't a lot of people use fanny packs for concealed carry. Yeah, that is popular in the concealed carry world. Have you seen those Velcro

03:22ones that they have that you just like pull a tab or let's let's no offense concealed carry world but it's not the most fashionforward ever. It isn't if you're not worried about getting laid just it's a pract but you can defend yourself in my truck or my car rather my fanny pack carry it everywhere. I don't No, I mean the first time I met you you had one on. I I [ __ ] really wear one. I know you really do. I often tell people they're like how's Joe Rogan? I'm like well he wears fanny packs. I don't know. You take What are we doing here? What's your So, you put it in the water. So, put a little bit of there. So, we got a little water. Oh, whiskey. We need the whiskey. Since we're in Austin, what kind of whiskey are we going to go with? Well, is Jamie You going to have one, Jamie? He's going No. Got a couple different choices. I feel like you know this one

04:12as a someone gave us this one. He had three of them. Names on it. So, what do you got there? Buffalo Trace. That's delicious. Is this the one that uh Sanjay Gupta gave me? Might be. Could be. I think it is. And then Buffalo Trace, which is probably my favorite, which is pretty good. But then still Austin, since we're in Austin, probably have a little local flavor. Did you see this guy yesterday go viral? Cuz Blade, the security guard guy on the left. Look at them knee pads and [ __ ] What's in his stuck in his pants? A hatchet. I think it's a sword. That looks like a hatchet. He's a real security guard. It says on there's agent wolf security. I don't know. I was trying to look I'm gonna go on a limb and say that guy lives alone, right? He's one of those dudes. Small apartment. Just a couch. Or maybe like a trailer in the woods. Yeah.

04:59You know, and he's out there doing karate and [ __ ] moonlight. Sure. Listen to moonlight. This is going to be this is going to taste nostalgic. I feel like Joe, this will bring us back to hunting and better times. Not better times. Not better times. Different times. Perfect times. How dare you? There are good times in this in this little time machine you got here? Yeah. This is I was I was telling this is my third studio. Yeah. You've been to all of them. All the studios. Well, yeah. Been to the one that was in my house. That was the first one. That was the early one. So, I don't Yeah, I don't want to overhype my That was before I knew this was a job. That was uh back. Cheers. Cheers, my brother. Good to see you, my brother. Very good to see you. It's good to be here. Yeah, that was um that's deep. The one in the house was like, "This is just for fun."

05:46Because I was Yeah. You guys filmed it. Yeah. Or you like live streamed it, didn't you? Yeah. Well, we we had a um a like a my office that we set up and I just put a table in the office and put like a little webcam on and it was it was just for fun. It was all just a goof. Well, I tell people like my biggest regret in life, although there are many, one of them is when I first met you, we went moose hunting. Mhm. The whole the time we had a a [ __ ] hell of a time. I didn't laugh more in a truck my whole life. Like that was fun. [ __ ] fun. And you said, "You should do a podcast, man. Do a podcast. I'll help you out. Do a podcast." And I was thinking, I work for a magazine. That's the real media. Joe Rogan's over there in his basement with his buddies doing live. That's what everybody said. Everybody said and I didn't listen to you. It took me a

06:31while to get there. But if I had to have listened to you when you first told me, I think it was seven years ago this month. It might have been This might be like the sevenyear week anniversary of that, huh? Or seven or eight years ago. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. So, how long has this been going? 12 years. Yeah. This is a 12-y old podcast now. Oh [ __ ] Yeah. The only ones who were doing it before me were Corolla, uh, Maron. Um, there was a couple guys that were doing it before me. Yeah. You had the guy on that was the podfather. Was that guy's name? Lives here. Oh, yeah. Adam Curry. He's the OG. He's the He's definitely been doing it longer. I mean, he [ __ ] invented this [ __ ] and he's I love that guy. He's awesome. He's so [ __ ] smart and so tuned in and he does everything like completely

07:14independent, you know? He's got one of them [ __ ] Linux phones. Like he only uses Signal, you know? Like everything's blockchain. He's one of them guys, you I don't know how to smoke a cigar, so for the people watching, you probably You just do it. Just [ __ ] go. Figure it out along the way. But he's he's fully dialed in. Yeah, like Adam Curry's the most dialed in guy. Like he's he's the one who's always uh alerting me to [ __ ] like weird [ __ ] that they're doing about with with voting or with the internet or with, you know, the digital rights. And you know, you feel like you have kind of a uh a a back alley inter like information group of people that are just sharing stuff with you all the time. Yeah. A lot of information comes to you. Yeah. A lot of information comes to me because people want me to get it out and

08:07I usually butcher it. Me too. It comes out all [ __ ] comes out through my meatthead mouth and then goes in my ear. Yeah, got it. Got it. All right, let me tell everybody and then I got you, bro. I got you, bro. Yeah. And then I always I'm terrible at that. And you think of the important points of history and things that you want to ideas you want to articulate to people about things that are very important to you. Yeah. And you almost invariably [ __ ] it up. And we could all just do a little bit better to to acknowledge that with each other. Like this is hard. Well, you know what it is also? It's like we have many interests and that is uh that's my main problem. I have so many interests. If you want to talk to me about very specific things that I've studied for most of my life, right? I can give you a very detailed like you

08:52could wake me up at two o'clock in the morning and ask me uh uh what martial arts is the best martial art? And I go, "Okay, well this is what we know." and then I can give you like a very detailed nuanced perspective on what we've learned about, you know, handtohand combat. Yeah. And and everybody has like one or two of those subjects that they know really well. And that's when you get into like public speaking or doing stuff like this where you can go all day about that stuff. the rest of it you have at best ancillary knowledge of what you're talking about at best second knowledge especially if you're a person that has many interests because there might be multiple things that you're really fascinated by you know I I always say that I wish I had many lives that I could live simultaneously because I I would have a bunch of different occupations

09:38and you've gone deep on many things just in your life like pool when I first met you still addicted to pool addicted to pool and then we got you addicted to hunting archery Yeah, those guy everybody got deep into that and you find like especially going outside you find that there's so many crafts even even in the outdoor world that I live in there's so many little crafts that you can you've got the archery one. Yeah, the bow hunting one is a is a big one because there's like hunting which is a fascinating really difficult pursuit and people don't understand how difficult it is especially on public land you know it's a it's a very hard pursuit it is and especially if you want if you want to fill your freezer up on a regular basis and you want to eat mostly wild game you and you if you especially those do-it-yourself guys I [ __ ] give all

10:25the credit in the world to those dudes bro I tell you a story when I moved to Bosezeman I I had killed big elk right I had killed if came to my house, you might say, "This big elk killing guy. This guy has the the bonafites to tell me how to kill elk." But I had never really done it on my own all with guides. Yeah, most of it I did. I had one I killed one big elk on public land, but again, it was a rifle hunt and I had a buddy helping me and I didn't really I didn't gather the intellectual property in a way that I felt was appropriate to say this is my this is the thing that I did. This is a craft that I can now say I'm a part of. I'm a craftsman in this thing. And so that that idea stuck with me. And so I went to when I moved to Boseman, I thought I have to understand the the most difficult version of this elk hunting. I'm going to go fi figure that out. And

11:13that's by yourself on your own. Find where elk live, learn their habits, learn how they talk, and then be proficient enough with a bow in this case to get close enough to get close enough and kill one. Did you do scouting online? Did you use like Onyx maps? I use Onyx maps for e scouting. I went deep and I and I'm also a young father. I got a lot going on. So I'm like I want to I want it to be close to my house, right? One, I want to be able to include my friends in this. There's a lot of things I want to be able to do and and I so I wanted to to just understand the craft deeper because you I'm sure you know with hunting especially there's no bottom to how deep you can go in terms of learning. There's no you could never get to a full breath of knowledge ever. So many layers impossible. So, I said, I'm going to go in public land of

11:59Montana. I'm going to learn to call. I'm going to be I'm already proficient with a bow, but I'm going to learn everything. I don't want anybody tell me their spot. I don't want anybody to tell me where they all hang out. And it took me two years. Wow. I had a lot of shitty days in the woods where I thought I was an idiot. I was like walking around going, maybe this will never happen. Did you like when when you started out, did you remember anything that you'd learned hunting with guides? Like did you weren't starting from scratch, right? So you probably No, no, I wasn't starting from scratch. I had a lifetime of hunting knowledge, right? A lifetime of understanding how to to so I don't want to understate my abilities, but understanding kind of how to work a landscape, how to understand where animals want to be. It's pretty simple a lot of times.

12:41So I had all this knowledge in my head, but I didn't what I didn't really have was the application of that knowledge, right? I I had been I've been in the industry, hunting industry since I was 22. M and so I had this base of knowledge but I hadn't carried it out and and in my mind it was always in when you get in the industry you get handed experiences they're like hey go hey this is going to be cool so you get a suite of experiences that don't exactly add up to skill and craft and so I was like started from scratch sound like [ __ ] as an out caller been about three years ago three and a half years ago sounded like [ __ ] but just went in my truck and when I was driving around I'd be calling when my wife got pissed at me I'd go sit in my truck in the driveway Okay. With the heat on and just blow this alcohol.

13:23You'd blow cow call or you'd blow like a bugle. A full bugle tube in the car. In my driveway. That's why your ears are ringing, man. It's not titis. But that was it. So for me, that was it was it's a craft, right? Bohing is a craft, but learning to talk like an elk is itself kind of this immersive craft. So I went along that path. I found a spot where elk hang out. I got a lot of stories about that particular spot where I learned where when the elk were there, when they weren't, where they like to be, how they like to use the landscape. We had a lot of grizzly bears. A lot of wolves in that area. Did you see any? Oh, yeah. A lot of grizzly. One grizzly. Yeah. Big [ __ ] Did something happen? Uh, this would have been last year. Me and my dad are in the spot where I killed my elk this year in September. And I was struggling through the season.

14:12My dad comes to town. I'm like, "Dad, I'm gonna show you how to let's go get an elk. Yeah, I'll show you. Little does he know, I don't know what the [ __ ] going on at all. I'm just I got it, buddy. I got it. So, we go up to my spot. If you picture, it's like a bowl like this. You know, the elk live in the bowl. It's a drainage. We go to the top of the bowl. And I hit the call and I look up the ridge and above us is this big bull elk. He's going across the ridge above us. And so, I know how to use this ridge where he was on. that he was going to come down, hit the spine that we were on and then come down the ridge towards us. So I said, "Dad, get in front of me. I'm going to go back here and call and I'm and we'll draw him past you. You get a shot." So I start calling, make a little el cow call this I didn't want to bugle. I didn't want to

15:00He was dominant. I didn't want to get run over, but I wanted to kind of entice him this way. So I was just cow calling and it wasn't it was a little bit after the rut, so it wasn't full rut. And he starts coming. I see him look over and he starts coming down the ridge. So, I get all set up and I look back to where he came from and this big brown flash goes down the hill. I thought it was him. So, I said, "Daddy, get ready. He's coming down. He's running. He's coming in." Oh, Jesus. And I'm I'm looking this way and the bottom of the drainage is behind me. And I knew the longer story is that I knew a buddy of mine had killed his brother-in-law had killed an elk in the drainage to the day before. I had a trail camera in that spot. That trail camera had picked up wolves literally probably 500 yards from where we were standing at that moment. I had a

15:49trail camera that only weeks before had picked up wolves killing cattle. Wow. Chasing cattle. I got videos on my phone. Wolves killing cattle. And so I had talked to the game board and I said, "Hey man, just want to let you know you should tell the landowner his cows are getting whacked up here." And he said, "Listen," I said, "Well," he said, "Are you going to hunt the carcass of the cow that was killed?" I said, "No, not necessarily interested in that." He said, 'Well, good, because there's a grizzly bear in this. There's a big boar grizzly bear, male grizzly bear in this zone, and you know how they are. They can smell smell a carcass from five, seven miles away. He said, "He'll probably be over." I said, "Okay." Noted. And he said, "If if you kill an elk, get it out of here." So, my buddy kills an elk. It snows when he kills this elk. This is the day

16:36before we were there. He said there were wolf tracks on his tracks. He had one pack out to the truck with half the elk. Went back to get the other half. There were wolf prints on his tracks in the time it took for him to go back to the truck and then come back for the rest of the How How long is the hike out? I I can't imagine it was more than 45 minutes. So, they were waiting. They were waiting. They probably Did he rifle hunt or bow hunt? This bow hunt. They They probably know. They know. When they see you, they're like, "Oh, this guy's going to go shoot that guy over there. Look at that little look at that silly little [ __ ] just prancing around his camo. Not only that, they leave behind the best part for a wolf, the liver. Like a lot of people live leave behind the guts. You've been taking livers lately? Oh yeah, dude. I eat it all the time. Yeah.

17:19It makes you feel good. Like you remember we ate that moose liver? I do remember. I remember cuz Mike was like not into it. We had we were we were drinking uh peppermint schnaps or something. We were drinking everything he had. Oh, that was awful. I remember getting on the plane the next day be like if somebody could smell they probably could. I think I have a photo that I was just looking at us. I have a video of you describing my moose kill that if we could find it. Let me try to find that video. People would be entertained. This was amazing cuz you're like I was just running and I don't know why. Well, it was going as it went down as your moose went down. I started running towards it. I'm like why am I running? I was so excited to see it because it was so big. You're like, "Let me explain to people what it looked like." The first time I saw, shout out to our

18:11friend Mike Hawkridge who he's the best. He's an awesome guy and he lives up there in BC and he's got some wild stories about wolves. He's got some wild stories about wolves. Wasn't there like a bunch of wolves that took out someone's cow like right outside of his house? Yes. Yeah. And there was Man, I I can't even remember. If he was here, he would regail us with so many of them. But when you're in he spends so much time outside and he's he's has horses and cattle and he he spends time on the res up there. Yeah. Reservation up there and and when you're in that environment and I've never I'm an East Coast kid, dude. I When I was 15, he'd be like, "Hey, one day you'll be living in Grizz Country." [ __ ] that. That's not real. That's not real. I'm gonna find this video. We're going to go back to this grizzly bear story cuz people are like, "Where are you?"

18:59They're used to that. They get used to it. Um, so we found a wolf kill. Do you remember that? I do remember that. I have pictures. See if you can find that cuz it's on my Instagram. Um, it's on my Instagram from seven years ago. I promise. It's like when I first got an Instagram. I mean, Everlast, there was a Everlast Ever from the House House of Pain. He's the one who talked me into having an Instagram. I mean, he's like, "You should have an Instagram." I was like, "Oh, the [ __ ] I already got a Twitter." Well, I got a thing on my Facebook like uh seven year anniversary of the moose hunt. So So years ago, it was this video that I'm about to find here. So hopefully there I don't know. It's on This is going to be shitty audio. Second. Time laughing, joking. All of a sudden, Mike goes, "Holy [ __ ] two bulls." We

19:49stop the truck. You jump out. Within 10 seconds, the first shot goes off. Boom. The moose drops. I I don't know. I might have yelled shoot him again or something. Who knows what happened. The moose dropped. You're You've got this. I have an Elvis t-shirt on. Elvis doing karate. Worst podcast about four shots. And then this is my favorite part. I realize I'm running. I'm halfway to the bull. It's down. It's kicking and I'm halfway there and I'm like, I guess I'm running. And so I get there. I don't know why. I was I guess I wanted to be there when it died. I don't know why. So I get there and this enormous [ __ ] horse on steroids is it was so big, dude. When we saw those Let me tell me explain the first time I saw Moose live. It was like Jeff Goldlum in Jurassic Park where he like pops his head out of the

20:39Jeep. Like what the [ __ ] I'd never seen They do move in herds. Yeah. They're so big. They're so big. When you first seen I had seen deer before, but when you see a moose on the hoof. I mean, back then I had never seen an elk. I saw This is early in your hunting. Yes. Very very early. Yeah, this is super early. This is like the second or third hunt I'd ever been on. You got to pull up that cover, Jamie, that we did for Peterson's hunting. Yes, it was me carrying the the moose and I was making a cardinal sin. I I was wearing some first light stuff like that. You were man of the people. What are you doing? You're bringing people together. What are you doing? This is the thing in the hunting world like you have to be committed. There it is. I'm wearing a first light shirt and sick pants. Yeah. And this So Ben and I met because Ben

21:24was working for Peterson's hunting magazine. That's right. And uh he contacted me and said, "You want to go on a moose hunt?" And I was like, "Fuck yeah." And I had just gotten into hunting back then. It was a completely new endeavor for me, but I was obsessed like right away early on. Yeah. This was early early in your evolution. There's a video right there. Joe Rogan, I'm not very good at hunting. I'm not I'm not tell everybody. Well, I I back I mean, I've been hunting now for nine years. And I say that I'm like a purple belt in hunting. Yeah, that's how I describe it. And you know, Cal um Ryan Callahan likes that analogy. I like because it's like if you're honest about like jiu-jitsu honesty is like you know like there's white belt, blue belt, purple belt, brown belt, black belt. So I'm like a purple like now all these years in I'm a purple belt in hunting

22:19and even as I was saying earlier you you could pick lanes there. Yeah. You know cuz I'm I'm in kind of like hunting knowledge and overall I spent 12 years reading articles, writing articles, thinking about this, podcasting about this. So, like maybe I'm a black belt in kind of being able to talk about it, but that doesn't mean you have the physical ability, the mental stamina, you know, really to to put the time in. And that's really a big part of it, too. You have to be immersed and put the time in, and you have to sacrifice other things in your life. Mhm. And go outside and suffer. And you have to get a a feel for like how things work. Like there's there's choices that you make when you're hunting, when you're in the field, like do you go left? Do you go right? Do you try to cut this animal off? Do you wait it out? Yeah. Like what what do you do? Do you

23:05like do you try to play the wind or do you try to take a chance while things are swirling? Like there's so many and even to this day, like you talk to Cam Haynes, who's a absolute black belt in hunting that I would agree with. Yeah. 100%. Nobody would disagree with that. He's the probably I would say he's the greatest bow hunter alive. That's my feeling. I'm with you. That guy makes mistakes. Yeah. He'll tell you. He's like, I took a chance. I try to do this. I try to shoot him slightly quartering towards. I try to do this. I try to do that. And it's it's one of those things where you try to describe it as there's a bunch of topics here all mixed together, but one of them is that why do we hunt in the modern sense, right? What are we out there doing? We'll get back to the doing two things. We're getting meat and we're also having like a transformative experience.

23:47Yeah. But what bring that back a little bit. Think about game theory. This is the most immersive real in in a real sense game that you can play. Yes. And it it's a three-dimensional game because it has you go play a video game and what do you get at the end? You get the dopamine kick. You get the kind of critical thinking that it takes. You get the muscle memory, whatever. You get all those things that are beneficial. Yeah. But in the sense of hunting and we tend to focus on one part of the game or the other but the game itself is out understanding an animal, understanding the landscape it uses, understanding its ecology and biology and the history of the landscape and catching it while it's horny. Catching it while it's horny. It's weak. It's weak as dirty. It's weak as [ __ ] It's such a dirty game because you catch

24:31them in the rut while they're making bad mistakes cuz they're trying to get some. There was probably some place to scene hunter thinking about when do mammoths [ __ ] you know, when do the mammoths in the rut and when can I take advantage in a very similar sense to what we do with white tailed deer and elk and the things that we pursue. So you're like, well, I'm going to take advantage of this thing. But the game theory, I think, is in a modern sense because we could just get meat at the store. Game theory is what draws us in. But what keeps us there and what becomes kind of like what I always think of is the side benefit of hunting, not the reason we go is is the meat and what that provides for you. Cuz if you were you think about the the the activity of hunting, you would do it holistically different if you were just after meat, right?

25:12You would do it holistically different if you were just after antlers or horns, right? You would do it holistically different if you were just out there for exercise. Yeah. It's the package of the game of hunting, the game theory that makes it attractive. That's very well put. Yeah. And then the byproduct of that game is real. You can taste it, you can smell it, you can [ __ ] feel it. And it sustains you. It does. And I I I really I'm like I'm dude I'm 54 and you know there's a lot of supplements and hormones and all sorts of other things that go into why I I still can work out and do things like I could when I was 34 and even 24. But I think game meat is a part of that. I really do. It's [ __ ] super healthy. I have a picture of my dad. I was just down yesterday. I'm like fresh out of the woods. We were see deer hunting in

26:05Maryland with my with my dad. He shoots this hind, which is a female seea deer and we hung it up, had a few beers, went to sleep, woke up the next morning, skinned it, cut it up and ate the backstraps and I did the French cut backstraps. Remember on the lai bone in Yeah. And as you're going through this process, you get to see the transformation from a thing that walks around to a thing that's on the plate. And in that case, it was like microwave. You're boom, done. It's on the plate and you see it and you can see the redness of the meat. We're used to this like [ __ ] marbling that we've created in beef. Yeah. This is just just flesh. It's the difference between LeBron James and a gamer. Yeah. Like a a fat Twitch gamer. That's the difference. It's like the difference between like a a super athlete, a Brock Lesnar thigh steak,

26:54you know? You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm That's what it It's pure and it's, you know, thick. It's thick and pure and it's just it's just the redness, the richness of it, nutrient rich, dense. And even if even the muscles that are used quite often in the animal, like if you think of uh shank meat or things that are muscles that are that are used a lot, so they become really tough. They got a lot of senue, a lot of tendons, a lot of things you got to work through to get the meat out. When you slow cook them, you still get to you almost get to taste the effort of the animal. Yeah. Like it's so beautiful to peel off the meat from a shank. But you know, I'm starting to change my opinion on tender meat. You know, there's a thing about tender meat where it's easy to eat and and everything, but that's the reason why people have like

27:39bunched up teeth and small jaws. Do you know that? Like that's what's happening to humans. There's a I I believe his name is name John MW. There's a there's a there's a a guy who has a theory about this who created this technique called mewing. And it literally changes the structure of your jaw. And it's like a a stress technique. You're doing things to like stress your jaw is like I think you put your tongue and your pallet and you but the the idea is that the reason why people develop these like small jaws and the pe the reason why people are um their facial structures changing and their teeth are getting bunched up. his thought, and it's not just his, it's many people that understand uh human beings and I guess evolution, is that we're eating soft food that doesn't require you to have a strong jaw like we used to have to have during the caveman

28:31days, the Paleolithic days. Yeah. And that um like strong like tough meat is what we're supposed to be eating. Like that's that's what that's what made our jaws like like when you look at a a person you're like look at that guy with his [ __ ] strong jaw like strong jawline that's a that's a human characteristic that it's an admirable that's an admirable one has a strong jawline comes from eating meat like tough meat you don't get that from mashed potatoes only true you just don't but I tell you that backstrap from that secret was like melt in your mouth it's delicious it's delicious but I think those those flank steaks and you know the different cuts off the shoulder. Steak off the front shoulder. Yeah. Chewy meat. You're supposed to eat that stuff. It's supposed that's that's like a part of the reason why your jaw is

29:21supposed to be strong. And the the thing about this MW guy is that for the longest time, people thought that it was genetics that shaped and structured a person's face. But what he's showing through his exercises and other people are showing through similar things. Like I have a a device that I use. I forget what it's called, but it's basically like a a half of a rubber ball that I put in my mouth and I bite down on and I do reps with with my jaw reps. Yeah. Yeah. Where do you do this at? Do you do it in the house? Okay. Like in my office. It sits in my office. I put it in there and sometimes when I'm scrolling things online, I go, "Yeah, I'm crazy." No, you're not crazy. You got problems. Well, you got problems. Yeah, that's true. That's my problem. It's like I I try all kinds of other things. Oh, your problem is you're always trying to better yourself. Yes.

30:05And that's annoying for people. So, I try to better my face. I try literally like my jaw has gotten stronger because of this. I've been doing it for years. What can you use that for? You think as an application? It's good to take a punch. If you need to take a punch, your jaw will be stronger. I need to bite things. You have more bite power. Like I chew right through tough meat. But yeah, I appreciate all cuts of meat now because of that. Yeah. And that appreciation comes from every like you know exactly and I as a hunter went also went a long time not knowing how to butcher a full animal from nose to tail and I don't want to overplay what that really is but it is when I open my freezer and I know you've probably talked about this before but when I open my freezer I get this comfort especially during the pandemic right and you look in there that is and I look

30:54oh that's oh my gosh that's the sirloin tip that comes off the hind quarter that's wrapped around the bone. I know I'm going to make a roast out of that. I know that came from an elk that lived right right up there. I know he was three and a half years old. And I turn around, his head's on the wall. I'm like, "Oh, that's cool." I get a lot of satisfaction out of feeling my friend feeding my friends, too. You know, feeding my friends with that the food that I have. And that's the best, you know, because we get into this in my my world. We get into this like how do you promote hunting because not everybody can do what we're talking about because it's not sustainable. There's not enough animals. That's a weird argument that vegans always use. Not everybody can hunt. Well, not everybody's going to Not everybody's going to hunt, but that's

31:31and not everybody's going to do anything that's hard. Not everybody's going to factory farm either. I mean, these are Yeah, that's a that's a straw man in some in so many ways. It is. But if you think about most of the people that are eating meat, they are eating it from these factory farms. They are. And and we have I was thinking about this at some point in the last couple of days where because I was out with I'm with my dad. He's the person who taught me to do this. I don't know if my life would have been different if I had I not gone the path that I went on getting in the hunting industry and making it my life. I mean, I think if I died tomorrow, threequarters of my funeral would be people in the hunting world that I've met and gave relationships with. And it's been my life in the large part. And I was thinking of if that hadn't happened,

32:17where would I be? But I'm I know that I I have shaped and will continue to shape my life around it. M my life will follow it. And I moved to Montana to to have the lifestyle that I want to to give my kids that an opportunity at the very least to to see what that is. And I've watched I there's not there's never been a person I've taken hunting that didn't come out of the experience completely obsessed or completely addicted to it. They just there hasn't been anyone. There's nobody that's been like, "Yeah, it's nice, but I'll do it on the weekends." I can remember very clearly me and Brian Callen and Reanella and Ryan Callahan eating meat from a deer that I killed over a fire in the Missouri brakes in Montana. And then um Reinella asking me, "So, what do you think about hunting?" I said, "I'm doing this for the rest of my life." This is what I'm doing.

33:09And it's like I said, not everybody has to do it, but they have to understand that it's an option. and all you know so many really smart people you've had on this podcast when you start thinking about what's our culture do for us like what's what's the really useful thing that our modern culture does for us I can tell you I don't know but I can tell you what it doesn't do it lays up all these kind of acceptable addictions I'm acceptably addicted to fast food I'm acceptably addicted to my phone to to a sedentary life I'm not saying honey is the only solution for some of those issues, but it is one of them. Yeah, it's one of them. It's a healthy addiction that can substitute some of the unhealthy ones and it's endless. And it, like I said, it's a it's a way to hack into what I think you really are, what you're supposed to be, and the [ __ ] you're

33:57supposed to be doing. And so at some level, you know, I've committed my whole life to telling people about that and saying like it's not for everybody, but I if you do it, you're going to find some kernel of substance that will help cure the the cultural woes that you're and societal woes that you're experiencing. Well, one of the things that I've gotten out of this podcast and having all these conversations with people is trying to trying to um put myself in their mindset and try to examine and understand various experiences that they've had. Whether it's someone who's lived in a monastery or someone who is an ultramarathon runner or someone who's a mathematician, trying to understand them and is It's over the last 12 years, you know, it's radically changed the way I view the world because it's allowed me to have this like really comprehensive

35:01understanding of people that I I do not think would have ever been possible. No, this is like a hive mind you got going here. Yeah. And it's also a massive education. I've had a 12-year education talking to some of the most brilliant people I've ever met and in in all sorts of walks of life like Snoop, like having Snoop on the podcast and seeing his perspective and seeing that guy is a black belt at living life. He's so good at living life. He's so comfortable. He's so kind. First of all, my whole family met him, right? And my daughter has a dog named Snoop. And Snoop had to meet Snoop. And it was the the moment of Snoop meeting Snoop was amazing. He like, you know, he calls himself the dog father. That [ __ ] loves dogs. Dogs love him. He saw that dog and he and he like like gently slow. He's a small dog. It's a

35:48dog that's part Chihuahua and part whip it. Yeah. So he's like petting Snoop. Snoop's my buddy by the way. Snoop. Love Snoop when he sees me runs full clip to me and jumps and I pick him up. Like this is my relationship with my daughter's dog. So like to see Snoop with the real Snoop. I said, "This must be what it feels like for like if a dog with this limited understanding of the world meets a god." Like like I've like, you know what I mean? Like you've heard legend of this this thing that I've been named after this god. Now here I am in his presence and he's so kind to me and so benevolent and petting me and touching me. He loves me. He loves me. Yeah, it was it was amazing. But well, I he was in here and I was watching I only watched the first little bit of it, but it was pretty clear that uh Snoop is Snoop. And he probably was like that from the beginning.

36:40Well, he's learned, you know, he we talked about it during the podcast. He's talked about learning how to be like a peaceful, kind person and learning like from his mistakes and, you know, the early days of gangster rap and getting caught up in all that. Peace West and stuff like that. Yeah, there was that was a big part of the conversation that we had. I really enjoyed his company, man. really really really really enjoyed that. And that's the beautiful thing about sitting down with somebody for that long, locking yourselves in this room and just exchanging Yeah. ideas. There's no hiding. No, there's no hiding over three, four hours, whatever it was with me and him. But at the end of the day, it's like I'm getting this education in people. I'm getting this human education. And I always I always appreciated that because you have that

37:25education and you kept hunting because you could have I know you described like from the first moment that was you knew and I remember you telling me a story of like being at dinner with some with your wife's friend I guess that was a vegan or something like that or didn't was and you were saying I'm hunting and they were just appalled at the fact that you would go out and do something like that while they're just cutting into you know a nice t-bone steak. Yeah. It wasn't they weren't a vegan. Yeah. It was just Yeah. It was a It wasn't I wasn't there. It was my wife was having a conversation with her friend and one of her friends friend from England was this guy who was uh eating a steak saying that it was appalling that I was hunting while he was cutting into a steak. She goes, "Do you not see what's happening here?" And his rationale was that this animal was

38:09raised to be killed and you're going out there killing wild. just pure ignorance and a lack of understanding about conservation. A lack of understanding about con conserving, protecting, and paying for the conservation of wild animals through the, you know, yeah, it's like pitman Robertson act. Well, you get to a point where you love the game. And I think for me as a kid, you don't understand what the game is. You just understand you love it. And for me, when I was a kid, I follow my dad in the woods. It's this immersive game where my dad shows me the the structure and the rules and he says, "This is how we do it." and you're just kind of following in my case at least following him and then you start to go out and on your own and you start to explore the myriad of things you can do in hunting and then you start to find your own way

38:55right you find your own value system and if you're lucky it helps structure your life in a better way you know and so then you get I to the point where I can say for sure that I know I've I've sused it all out I understand exactly what hunting does for my life and then I can then understand there's a structure for why this matters for society and there's a structure for how we pay for this and there's clear evidence that it has done good for wildlife in this on this continent let alone this country and it's it's all that is very clear when you look at the evidence I have I know you know this spent some time with vegans like I've had podcasted with vegans and yeah not just your regular run-of-the-mill vegan I'm talking activist vegans people that are probably in federal prison right Now, um I went to the Dingo Den one time. There's a

39:44group called Direct Action Everywhere, I believe, DXE. And I went to um Berkeley and had lunch with a couple of the activists. I won't say what their names, but I had lunch with them at a vegan restaurant and and just asked like what's it like? Where are you from? Who are you? How'd you get here? Right? Cuz it one guy was like from a farm in Kansas. Those are good podcasts, by the way. tell people how to get those just so the hunting collective is a podcast that I don't do it anymore but I did it for me eater you can go to meaters's website what what episodes are those with the those vegan guides because I really enjoy them there's a bunch of them I'd have to look um if you look for uh direct action everywhere I did one um I have a good friend who I'm hoping to start a podcast with at some point soon his name is Dr. Robert C. Jones. He's a animal ethicist

40:31and he's a professor in California. He used to be at Chico State. I think now he's at a different college, but he teach he's a animal rights guy and a vegan. Good friend. I've been talking to him about how do we do a show together and just take these issues on together because him and I have the best conversations. So, if you look for the best example of this is Dr. Robert C. Jones. So, if you look for that podcast and look for Dr. Robert, you'll you'll get some good discord and it's healthy. He takes he's a philosopher. So he takes me on some of these philosophical journeys and tries to convince me that animal rights has some validity which I often say I I've always said to him and said listen imagine if if we animal rights and veganism and animal and hunting you you're a vegan I'm a I'm a hunter. We start back to back. We start at the

41:18exact same place and over time we walk away from each other. After a while, we forget where we started and all we are is we're separated. We're yelling back at each other. And that's what veganism and hunting is to me because I think vegans and hunters start from the same place. Vegans and hunters, ethical hunters are way closer than people that just eat meat. Yeah. And people that have no thought whatsoever about I feel more connection to to somebody that actively looks at how they consume. Yes. And someone that actively avoids, right? someone who just is willfully ignorant. Yeah. So I always tell him I'm like we're and this is many many many issues in our country right now. We talk past each other. We don't have to because we start with the same idea. We just get to a different place and by the time we're so separated in this this walk away from

42:05each other, we're just yelling back at each other with with no context of how we started. There's also this lack of appreciation for survival itself because we've gotten to this point where it's so easy to consume food. Consuming food is like we're we're like one of the rare moments in history where poor people are fat. Yeah. It's so strange. Cell phones. But it's just food. Just just sheer calories. It's not nutrientdense calories, but it's just sheer calories. and and poor people are often fat right now which is in history if you looked at the moment like if you look at all the moments of human history the during a time where poor people are fat this is the only one like literally the only one if you go back to the Civil War days every man weighed 120 pounds you know like people were tiny you know you go back to like Napoleon

43:02they made fun of Napoleon because he was short but he wasn't short Napoleon was tall for the for the time, but he was like 5'6 cuz everybody was tiny cuz no one had food. He was way taller than Homo, was it? Homo Florianis. Yes. Well, that's a weird one. That's the hobbit person that lived in the island of Flores. That was a That was a different totally different branch of a homo. We're going way away from this grizzly story. But have you seen that new skull that they found? Uh I believe they found it in China. It's called the dragon man. See if you can find that dragon. Yeah, it's an enormous skull with a humansized head and it's a completely new branch of the human species, you know, like there's u was it denovian, dino, how do you say it? How do you say denov? Well, obviously there's neandertol, there's homo sapien, denisovven,

43:51I forget which one it is. The one they found in Russia. I've listened to that sapens audio book like 20 times, but it escapes me what you're It's really good. It's in my brain somewhere. It's good to go back to over and over again. But um this dragon man is this new skull that they found. It's a massive skull. They Now this skull was uh put in a well. It was wrapped and put in a well. Uh so okay, here it is. The dragon man is a specimen represented a human group that lived in East Asia at least 146,000 years ago. It was found at Harbin, Northeast China in 1933, but only came to attention of scientists more recently. The analysis of the skull has been published in the journal um the innovation. One of the UK's leading experts in human evolution. Professor Chris Stringer from London's Natural History Museum was a member of the

44:42research team. And this uh this creature was a completely new animal. And so in terms of fossils in the last million years, this is one of the most important yet discovered. What you have here is a separate branch of humanity that's not on its way to becoming homo sapiens, but represents a long separate lineage which evolved in the region for several hundred thousand years and eventually went extinct. But if you see what these things look like, go back up to that skull again. That's wild. Look at the [ __ ] brow bone, man. I bet that dude could take a punch. He probably wasn't chewing on anything for his jaw. He probably got hit by a lot of [ __ ] But that's what when you listen to sapiens and you and you understand that book, they're saying like the branches of the tree, we were just one branch of the tree. We happened to be kept keep

45:26growing while others died. Homo Florians and this dragon man cuz we were the ones where the aliens came in. That's right. [ __ ] with our built the pyramids. Yeah. But if you look at uh the the bones of I think the dragon man is on where is it? Um dragon man is on the far left. So that's the look at the [ __ ] eyebrow bones. The brows, man. The brow bones are wild. crown and the skull is kind of elongated. I mean, imagine running into one of those dudes in the woods. You be like, "Hey, buddy." I want I one time I went to the Smithsonian. What's up, J? It says ancient human on the far left may evolved into the dragon man on the far right. Oh, the far right is Oh. Oh, I see. So Oh, the far right is even bigger. Much bigger. But the ancient So ancient human on the far left has a massive brown bone as well, but it's not as big as the one on

46:10the far right. You're right. Yeah. Skull has go back to that other picture. Size is is increased. Yeah. Oh, no. No, it's the same picture. I'm sorry. You just you just made it smaller. The one on the far right, that's the dragon man, right? Yeah. Look at that [ __ ] brow bone. That looks like that looks like an alien man. That looks like a dude I would recruit for the UFC. I like listen dude. You just got to learn some He's got a good ground game. You already got power. He's got a good ground game. You can take a shot. Harry Knuckles. Big game. But that is it's interesting. It's interesting to kind of think about how I think it's just a little bit misleading to say that we are tapping into that holistically in the modern sense of hunting. No, not really. I mean, we we aren't really. We are and we aren't. I mean, we're a little bit we're surviving.

46:53We're playing at it. Yeah. Right. We're laring. We're laring. But that's where the game goes. But if because if supermarkets do exist, and they do, you know, you can go to Whole Foods and buy a bundle of kale and a grass-fed steak. Delicious. Yeah. Yeah. that to me like we're so we're trying to recreate something that was once essential to human life. You couldn't separate hunting and life for millions of years but during the pandemic it occurred to a lot of people that this may still be essential. Yes. And this was one of the things that really changed like uh during the pandemic let's Google this um the percentage of hunters increased during the pandemic and I think it increased by a large percent. So we we've seen it across the hunting space. We'll pull up some actual numbers, but it happened during turkey season and and in almost every state you saw an

47:43increase in hunting license sold. That's how we track that. Obviously, some states um you would saw 5% increase in hunting license sales. Um Okay. It says the Council to Advance Hunting and Shooting Sports, that's a lot more than I thought it was. Released the report this month. Is that from meteor? Yeah, it is. Okay. um found a 5% increase in hunting license sales between 2019 and 2020 among the 40 states it surveyed. Um includes a 5.4% increase in resident licenses and a 1.6% increase in non-resident licenses. This is what people need to understand. This is probably the first year in the last couple decades where hunting licenses increased. And that's the big since the 1980s. It's been declining rapidly every year. Now you want to know the big one? the increase in bow hunting. Yeah. Now, Google what is the increase in bow hunting? By the way, look at this.

48:37Somebody gave me that. Oh, where from? Uh, it's from Texas. I've I've got some friends that out of the ground. An actual um arrowhead from some Native American tribe that someone pulled out of the ground here. You can see like the napping. I mean, you just can picture somebody sitting in the dirt, chipping away at this, trying to feed their family with a real use for it, right? And that was a person who that was that was people who we were descended from because those were people who survived and didn't die. Yep. And here and here we are, you know, years later trying to struggle with why we should. I was looking for that, but this article came up first and this is seems like better information than I just told you for the last says more than four 545,000 hunters in Michigan and bought licenses through November 11th, nearly 10% more than the same port in 2019.

49:31um significantly the number of the number getting licenses for the first time in the in at least 5 years if ever has jumped 80%. 80% is crazy. Yeah. Now this is again something that had been declining and up until Yes. And and and people had been trying to figure out how to make people more interested in podcasting. And I think there's a a a twofold answer to that question. Hunting. Hunting. Well, well, how to get people interested. What I say license podcasting. Oh, podcasting is a big one. I think that's a big one. I think uh that's probably the most significant whether it's Meat Eater, yours, mine, um Dudley's, there's a there's a lot of great Rey's C. There's a lot of great podcasts out there that that cover hunting that are really interesting. Um, and then the pandemic, the pandemic opened a lot of people's eyes to the the

50:25possibility that like my friend Duncan sent me a picture of his grocery store and the meat shelf was completely bare. Completely bare. He's like, "Dude, there's no meat." And and I'm like, "Whoa." You know, this is And he was in North Carolina at the time. And you've talked about this before. It just took away the thin veneer of safety. Yes. That that we are sometime like we are somehow beholden to the people that put the meat on the shelves. proxy executioner that whacks the cow on the head and the industry that goes and creates that cellophane wrapped beautiful piece of meat for you to and these people that don't have this understanding of our place in the in the actual ecosystem these beta or type of individuals that don't on bet. Yeah. This these humans that are protected Yeah. in this way that they have this undue confidence in the system.

51:16Yeah. and and the system itself is made up of individuals, right? So, and then and when you have a toilet paper shortage or a meat shortage, it's I don't think it's that a certain subset of individuals are buying it all. I think that's it's that every single person buys more than they need, right? And then you then you have a shortage. You have a shortage. The toilet paper thing is it takes up so much space. Yeah. If you have a thousand people and they need to buy these giant [ __ ] things of Charmin, like there's a lot of [ __ ] space that those big toilet paper packages take up. Yeah. And you only have like one aisle that's toilet paper. That [ __ ] gets filled up really quick. Quickly. Yeah. Yeah. But I that's that's where I and a lot of people I know came to you. It came to me like what do I do? Right.

51:58I need some meat. Can I borrow some meat? Sure. Did friends ask to borrow guns? Yes. Yes. That was weird, right? or like where do I buy guns or what do I do or what's the process? Scared and uneducated is how I would and I don't want to call my friends and family uneducated, but I think they would probably admit that when [ __ ] when [ __ ] hits the fan and you're c the person you're calling is probably the lifestyle you at least want to partially emulate next time this [ __ ] goes down. Did you guys have lines in Montana outside the gun stores? Not that I can remember. Everybody already had guns. Yeah, Montana we got guns. California, there were lines like food lines like like Russian in the in the the middle collapse of the ammo in this bowl. I'm not bullshitting. It was wild. Me and a buddy of mine were driving uh and

52:45it was in, you know, regular Southern California, like near my house. We were driving and I I pull over. I go, "Stop. Stop. Look at this. Look at this." That's a line where people are scared and they need to buy guns for the first time. And what's a gun? I carry a gun quite often. I carry a gun definitely in the woods in Grizzly country, which may bring us back to the Grizz story. I obviously didn't get mauled cuz I'm here, but I carry a gun and I understand the feeling. I get it. I understand the safety. I understand the feeling of not even not even the internal feeling of like I'm taken care of. If somebody comes at me, I at least have a tool to use. I also understand like the externality of like you're not afraid of people anymore, right? You're not afraid of somebody rushing you, you know that you have the capability to defend yourself, right?

53:33And that feeling once you have it, once you understand it, and then you take it a couple steps further to getting meat for your table and somebody comes up to you and be like, I don't think you should have that gun or I think that gun is unsafe. You're like, look, I promise you if you could climb in my head, you would understand how beneficial these firearms are to my life and how kind of core they are to who I am. Not only that, like if you were in a situation where you needed one and you didn't have one, you would be so god damn terrified versus if you were in a situation where you needed one, you had one, you had training in one, you would be protected. And I've never run a gun counter, but I bet if you had somebody in here that did, they would say there's a a large percentage of people that come in after some life-changing event where they were

54:18robbed or there some kind of violence or crime was committed on them and then they decide to go get that thing that'll give them that extra safety when some people don't get a chance to go into the gun counter because they're dead, right? And you're seeing and and this is not in support of Kyle Writtenhouse, right? But you're seeing in the trial, if you paid attention to this trial, the guy who's prosecuting him doesn't know jack [ __ ] about guns. [ __ ] dummy. Finger on the trigger, pointing it at the jury. You got to pull that up, Jamie. The picture of him. Goddamn crazy that this guy's doing this, that he's in the middle of a trial about the use of firearms, deadly use of firearms, and he's got his finger Why do you have your finger on the trigger? What are you doing? Like why would you you don't ever do that. This is rule

55:07number one. You don't point a gun at people unless you're trying to shoot them and you certainly don't put your finger on the trigger. This guy doesn't realize that by doing this he has validated everything that the pro-second amendment people have said about these anti-gun people that they are ignorant fools who don't understand what the [ __ ] they're talking about. This guy with his finger on the trigger pointing this gun at the jury probably put the [ __ ] cherry on the Sunday. He did. He broke like pretty much the entire NRA gun safety fourpoint rules. [ __ ] the NRA for not [ __ ] the NRA. I mean I mean forget about the NRA. Common sense. Everybody that everybody that ever trains anybody in gun safety tells you not to do that. Whether it's the military, someone who trains you, you know, cuz you want to get a

55:52concealed carry permit or whatever. That's you don't know. You don't know because the the action is closed whether he's got a round in the chamber. [ __ ] magazine. He doesn't [ __ ] know. Do you think he knows? If he puts his finger on the trigger like that, I guarantee that guy's probably doesn't know jack [ __ ] about guns. No. And that's and that I think that goes back to like me podcasting with vegans in the dingo den. It's like we're people that feel like I feel that guns are so useful in my life aren't that different from that [ __ ] guy. Yeah. That guy just doesn't know. All he would have to do is like you've done in your life with Taran Tactical and and the stuff that you've done is take a little bit of time to learn and understand and ask questions. That's [ __ ] it, right?

56:31Go and say, you know, I don't really understand these things. I think they might be a little scary. I've heard some [ __ ] and and my first reaction is to be a little bit afraid of them or to denounce them or see them as tools of violence and not not tools of utility. Why don't I go across the table and try to learn a little bit more and see if I'm wrong? Well, the problem is that prosecutor is playing a game, right? He's trying to win. He's trying to put that kid in jail and he's playing a game in the the highest highest of high stakes. Yes. Yeah. He literally Yeah. The highest of high stakes like the end of your life or now you're free. And Matt Taibbe has an article. Matt Tibbe by the by is God. I love that guy on earth. Yeah. He has an article about kind of this trial and how it's being played on both sides of the coin. And then, oh, by the

57:19way, cor our corporate overlords, uh, the aristocrats are having record profit that no one's talking about. He has this whole article about how while we're focused on this one trial and kind of the the ideological polar opposite approaches, our corporate bettererss are making lots of money. He's a Snoop joint. That's a Oh, that's a Snoop joint. Oh, baby. A Snoop Jaw. You know what's interesting, too, is A lot of people that are um uh ideologically progressive and and very left are also honest and waking up to the fact that they had a very distorted idea of what happened in that case and uh you know heavily left-leaning people like uh Anna Kasparian who is uh you know in the Young Turks. She wrote a whole thing about how you know she had a perception of it. She wrote it on Twitter and you know some people attacked her. She's basically saying she was wrong and she

58:18made a correction which is brave. Yeah. In these this day and age, you know, and and she's right. And Glenn Greenwald has exposed a lot of this and there's many other people. There's many many many journalists who said, "Okay, I did a deep dive on this and I thought I understood what was going on and I'm incorrect." When you look at the people that attacked Written House, that written house, again, it's not a defense of written house. They attacked him. They went after him. Also, he showed up with a [ __ ] AR-15. Yeah. Which is crazy. Yes, he's a 17-year-old kid. He's kind of laring a little himself, right? I mean, he's showing up in a place where uh I guess his uh grandparents had a business and he showed up cuz there was rioters and looters. And these people are not these noble people. These people that he shot are not these noble people that

59:02everyone wants to pretend they are. If you look at the record of the people that he shot, first of all, one of them, pull this up, because they dismissed all his charges right before the trial, and this guy had like a fuckload of charges. All the charges of one of the guys he shot different. Yeah. Different stuff that unrelated to the trial. Find See if you can find that. Unrelated to the trial before before he took the witness stand. Uh, one of the guys he shot was I think he was a pedophile. I think I I don't want to step out of line, but I I really think that that was like one of the We'll figure this out. It doesn't matter if he was an astronaut. Like when they were coming after him with a gun and one of the guys hit him with a skateboard, tried to take the gun away from him and he shot the guy. Yeah. It's all on video and it's like

59:47why why the feeling to to paint a, you know, to to attach him to narrative, dude. I don't know. Get scared. Try some of that soup dog blunt. Yeah. He has his own brand of weed. That's how you know you made it in my world. I'm not going to inhale too much because I I'll go off the [ __ ] rails. But the reality of this is like we're What is that? Oh, that's Snoop's. Let me see. Snoop. What does it say? Premium nutrients. Is that what it says? Premium nutrients. Growing science. Hand roll with glass tips grown with Snoop's premium nutrients. Snoop has his own [ __ ] nutrients. He's got nutrients. Yeah. Maybe one day I'll I'm not wasting my time with Alpha Brain. He's going straight to the mother. He's like, I'm going to own the nutrients. But the point is that we we we separate ourselves into these ideological categories, these groups,

60:37left and right, and right and left. And I'm a weird one because I'm a part of both in a lot of ways, but but I'm more left than I am right. I'm I'm I'm very open-minded in most things. My parents were hippies and I grew up on welfare. Like I believe in social services. I believe that we have to have some sort of a safety net for folks when they're down and out and single moms and and people that are poor and and people that are escaping abuse and bad situations. And I think there's a place for that. I think it's important. And this idea that everyone needs to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. When people say that kind of [ __ ] I'm like, you don't know the hardship that some folks go through. It's not a fair game. Put a little empathy on the situation for a minute. There's it's not like there's no room for empathy. It has to

61:20end at some point because it turns into some of the crazy [ __ ] we've seen. But yes, you have to to at least start there and then bring common sense in when [ __ ] starts to get wonky. You need discipline. So I'm both. I'm a empathetic person who believes in discipline. I force my own discipline on myself, you know, and I think that that puts me in a lot of people's eyes in the right for some reason. And the proun thing, the I'm very pro- second amendment, but I'm very pro first amendment, too. And that used to be a left-wing thing and now that's not anymore. It's a left-wing thing if you agree with what I'm saying. You know, if you don't agree with what I'm saying, you want to silence me. This is the same thing as prison reform. There's so many people who are, you know, we need to be like, we need to have less people in

62:07prison. We need to like fix people and rehabilitate people. And then those same people like lock Kyle Writtenhouse in jail and throw away the key. He's a kid. He's 17. Like showing up at a [ __ ] riot with an AR-15 when you're 17 years old. That is not a wise move. Yeah. And you're I mean you live in the same world I do. I walk around this city, other cities where I live, Bose where I live. I've lived in in different places. Most people agree with you. Most people are are well-meaning. They want to live a safe and happy life. And they don't want to be beholden to one ideality or the other. They don't want to have to to march in line. And one of the things I learned mostly from your podcast is the the death of skepticism inside of these kind of tribal groups of left and right or it doesn't matter. It's it happens in

62:57in my world, the hunting world as well. Yes. And in the second amendment world, the death of skepticism is a problem. Like you should be skeptical of every politician. You should be skeptical of every institution. You should live a life like what's my religion? Skepticism. I you should be skeptical of yourself. Of yourself. Yes. Yes. And you should be able to see when and I like I said I always take it back to being able to go into the dingo den with the vegans and ask them who are you right? Where did you come from? How did you get to this place in your life? And how can I learn from you and teach you a little bit? And how can you teach me maybe too? Like you got to be open-minded there. Look, dude, I was on the verge when when I went hunting with Reanella. I had reached a point where I was like, I'm going to be one or the other. I'm going

63:42to be a vegetarian or I'm going to be a hunter. Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna figure this out. That's not in and the world isn't binary like that. You could in the situation where I went to the dingo den, there was a bunch of they're not kids. I mean, they're adults. They're younger. and that there was this celebration of uh federal indictments like they would be rushing up on stage with Jeff Bezos or breaking into some factory farm with a gag laws, breaking laws on purpose. And in that community, there was a celebration of a federal indictment and maybe even going to federal prison for your beliefs. And one of the things I thought street street cred and one of the things I thought is man that's a rough you have to really believe that everyone that you're like Jamie you me we're all murderers you'd be walking around as a vegan activist as an animal rights

64:38activist looking at everyone as if you live in a world of murderer of of people that have no feeling for for sentient life as people that don't understand kind of the society that they live in function in they don't understand kind of the mass of death that they cause and this proxy executioner world this is how they this what's in their minds but let me put it in their perspective let me play devil's advocate here for a moment imagine if you're them and that is what you believe that's what I'm saying but but you we're saying it is almost as it's as if it's ridiculous but if you're them and that is what you believe you are almost under an obligation to get arrested yeah what would you be willing to do, right? That's so that's how that ideology carries out. It carries out in this what I believe is an unhealthy way. Yeah. But it's not all unhealthy. It only it

65:29only gets that way when it gets to be extreme. Well, it's a perspective, right? And it's a perspective that, you know, we can all lean one way or another. We we really need to be aware of this. We all can lean left or right depending upon what feels good. And you get a lot of confirmation bias and you get a lot of community involved in this ideology that you adopt. if there's a supportive group of people that are also adopting that ideology, but human beings are so susceptible to cultlike thinking. It's so [ __ ] dangerous. I know. And and we all are. All of us are. We had this so um on my podcast, we were making fun of um this idea of what do we call ourselves? Are we the nation? Everybody has kind of every podcast. You don't have you don't have like the Roganites or anything like that. Like this kitschy marketing term. I can't even believe

66:19people are listening. So I am not willing to have any kind of hundreds of millions. I can't believe anyone listen. So you don't want to call them something cuz you're not even sure that they're there. When I do ads and they say my listeners, I always change it to the listeners of this podcast. I'm like I don't own anybody. Yeah. I don't want to own any. I mean it sounds ridiculous like I'm being silly, but that is literally how I think of when I read it. I'm like, that's gross. And so in my way of kind of making fun of this idea, I'm like, we're going to call ourselves the cult. Didn't Jared Leto uh start a religion and call it the cult? I don't know. I think he did. Yeah, we should look that up. Yeah. No, no, but it's he's not Let me be clear. It's not really a It's him having fun with the idea of him starting a religion. He's not He doesn't really

67:00started a cult. Yes. He seems like a fun guy. He's a big animal rights guy, is he? Oh, yeah. But that's okay. He seems like a fun guy. and he does these things where he um he has like a bunch of his fans and I think they go to an island or something and they put on do on all these activities and dance around and have a good time. I remember I've read something about it. Have you read anything about it? I have not read anything about heard it seems like totally friendly. He's just having fun and that's like the t cult has a bad connotation but what I was doing is like let's let's call ourselves this because why do we have to call ourselves anything? Might as well just let's take back the word cult and do something good with it. And so long story, this is a very long story, but I was on my show and again that that no longer is on the

67:45air, but I was on my show and we had a guy named Juan Carlos. This guy yada ry brain. Yeah, I got to get another. I'm just going straight whiskey now. Okay, I've become smart enough. Can you overdose? Jared Leto. There's Jared Leto. See, dude, I'm not bullshitting. Everybody's wearing 30 Seconds to Mars and Jared Leto have a cult on their island. Yes. Why cults always? Look at him. He's sitting. That's the only way to get it off. Why can't we do it on the mainland? No, no, no. You got to do it in a place where people feel like they're literally on an island so they're separate from the rest of the world. Look at him. He's walking around on this bridge. You could be You have enough power that that could easily be you. I am so not interested in that. I have to exact opposite of that. I wish I could hang out with those people and not have anybody be weird with me.

68:28Yeah. Like sometimes people be they're weird with me and I'm not ready for that. A lot like Jesus. He's having fun, man. Dude, he's a beautiful man. If he's having fun, he's on an island. Why? No one's getting hurt. Why have an island if you're not going to do [ __ ] like that? But here's the thing. I don't think he has an island. He's just on an island. It's not his own island. After Epstein, islands have really got a bad rap. It's in Croatia. Croatia, dude. Croatia. Look, I I think a lot of tough [ __ ] come out of Croatia. Talk about a country that short trip though. Tough [ __ ] people. Croatia. It's big in MMA. How far? Oh, yeah. Merco Crocop, one of the great all-time legends, is from Croatia. Uh Pat Militic, the Croatian sensation, he was a uh a champion in the early days of the UFC. Pat Militic is a

69:16beast and also founded Militic Fighting Systems, which is one of the top gyms in the early days of the UFC. They were like one of the first top professional gyms and they they produced killers. Matt Hughes, one of the all-time great welterweight champions, came out of the Big Hunter. Yeah, Big Hunter. Another big hunter. None of those people are at Jared Leto's. They all they've run it. They're behind the scenes. Tim Sylvia, the former UFC heavyweight champion, he's a big time bow hunter. Loves bow hunting. I remember seeing him at shows and whatnot. Well, you know, he lives in the motherland. He lives in Iowa, right? That's like whitetail heaven. Right now, it's white tail season. Yeah, that Dudley character. He's up there in a tree trying to play tricks on Let me ask Let me ask you this question. I'm going ask this question to everybody

69:54that's listening. What other thing is there another thing? Somebody tell me that where you sit in a tree all day, other than white tail hunting or hunting in general where you're in a tree, you sit I've done this many times. Or you sit you climb up in a tree. You have to be a murderer. Like you I mean that's what you would be doing. You'd be waiting to sneak sneak up on someone. Just waiting on somebody. Yeah. If you're a guy like uh Dudley, Dudley moved to Iowa just so that he could hunt de matters to me. It's so mindblowing the amount of time that he puts into Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You live in Bosezeman, but let's be clear about the difference here. Let's make sure that we're Let's be really clear. Let's Here's the thing. Whitetail deer are like a religion in the Midwest. It is not as simple as an animal. It is a part of the culture. People take school off on

70:46opening day. They let kids off school in some places where I grew up is like that. So then you have like the actual opening day itself of rifle season sounds like World War II. It is the wildest [ __ ] I've ever heard in my life. As soon as you start seeing the sun peek out, you start hearing boom boom boom boom boom boom boom. So you have that animal. It's an iconic animal. It's like if someone invented baseball today, people would be like, "Get the [ __ ] out of here. Get the [ __ ] out of here. This takes too long." White ball. It takes too long. I don't give a [ __ ] if a guy hits the ball. NFL much better. But because NFL's clearly exciting to anybody that watches, they're trying to get that ball across. Giant super athletes are smashing into them. People that you can't even imagine running into.

71:30I took my 5-year-old son to his first NFL game and and he didn't even say a word for like three cuz you're stunned. Yeah. Stunned. Silence. If you meet those guys, like quite a few of those guys have won a fighting in the UFC. Uh former NFL players. My buddy Brendan Shaw. Uh there's a lot of these like NFL players, big dudes, giant guys who make it to the UFC and when you meet them, you're like, "What in the [ __ ] are you?" You're like barely a person. Why are you so big? Like what is what is happening? You saw that guy like at Dunkin Donuts and he was just like, "Would you like uh the chocolate covered or the glaze?" You're like, "Dude, you ought to be you should be doing something different." I've told this story before unfortunately, but we were in Phoenix and we were waiting to get into this place and there was a guy in front of us

72:11that was like all these other people in here and this guy was like up here above the clouds and he was giant. He was at least 300 plusb [ __ ] huge cornfed white dude from like the middle of the country where you know this like leftover Viking DNA from when they showed up in the [ __ ] thousand years ago or whenever they came here. Dudes are so big. They're so big. They're big. They got to be playing football, these guys. Well, you know, there's that's a weird thing about the UFC is that there's a weight limit. Well, you got to be. I wrestled in high school. No, no, but at heavyweight. Oh, at heavyweight, you can't beat them. 265 is the biggest you can beat, right? Yeah. There's guys that are too big. That's breakthrough. There's a guy named Tom Ericson who was one of the best heavyweights in his era. He was a really unusual guy. They called

73:04him the big cat because he was 300 lb. I mean, a natural 300 lb. A big giant wrestler who knocked people dead. He was like, but he was at a time, he came along at a time where there wasn't the kind of coverage of the UFC that there is today. Not even close. He came around and he fought he fought all over the place. He fought a lot in uh Japan and I don't know how invested in he was eventually because it was hard. There wasn't a lot of reward back then. Yeah. Like it was very difficult to make. Like now fighters can be rich. They can make Conor McGregor is extremely wealthy. Like Camaro Usman makes I'm sure I don't know what he get makes but I'm sure he makes a shitload of money. The top people that draw in the law style bender they make a lot of money. But back then they didn't. And you had to be a champion to make any of it. And Tom

73:52Ericson, he never broke through in like neither pride and I think he was too big for the UFC once they put the weight classes in because I think Tom but you let me show you what what this dude look like. Tom Ericson photos of him, bro. In his big guy, the fact that his name is the big cat. Well, it's because he moved like a [ __ ] cat, dude. I'm telling you, this guy was gigantic. Gigantic. a awesome wrestler but moved like a cat and knocked people dead. I mean, he was just a giant human. He looked like his head was made to be punched. If there's like a Wikipedia on him, pride. Oh, there he is. Oh, video game. Oh, this is a video game. That's so weird. There's a lot of good fight anyway. There's a lot of good fight. Find one where he wins, though. Don't be mean. Um, he was Okay, find um Tom Ericson versus Kevin Randleman. Rest in peace.

74:47See if you can find that one. Matt, I don't know who Matt Skelton is, but yeah, put this on. So, this guy and this is probably many years after like he was right. I I don't even know if he was in his prime back then. I guess his prime was like during this time or maybe slightly slightly before that. It's hard for a lot of these guys, dude, because this sport is so hard on the body. How fast that you don't get a lot of time. He was such a good wrestler, too. He would just grab guys and manhandle them. Like, look at him. He's just gonna manhandle this dude. This is not a small guy that he's Oh my god. Look at the way he just threw that guy to the ground. Animal. When you get a grip, when some [ __ ] wrestler like this, like this kind of highle wrestler gets a grip on you, it's terrifying cuz you realize like, well, he's stronger than

75:32now. I'm [ __ ] And now he's got this dude mounted. He's full mount and it looks like he's going uh forearm to neck. He's tapping him. He's just going to choke him his life out. Oh, he's going behind his head. Okay. He's just smothering him. Let me ask Let me ask you a question. How much if he wins this? How much would you guess that he would make from this? I don't know because this was Pride and this was uh Pride was pretty wild back then. I don't know what they got paid. It was very controversial. Was it a lot? What you mean? It was Pride was a lot. Pride was run by uh people that were um He taps right there. Oh, he tapped him into like a he grabbed his with his with his actual fingers with his hand. Yeah. He grabbed his neck and smashed his throat. Look at that. There's the Oh, bro. I'm telling you, that guy was a

76:17straight gorilla and he [ __ ] a lot of people up. It's good to learn about this. Yeah, he was one of those guys. But I there's there's a few of these guys that are like in between eras of the of the sport. Like if you like if Tom Ericson came into his prime during like certain moments of the UFC, Yeah. I bet he would have been the heavyweight champion. It's like with fighters, it's like when do they come along? like when is the sport exciting enough to get them to fully commit? Like cuz if if they're not making much money, there's a lot of guys that they have to do other things. So they have like full-time jobs maybe. I'm sure injuries play a huge giant factor. So you can only compete at his level for a certain amount of years. So like when you see a guy like a top flight guy like did you see the fight the air Max Holloway fight this few days ago?

77:08One of the greatest featherweight fights of all time. It was insane how good it was. The only way you get a fight that's that good over five rounds, you have to have two men or two women that are insanely dedicated to what they're doing. Cuz it was a crazy war for five rounds. It's so hard for you to do that. It's so hard for you to get your body into the kind of condition where you can maintain a war for five rounds. I always think, you know, when I go to an NFL game or I go to UFC or I go somewhere, I think of I start to think of what it must be like for that person, what it must be like to run out on an NFL field or run out into the octagon and understand that you are the center of the attention, but you still had like it's all about performance. And in a way, it's the best kind of meritocracy because the lights are on you and you have a chance to

78:01earn, you know, by being more skillful than the other person, you have a chance to earn it. It's one of the bravest athletic pursuits for sure. I can't imagine it. I can't imagine it. In terms of like risking your physical health and playing this super complex game like I think I'm going to be able to take this guy down and smash him. He thinks he's going to be able to stand up and kick me in the face. Who's right? And some, you know, sometimes you are in the middle of a fight and you realize this is not working. Yeah. And you have to figure out a way to regroup and and restrategize and and and adjust. And some guys can and some guys can't. And you see it in the moment. You see these changes and these shifts. You see people rise. You see their emotions boil up inside of them. You see them, you know, like try to push through adversity and exhaustion and try to

78:50figure out a way to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. And when they do, they don't always. And because it's hard, it's hard to win when you're losing. But when guys win when they're losing, it's one of the most glorious things in all of sports. cuz where's that come from? I want I want to be too. People that love MMA are loving this for sure. But when you're talking about it, and this is going to be probably cheap on my part when you're talking about it, like there's an element in hunting when you're by yourself. It's [ __ ] like that, man. Yeah, there's something to it. I don't want cheap analogy. It's the thing is you're not getting you you can get eaten and killed. That's for sure. Like we'll go back to your grizzly grizzly story. That's a real thing. That's Did I tell you about the I didn't tell you yet. Uh sorry everybody. This

79:31is like the fourth time I've told this story. When I was in Utah, I saw a big mountain lion. Oh, like a big guy. A big one. Big time. Like big. Like a buck 70 plus. Bro, he was giant. My friend Colton stops the car. This is on the ranch where we've hunted together before. Yes. Um he stops the car and he's like, "What the [ __ ] There's a mountain line right there." He's like, "Mount line, mountain line." There's 30 yards from us, there's a giant cat under a tree. I I've never seen one. I've only seen like I've I've only seen one run across the street and they were small. Like I saw like a maybe a 70ish pound one in Monaceto outside of Santa Barbara and I saw one in Colorado that's was about the same size. I'd never seen one like this. I never s I've never saw a real one. This is a real mountain lion. And talk about how have you ever felt

80:24the intense like the real emotion of fear and helplessness? Dude, it's a wild feeling. And I'm first of all, be be real clear inside a truck. I'm being a [ __ ] right? And we're armed, okay? I've got a bow on me. But what you're doing is imagining like, yeah, you're connecting with the animal and imagining what it must be like. This is not to say my life was in danger. I don't want to overstate this. My I was completely safe, but I was in this position where I realized that I was sharing this land. I was sharing this space. I was walking around with a primordial killer. and looking at things like you have an idea what a mountain lion is based on seeing one at the zoo or seeing one in a video. You have this idea of what it feels like to be in the presence of one. But I was looking through my binos at this thing 30 yards

81:11away under a tree. So I am right on it right 30 through the windshield clear as day. It is it is wild. You're looking in these [ __ ] demon eyes and it has this huge paws dude. He was a big tom. Yeah, he had a pumpkin head, big ass. These are all the muscles for crushing bones and and tearing throats apart. That's what those that pumpkin shaped head is. It's all muscle tissue. This is a This is a meat processor on four legs. This is Lord, the feeling of being in front of that thing was like a jolt of fear went through my It's like you get a little snoop nutrients in you and then just I didn't have anything in me. Oh, me now? Yeah. Yeah, now. But it takes it back. I will tell I will tell you this and I I I uh went to Yellowstone a couple years ago. What it would have been 2020, so been last year. There's a guy there named Dr.

82:03Dan Staylor. He is the predator biologist, one of the predator biologists in Yellowstone. We went on he had collared a male mountain lion. I want to say three or four months prior to that. This is a big tom. There's I have video of it somewhere. This is a big what you're describing is a big mature Tom length body kind of sway in the belly muscle muscle. I mean just gate when he walks. They had video of him truck of him walking and just his collar on just he looked like Matt Hughes in his prime. And think about this he had killed over I believe a 90-day period and I want to say no 60-day period he had killed 17 what they call neonates which is fawns or calves in the in and elk or mu deer. I want to say most of them were elk. A couple of them were mu deer. And what was interesting about that is is they often say that, you know, predators like a mountain lion

82:58will they need about they maybe a neonate every couple of weeks to survive. You know, like what's the clip at which they're preying on? It's only every couple weeks to survive, but if they have the opportunity, they'll do it more often. And so what so when when he said he said 17 and 60 days, and again, I hope I don't have the numbers wrong. Apologize to Dr. today if I do. But suffice to say, the clip at which this mountain lion was killing neonates was much higher than it should have been. And so what you might think of immediately is this is an aggressive male lion. He's going around pleasure killing and he's just doing his thing, right? He's living his life. He's a more aggressive tom or or he's surplus what they would call surplus killing. But turns out what was happening was he was getting displaced by grizzly bears mostly and wolves

83:51on the on these kill sites. So what he would do is he would come to a kill site. He would kill, you know, pretty fresh at that time of the year. It was in the summer, so it was a pretty fresh elk calf or mu deer fawn. He would drag it up in some brush. We went to a kill site and found the elk calf and kind of looked around forever. It's like CSI Yellowstone. And so what he said is is when you're tracking via collar, you can see the movements of these at intervals. You can see the movements of these animals. What what this particular tom would do is he would kill an elk calf, stash it, and then go a mile away roughly sometimes or maybe a half a mile up above it and and watch out because he was getting displaced by grizzly bears. Wow. That often and displaced by other bears and and possibly wolves as well. And so you start to think of how impressive is

84:41is is this predator a mountain lion? But there's something out there that is that is dominant over that this this mature male mountain lion who is he is his he is all he is is a meat processor on four legs. That's all that he is. We look at this situation with predator and prey and us and them through a filter of the human being. So we look at it through the filter of living our lives being on the internet and communicating with each other and getting a map of what reality is. But we look at it through this lens. If you looked at it through like if it was just everyone had a number, everything had a number. If mountain lions had a number and deer had a number and wolves had a number, this is like a math problem. Yeah. That's being sorted out in real time. That's what it's like. It's like you have more mountain lion if you have more

85:45deer. If you have more deer, you have a lot of mountain lions and the mountain lions start killing the deer. Maybe they kill too many of the deer if you don't kill the mountain lions. So, if nothing kills the mountain lions, then you have less deer. Then the mountain lions start to kill people. That's what the [ __ ] is happening in Calabasas. A 5-year-old just got attacked by a mountain line the other day. The mother chased these mothers, bad [ __ ] Mothers, this happens all the time, right? A mother, if her [ __ ] animal is attacking a baby, if it's a mother, mothers go crazy. So, she attacks this [ __ ] mountain line. This this bad lady, she scares the mountain lion off her kid. Um, rescues her kid. They the cops come, shoot the mountain lion. Mountain lion's still hanging around.

86:23They shoot the mountain lion. And then two more mountain lions exactly the same size show up. They're starving. They've eaten all the deer. And there's no management of wildlife when it comes to predators. Yeah. Like if you in in California, they almost banned the bear, right? They were going to ban bear hunting. And people, why would you want to hunt a bear? Listen to me. You have to cuz if no one does, then they get out of control and they start there for they cannibalize each other. There there's diseases and starvation. like we have to play a part in the system and we have to trust these wildlife biologists that have done these assessments. Yeah, this is so this is where we get to a bunch of very important concepts that I I hope everyone can can start to understand from this show or wherever they can get the information. And this

87:08is where I go back to where when I'm a hunter and I see this game theory and I understand why I love it so much. I also then get to understand the structure in which it thrives and has has thrived since the turn of the century in 1900 roughly. You got there's a guy named Dr. Valarius Gist. He was a wildlife biologist, a legend. He was one of the authors of the North American model of wildlife conservation. I've talked to him. He recently passed away. A wonderful man. He we him and I talked a lot about this idea of how do you intervene? He was he was very staunchly anti-wolf in a way that was surprising to me as someone who who had spent his entire life around animals studying them and as a biologist understanding how they acted. Was he staunchly anti-wolf naturally or reintroduction of wolves? He was he was reintroduction um he

87:59called them predator pits. he had to to at least to his point and and again he's passed away so I don't want to get too far down the road and let him speak for himself but I I've interviewed him and talked to him about this idea of how predation works and he has seen he explained to me kind of how he'd seen wolves act and with surplus killing and what he calls a predator pit when when a a group of wolves a pack of wolves takes over an area they surplus kill and they they're not really worried about carrying capacity of the land they are killers that's what they do. He he met a lot of flack in his later life in the wildlife biology and kind of wildlife management communities because of that view which was seen as anti-wolf. One of the most profound moments of my kind of professional life is when I had a conversation with him and I pushed him

88:44on this a little bit and I said, "Look, there's a lot of people that think your theories on wolves are a bit outlandish that wolves are are a blight on the landscape and they should be controlled." And he brought it back a little bit and he said, you know, I am for intelligent intervention. And if people can really think about that term and what that term might mean, intelligent intervention means that we have the cognitive ability and the ability as a species to intervene in these wild places and intervene in these landscapes where we kind of belong and don't belong at the same time. But we can in intelligently intervene and and make sure that we can strike a balance. And in the case of wolves and in the case of bears, it comes down to carrying capacity of a landscape. How many how many elk can be on a landscape? How many

89:35bears can be on a landscape? How do they work together? How do you understand kind of the ecosystem as a whole? And recognizing the cruelty of what happens if you don't manage that. They attack each other. There is no easy way out. No, there is no easy way out. No, there's can the cannibalism aspect of bears can't be ignored because most people don't understand it. It one of the things that happens and Reell has talked about this before that uh on his podcast the mediator that there's a possibility that these bears are actively hunting cubs when they get out of hibernation. Yes, they are. And they're trying to get the SS back into heat, right? um by doing but there's that there's whether or not they're doing it because they're hungry and they think of them as meat or whether or not they're doing it to control the amount of males and control

90:23the population and control the the competition. Imagine there's a mixture, but you don't know. But you don't know. It's a big factor of it is overpopulation. Now, here's where it gets wonky. You ready for this? The most amount of bears in this [ __ ] country by capita is New Jersey. Black bears. The most black bears. Well, I think most bears period. If it's the most black bears. Yeah. I mean, yes. Yes. Bears as a species. Yes. But brown bears are less prevalent except in certain areas of Alaska, right? But when you look at the overall continental United States, bears are in every state in the lower 48. Yeah. And when you look at bears in New Jersey, it's extraordinarily dense. And you can't hunt them. You can't hunt them because they have a guy who is an ideologue. The guy who is their governor. Phil Murphy, I believe, is his name. Governor Phil. And here's

91:18ran on banning the bear. That was one of his things. He wanted to ban the bear hunt. It's not a scientifically wise thing. Yeah. Shout out to the sportsman's alliance, which is a group that in our space that that battles these kind of state-by-state legislations that are meant to end hunting practices in in different ways, whether there's trapping or whatever. Right. Right. Right. They're they're an important group to know about. Um, and they often run a foul of HSUS, Humane Society, the United States, and that they're often against each other, which is a strange dichotomy, but that's the way it is. And in in New Jersey, um, it's been a while since I've been immersed in this, but in New Jersey, they the first thing that Phil Murphy did was tried to ban black bear hunting on state lands, right? So, they had a black bear hunt. and and and how this

92:02happens and this happens with wolves and grizzly bears and everything there is with the endangered species act you you want to get to a threshold a healthy threshold the wildlife biologists will set a healthy threshold and if you take a few steps back the North American wildlife conservation one of the main things it was founded upon and this is goes back to the 1800s is the public trust doctrine this means that wildlife isn't owned by anyone back to Snoop Lion Wildlife isn't owned by anyone. It's held in trust by the states. All right? It's not owned by the land owner. It's not owned by the governor. It's not owned by any [ __ ] buddy. It's owned by all of us in trust. Right? This is an important thing to understand about our model of conservation. And this is an idea that led to the renaissance at the turn of the century

92:52where our country went from extrapating many of its wildlife species to saving and conserving them. So the public trust doct do doctrine bleeds right into our North American model of wildlife conservation which in and of itself says that we will we will enact wildlife laws and legislation based on science and wildlife biology. So that means we are going to we have state game agencies who are are m and we can get into this too are mostly funded by hunters and anglers through American system of conservation funding that you've talked about a lot on this show. Pitman Robertson is one of them. Dingle Johnson is another. Explain that to people that don't know what we're talking about. Oh, it's a lot. This Pman Robinson was interesting because one one of the things I learned from Minnella's podcast is that a large percentage of that money is actually

93:39coming from uh people who are into the shooting sport. Shooting sports. So here's So 19 most of it, right? Isn't it? Most of it. Most of it. I mean, it's hard to say year by year. I don't Gun nuts. If you all guns and all ammunition contribute to wildlife, that's fascinating. That means that gun nuts, the craziest [ __ ] people, paying for them bears. They're paying to keep all the animals alive. Those bears. So, let's Yeah, you take it back to 1936. America is kind of in the throws of the Great Depression. Um, Franklin D. Roseell is the present. They have the first, you maybe Google this, Jamie, the first North American wildlife conference at the urging of many conservationists of the time. Ding Darling is is a wildlife artist. Imagine your name is Ding Darling. [ __ ] he's awesome, dude. You can go to Ding Darling. Hilarious.

94:22Ding. You know, I don't think that was either you're a clown or you're a standup comic or you're a politician that no one trusts. This is a wildlife artist guy. Ding darling. Ding darling. That's only a name that could have happened in the 1930s and been cool. Nowadays, be like, "Ding, [ __ ] you." Like, if you were trans and your name was Ding Darling, people like, "Bro, come on. That's so listen, Ding. We're sorry to take a left." Ding. Ding. Ding. My name is Joe. It's one of the most boring names. Benjamin, this is nothing. and Joe, we're jealous. We got nothing. I wish that was Ding. I don't think that was Ding's real name. He probably was like Charles Darling or something like that, bro. But that it was his real name. JN Ding Dar. So what was his real name? J Norwood. Jay Norwood Darling. So he was a boring name.

95:04So if your parents name you and then you rename yourself. Is that okay? Can you hang with people like that? that's why you're Yeah. Can you hang with people that just I mean Snoop's real name? Uh he Yeah, it is. No, he's got a real name. name more than it's been not his name. He's been Snoop since like [ __ ] 1990. That's a long time. Is there like is there a threshold for how many years you call yourself a certain thing? Ding is in history. Ding darling. It's not Jay Norwood darling. We don't talk about I've been very fortunate to never have any other names. Very fortunate. I feel I feel very fortunate uh for never having the desire. But my friend Aubrey, he used to be named Chris. He changed his name to Aubrey. Yeah. Yeah, his name was Chris when I met him and he just went to Was that a middle name or just something that he went?

95:54He tripped his balls off and he just like rethought his life and said, "I want to be a different person." And one of the best ways here's a I think he was naming himself after his grandmother or his grandfather, which is fine. I'm not I'm sorry, Aubrey. I don't remember. But we're sorry to ding and ding, but I've only I only known him as Chris for a couple years and Aubrey is like eight years. Eight years. So, exception. Shout out to Chris Aubrey. But it's like if my, you know, some my my mom named me Julius, I'd be like, "God damn it, mom. Maybe I'm Joe." Yeah. I can't do jewels. In terms of name changes, some of the name changes are got to be corrective. Like, ah, I'm not liking this. Others have to be kind of declarative. Like, I'm this guy now. Yeah. I'm I'm King Rogan. Okay, there he is. What is it? He was friends with Disney.

96:41He was friends with Disney. Smoking a pipe. Got that bow tie. Ding. Darling. Jay. But what was ding back then? Because gay was awesome back then. They're like, you know, like we'll have a gay old time. Remember the Snoop? It's like or the um rather Flintstones like back then like gay was festive. Yes. And then somewhere along the line it shifted to homosexual. Yeah. Well, right. Like gay was like this like the best conservation history lesson anybody has ever received. D was important fellow. You can go to a wildlife refuge named after maybe back then Ding had a different meaning, you know, like you could be Dick Nixon. Did it say Jamie what Ding? How he got his nickname? Yeah, he was uh the editor of his college yearbook and started signing his work with the contraction D apostrophe and it stuck. D apostrophe. Darling. Ah, he was he was making a

97:36short short for darling. Taking lazy. How lazy. Can't write all the other letters. He did a lot. I'm going to get to this conservation factor. We're going to get to the grizzly story, too. Oh, yeah. That'll be the very end. Like the flourish of the podcast. We know what we're doing, folks. Yeah. We've been doing this for years. You and I have been doing this for years. Ripping this [ __ ] for years. We've been This is our third. This is our third. How many hours are we in right now? That's the dangerous part. It's only Yeah. Let's not Let's not talk. We still have two or three more to go. So, Ding Darling, he's out there dinging it up. And in 1936, a bunch of folks like Ding and and conservationists of the time were challenging and pushing Franklin D. Roosevelt to kind of we they'd already had the renaissance of understanding

98:28what conservation needed to happen in our country. Why you looking like that? You're looking at me as I'm taking giant hits. You're just looking going Snoop Dog weed and going mhm. Continue, sir. I'm so I'm learning. I am learning. So anything anyway 1936 we've already gone through a bunch of the the legislation Lacy Act a lot of the things that would lay the foundation for this idea that we needed to conserve wildlife in this country. In 1936 there was this first wildlife conservation gathering. 2,000 people come any I've read reports anywhere between 1,000 2,000 people come to Washington DC. And at this point conservation was an idea that was kind of shared across party lines. I remember reading that like garden clubs and and and other bird watchers, all these people came to the table for conservation. It wasn't like bunch of

99:18hunters and that was it. It was it was people that cared about wildlife and they saw over the last, you know, decades how we had degraded and extrapated many of the wildlife populations that were important to this nation. Malor, duck, uh, elk, deer, anything, everything you see a lot of turkeys, all of it. 1936 they have this wildlife conference and what comes of it is a lot of things but the first one of the things that comes from it is this idea of the wildlife restoration act which is which is termed Pitman Robertson there was two senators I hope I get this right key Pitman and Abselum Robertson one imagine your name's Abselum go to that make sure I got that right it's like Abselum or Abselum some Abselum He's always hanging out in the back. He should have been a comic. He's always hanging out in the back. Great timing. He's hanging out in the back drawing

100:11stamps. Duck stamps. [ __ ] weird. I like to collect coins. There. There it is. That's him. Look at him. He looks like Abselum Willis Roberts. He was from Virginia. And Keith Pit Keith Pitman, I believe, was from Nevada. That looks like the type of guy who would slap you if you told him if you were your son and you told him you were gay, he would slap. He smack the [ __ ] out of you. He would slap you right in the mouth. Look at him. God damn it. Not my boy. Look at his early Look at his early picture there on the left. Wow. That is people people were were not even people back then. That's a st that they were like a trained monkey. You're not friends with that guy. Like you know of that guy. Yeah. He shows up. He's a state senator. So anyway, those are the two guys they they introduce the bill and so in sense Pitman Robertson.

100:55So Pitman Robertson is a thing that basically took at the time. This was a very popular uh thing at the time. It was it was called uh user I'm too much snoop line. It was uh public pay user pays public benefits model. So like I'm using a road I pay for it. The public benefits and this is this is around the time where we really had to understand how to pay for all this conservation that we wanted to do. We have national parks now. Yellowstone's already a thing. The National Forest Service is already a thing. um under Gford Pincho and and Teddy Roosevelt has already done a ton to forward conservation in this country. So now it's 1936, all these people get together and one of the things they wanted to achieve is how do we pay for this [ __ ] because we got to pay for it. And they decided uh and there was I think five or six things that they

101:44wanted to achieve. One of those things was to pay for it. and they decided that uh we're going to create this bill and take a current excise tax on the sale of ammunition and firearms 11% excise tax on sale of it. It it was already there and they're going to they're going to take that and they're going to put it into a bucket to pay for many of the conservation programs that we have in the United States at the time. That legislation was put forward by those two cool ass [ __ ] that we talked about. And those folks that it I think it got to Roosevelt's desk in nine days or something like that. It was so popular like boom done. Let's pass this [ __ ] unlike today. It would nothing would ever be done that quickly. But there was such a gathering around this that it went to Roosevelt's desk in nine days. He signs it. It becomes law. The

102:33Wildlife Restoration Act. That means that the manufacturer So today the manufacturer of goods and services. So you're talking about Reanella. Yes. what he was talking about about um like tactical shooters and people that just go to the go to the range and shoot a bunch of ammo. The manufacturer of of those goods pays that excise tax. For people who have lost our train of thought, this is where like the percentage of the pitman Robertson that goes 11% for ammo and yep. How much of it is from hunters and how much of it is from shooters there? I don't I've never read any real clear statistics on that cuz it would be hard to say. You would have to go you would have to go to the you have to go to the actual place where they're buying it and it's it's the tax on the manufacture conservative to say like 70 it you could say for sure oh Jamie's got something Jamie got it

103:23Jamie's the [ __ ] one source hunters spending around 10 billion a year on everything they need for their hunting trips. A different source found that hunters spend between 2.8 and 5.2 billion a year on taxable merchandise. This generates 177 and 324 million a year in PR money between Piv and Robertson money. Just remember that cuz if anybody that thinks that that kind of money is coming from any other source is delusional. Well, we can get to that too cuz that's a huge please do because that's a huge part of it. If people think that that kind of money is coming from people that are just philanthropy, it's not. Right. It's not and not in this way. This is one of the more not for wildlife. Yeah. This is one of the more beautiful kind of This is the thing that I discovered after I was always in love with hunting. I'm like, "Oh, look.

104:05There's a structure that is really nice, too, that I really admire." And it's a government structure and I hate government and I hate it structure. But this one I like, man, and I'm taking part in it. And so Pitman Robertson is it started out as at the time because there wasn't a lot of archery hunting at the time, if any. Very, very few. There wasn't 1936. Take a hit of this. Maybe it'll refresh your memory. You only have you very few moments in life where you can get high on Snoop weed and then talk about like legitimately from this motherland. This is kind of it to This is kind of like the Snoop Weed and then taking a test on history. No, this is perfect. You're doing an amazing job. Thank you. Um, it it seems to be helping 100%. The It's It's interacting somehow with the Alpha Brain. Yeah. And the the whiskey, all of it together. Yeah.

104:51And the fact that we're in Texas, the free place, the fishbowl. We just keep this. You talk freely here. We keep this going for hours. But but explain. Keep going. 11% on guns and ammunition. This is an existing excise tax. Right. So they decided that this was the sort of a compromise and also like a good faith effort to try to preserve all the things that were missing during the the whole market hunting problem. Yeah. And this is and there's so much more that goes into this before this moment. But since we're talking about PR, we would then need to say that this 11% already existing excise tax was funneled into a fund. Uh it's called the wildlife restoration fund. I'm not sure if it was called that back then, but that's what it's called now. over time over the next you know 70 years roughly we would go on to then add archery products and then and an ancillary

105:41archery equipment to this it's a 10% tax on that in the 70s we would then um do have a a similar addition called Dingle Johnson that would add that similar excise tax to fishing equipment and so now you have this kind of bucket of money that is that is earmarked and goes towards that from the purchasers it's kind Amazing. It's driven by the the hunting and fishing economy and shooting economy. But let's let's let's compare it to anything else in society. User pays public benefits. But imagine if there was a thing like if you bought an iPhone and 10% of it went to social justice. And imagine if but you know what I'm saying. I know. But imagine if this is and the duck stamps this way too. And we talk about that. But the duck stamp and and this tax if you if they if they were to come to the hunting uh community, the fishing community and say we want to

106:29raise this excise tax to 12.5%. I would guarantee they would say yes. They go hand up. How about 13? How about 13? Because they're fine because they know recreational activities. It's it's a part of lifestyle. And if you have to pay a little more, but you know that that money is going to a good cause and that everybody feels good about the transaction, all good. All good. And so this is a constituency. Yeah. that not only happily pays this tax but would support whatever we need to do for that tax to pay for the thing that we love. It's it's kind of a perfect government. This is my thought. It is. And it's not that known. And I think if we can implement that same strategy for everything, for law enforcement, for education, for everything, for everything, it's a [ __ ] But look at it that way. Look at the amount of money that's been generated by

107:22people who love wildlife and live off the land, whether it's 100% or even 5%. If you have 5% venison in your diet, you know, yeah, it's it's there is so there's a bunch of more beautiful things that are built into it that that kind of buttress what you're saying. And one of them is um I love the word buttress. It's like it's got you can use it. It's got whenever you can use it. I'm like respect. Oh, I'm going to buttress that [ __ ] baby. I've never said buttress ever. Really? You've never said butt. I don't think I have. We should make a t-shirt. I mean, it's just by accident. Somebody have a problem with somebody out there listening will make. You [ __ ] drank uh cat ladies. You'll make a buttress t-shirt. Goddamn it. Yeah, but it's not like I'm uh like I said, I've never said it. What I mean by that is like it's not like I'm above it.

108:10Like it just [ __ ] it never it never came up to the people. I'm not saying I'm above it. I'm not I'm not being elitist here. I'm just saying that's why I just never said that word. That's why the term buttress is now something. I mean, I might have, but I might have been like 14. Experimenting with new words. Jamie, where you at on buttress? Have you ever said buttress? Jaime's never said buttress. Jamie, I don't think you've said it. No, it's too close to waitress, but no. Jamie with the one line. Yeah, that Yes, Jamie. That's too good. Now, back is a good word. Back to buttress. back to I can't I'm never going to be able to be serious about this with you over there. It's fine. Just come up with another, you know, to to connect the two waitress butts. Butress um so what's happening is we're now so we're paying they people in the modern sense are

109:00calling it the American conservation system of conservation funding and there's more than just Pitman Robertson which is wildlife restoration fund. So what happens is we take 11% excise tax. This is again paid for by the manufacturers. It does not show up on a receipt. You do not see it when you purchase a product. You do not really, unless you're listening to this or have read about it or been introduced to it, know about it. It's not something that when you look at your receipt, oh look, 11.5% I just paid that and that's going to go here. You don't really know about it. and and is which I think is one of the great failings of the [ __ ] place where I the community that I well it's the problem is that there's the amount of people that are involved in that world in the hunting world in the in the general it's it's too easy to

109:44get food. So most people think it's frivolous or it's uh it's sociopathic or it's evil or you know they they have this distorted perception what it means to want to be engaged in that world that you're doing this like almost as an excuse to kill things. You're you're not correct. Yeah. It's a danger it's a slippery slope in that way. But you are correct sometimes. That's the problem because all it's not like hunters are all pure hum there's not a [ __ ] single group of humans that are 100% pure I always say like do campers litter that like yes that's a good way to say it all campers aren't shitty that's a great cigarette smokers throw their [ __ ] cigarettes out the window that means that doesn't mean all people that camp are [ __ ] right doesn't mean that all people that throw cigarettes out the window of their

110:33[ __ ] cars are arsonists but a lot of them are a A lot of them are, man. That happens all the time in California, for sure. Dude, during fire season, I've been evacuated three times. Okay. One of the reasons why I abandoned California, I was I was tired of being evacuated from my home with fire. There was a moment there was a there was a moment um during the last one where it was uh I came home from the comedy store. There was a fire that was like a mile and a half plus from our house. And I came home from the comedy store and uh me and my wife were like, "We got to get the [ __ ] out of here." I think it was her idea first. She was like, "I think we should just leave now." Like, "Why wait?" I go, "You're right. Why wait? Like everything that matters is right here, right? You, me, let's go." The kids, our our dog, let's get him in

111:26a car and let's just go. And I knew that like I'm like we can escape like danger in this one moment if we act now. But if we get stupid and and I don't want to say stupid because people made bad decisions based on the fact they never had to encounter a wildfire before. So I stupid is a wrong because I remember the first time I saw a fire a real wildfire in my neighborhood was like I moved to my neighborhood in 96 and the first time a real fire came around was like 97 or 98. I was like whoa I go this is real like this can overcome an area and uh you feel powerless but you also feel like wow it's amazing IT'S AMAZING. SOMEBODY on a buttress fired. So many disenfranchised, angry people, right? And so many lighters. I mean, it's kind of shocking. Why would you live where it's dry? Confucious says, "Why would you live?" Joseph says, Joseph, Joseph says,

112:34"Get the [ __ ] out of the dry spots. Stop smoking cigarettes. It's getting too dangerous. You're counting on morons to not throw cigarettes out their windows." And there's a thing that people do when they smoke. Yeah. It's it's a cultural thing. They don't even realize they're doing it. They smoke their cigarette and they throw it on the ground. They stomp it out and they leave it there. They litter. It's the one time you're allowed to litter. It's a weird thing, man. It's weird. I've never been a smoker. Never never picked that up. But I It is weird. I have conscientious, intelligent friends that I love and respect. Comedians in particular. They smoke and they put their cigarette on the ground. Stop it. Men and women. I'm a big fan of Ron White. He smokes well like Chappelle. Chappelle smokes like a [ __ ] chimney on stage.

113:19You want to smoke one of Ron White's actual cigarettes? Yes. Would you feel weird? I wouldn't feel weird at all. I'm This is like a [ __ ] menagerie of drugs and alcohol. Yeah, those are It's an actual cigarette that he's made. Should light it first. That uh he uh he uh smokes though. He's around here. Is he around Austin? Yeah, he's around. Yeah, we're doing a show tonight. You want to come? [ __ ] yeah. Exactly. Is that real? I was springing it on you. Did you just say that? I got other plans. You [ __ ] guy. Multiple plans for this evening, ladies. Before we get to that, let me get to This thing fell apart on me. Um, I will. Before we get to that, let's get to the history of conservation in America. Joseph, ding darling. This [ __ ] might have Ding darling. A motive. Not really a motive. More like

114:10We have this deal. We make a deal. 11 11% guns and ammo. 10% Robertson archery. What year? Uh 1936. 36 I want to say. Maybe 3836. Amazing. It's a long time. This thing has lasts a long time. Yeah. Hundreds of millions of dollars going into this fund. This goes into a wildlife restoration fund which is managed I believe by the IRS and it's given the IRS takes the money. They say hey here US Fish and Wildlife Service here's this money. [ __ ] make it happen. And then the US Fish and Wildlife Service takes that money and they go to from state to state and they use a um uh equation that says I think it's land mass and number of licensed hunters and they take that equation and they give the money to the state. The beautiful thing that said, and this is often in politics, I think something that happens. They say, "Hey man, um if

115:01you don't use this money on what it's earmarked for, which is hunting and fishing, access and education, we're going to take away your license funds and put them into another I think they put them into the migratory bird act or migratory bird fund, but basically says if you don't use this money for what it's purposed for, you lose it. It goes somewhere else, [ __ ] Sorry about your luck." So now you have this thing where hunters, shooters, fishermen are paying into a system that many of them have no idea about. It's so ingrained in our system, in our minds as hunters and anglers that we know that the American system of conservation funding, which includes Pitman Robertson, but also includes license sales. Can't forget that you pay for a license. You pay for the privilege to go hunt wild game. All of this goes to fund state game agencies

115:51that are that are appointed by us that that are there for the public trust doctrine. We we don't own these animals. We all hold them in trust and we take that money and we say we're going to pay we're going to pay for a bunch of wildlife biologists to work for the state and those folks are going to be the ones for the most part to enact legislation to keep these animals around. And that's that's the a huge part of the North American model of wildlife conservation that we that is unique to this continent and that kicks [ __ ] ass. As a person, I agree. It's a it's a if you if you look at it as a system in comparison to a lot of the other systems that are combating whether or not it's like uh community violence or drug addiction or crime or if you look at problems and solutions. It's one of the great problems vs solutions in our country for sure.

116:43I don't know why I said VSS. Never said that before either. Butress but put that on a shirt. But it's like I didn't want to be pretentious, but I had to be. No, you're not. It's um it's one of the great systems. It really is. If we could have that same sort of ethic into other aspects of our life, I think we could do amazing things. If you think of the amount the amount of money that has been generated willingly and also like happily by hunters and fishermen and people in the shooting sports and knowing that it's all going to good, but we're it's sustainable. Like it's not too crazy. No. Oh, and and there's results. There's a there's a there's an ammo issue right now. Well, sure. There always is. It's cyclical. But that's like a pandemic thing, right? That did really happen. Pandemic. That's a whole another thing. But let me just say this. You pull up maybe Jamie

117:30pull up uh John Oliver did a thing on the duck stamp. It'd be cool for us to watch that. That was another person two days in a row that's quoted John Oliver as our source of history. John Oliver, if he's listening to this, is a [ __ ] bag. What? How dare you? Not a big fan. Oh, he's a good guy. He's a comic. Has he been in here? No, but I'd have him. His show sucks. Oh, how dare you. Do you like his show? Um, I've watched some funny elements. I apologize for that. Was a lowb blow. He's a comic and uh making fun of things and they have a very uh leftwing uh left to it. I don't like it cuz it's so leftwing, right? If you show up and I'm not defending him, but yet I am. if you show up and you're working on a show and um um I don't know how much say he has in how they sculpt those those monologues. You don't know. I don't know.

118:26I don't know. But I think some of it's funny even if I don't agree with it's funny. I'm not saying it's not funny. I've watched it for a long time and I was I I guess I should say the backstory is I was a big fan of it and then it started to turn to something. He's great in community. I've never seen him in that. He is. He's probably 100% telling I shouldn't call him names in No, no, he's funny. He's just very leftleaning and it just it's trying to normalize these ideas that aren't that trying to make these these left ideas and this happens quite often in in other mainstream media. It's trying to normalize these ideas that we should be talking through. Like this is how it is, guys. Right there. You're absolutely right. We should be talking through. You should be talking through. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm saying you

119:09could be. But in his defense, he's doing it for entertainment and humor. So it's like I give you a certain amount of license. The problem is not what he's doing. But at least the problem is not what he's doing. The problem is the way it makes people feel. Yeah. So you can either decide I don't like to watch him because he's very left-leaning so I'll watch something else. Or you can decide that's what I'm looking for. And then you watch him and he becomes as popular as he is. See, it's like we have this idea that everybody on television or everybody who has a podcast where everybody has a YouTube show has to share your ideas. That's it. But not you, Kristen Sager, Bill Maher, let me name John Stewart, people that challenge Kyle Kolinsky, Kyle Kol Kolinsky, people that challenge these narratives. All of them. But all of them Sam I mean Sam Harris

120:00intellectual dark web everybody. Weinstein, Heather Hying. These are people that are but skeptics skeptics challenging ideas that need to be challenged, not people that are promoting narratives in in kind of a disingenuous way. The label's the problem. The label's the problem. Whether you call the in intellectual dark web or you call yourself progressive or leftwing or right-wing, the the these ideologies, the these like labels that we put on ourselves, they they sort of are like they're like the lattice work of cults. like it sets it up and then the cult grows inside that little fence and it takes root and before you know it you got a cult. I have a matrix target. You know what a matrix target is? You know those archery targets? Yeah. I have one in my backyard that is like vines have decided to grow around it. It's like they are unaware that lethal darts are

120:50going [ __ ] 300 feet per second slamming into that phone. It's not a place to grow if you're for them. It's not enough disruption that they it stops them from growing cuz cuz it rains here in Texas and [ __ ] grows crazy. Nothing lights on fire and everything just [ __ ] grows. Yeah. I mean, I would I apologize to John Oliver, but I think the frustration for me is just a normal dude that watches a lot of stuff is that I want to really like him and and sometimes I can see through it. You got to let it go. See through the narrative stuff. So, apologies. Got to let it go. And he's got to let it go, too. That was unfortunate. Everybody's got to let it go. Everybody's got to realize we're we have more in common than we do indifference. We we we all want our families to be safe. We all want to have fun with our

121:34friends. We all want our children to grow up and have a great education. We all want to live in a world with no war and no pollution. We don't want to have a problem with environmental contaminants leaking into our water. We can all agree on those things. We're being separated by ideologies more than we are about what we agree on or disagree on. What we agree on is way more numerous. Most people who are good people or happy people want everybody to have a good life. Yeah. And but and that goes right back to public. You know, we're paying money so we can go do things. I I would apologize again to John Oliver. That was not I went way off. You stepped out of line. He stepped out of line. Sorry, John. Uh he's a [ __ ] comic. He's a comic. He's doing his thing. shouldn't have said that. You know, the thing is like he it's his point of view.

122:21Yeah, it's his point of view. So, and he may challenge me on hunting one day. That would be fun. But if you agree with the First Amendment, like you want him to have his point of view. You really do. And you want to have him his show and you want to be entertained by it. That's where the problem with social media comes in because there's a lot of people that don't think that way. There's a lot of people that don't think like whether it's John Oliver or whether it's Donald Trump or whether it's [ __ ] a lot of the right-wing people or a lot of leftwing people, there's an ideological battle and if you've got control of the switch and you're like, "Fuck that guy. He doesn't think you should have an a seven-month old abortion." Like there's weird, you know, there's weird like decisions people make, right? Like, "Fuck that guy. He he doesn't believe

123:04that this is more than that and that is you should use these pronouns. you should say this instead of that. You should let these people control this because they've never been in control. And you should let Marxists and Leninists try to run the country because we've been run by capitalists and it's obviously unfair and racist. And then you try to figure out your way through the mess. And let me uh let me offer a solution. Joe, you have one? Yeah. Wow. Ben Ben O'Brien, what's today's date? I'll wait. uh November 16th at 3:47 p.m. Central time. Yeah. Has figured it out. Let's uh take a moment of silence before I start. Now, everybody good? I'm stretching out. Okay, let's go. We have We'll start with Piv Robertson, which is what we're and we'll eventually get to the grizzly bear story to we get to that [ __ ] story. I feel really bad about I feel we should

124:03shut this thing off before the story. This is like the end of uh Sopranos. EXACTLY. Just be like that whole thing about John Oliver is the end. Sorry, John. What the [ __ ] did that guy just try to explain the end of the Sopranos recently? Got mad cuz someone kept asking him, I think. Bro, why would he answer any questions? No, I don't. Uh, so anyway, go back. This is so This is the most fun I've had in a long time. Me too. I um I'll say this. We have So we talk about the American System of Conservation Funding. You have Let's I think we've mostly covered Pitman Robertson. Yeah. So people understand that we're paying money and that that money is going towards the thing that we're taking part in. Yeah. User pays public benefits. Not you, like I said, there's a large part of our populace that shoots for fun. They go out, we call them, you

124:58know, tactical shooters or or range afficionadas, whatever. And they call people like you fuds, right? Fuds. Yeah, probably. Elmer Fud. Yeah, Elmer. Like Granilla would be a fud. A thud. That's probably true. I don't know. People call me whatever they want, but that Remy Warren's a fud. Is he? I would say so. I love him. If he's got a rifle, it's for hunting. He doesn't have time for anything else. That's true. Yeah. Maybe I don't know where the delineation of that is, but at some point Yeah. your hunter or your shooter. There are different communities. I've lived in both. Yes. Yes. Um hopefully they like me, I like them. I know. But it's Isn't that funny that this is what people need to understand? There's that much division inside people who believe in the Second Amendment. There's people that are like like just tactical people who have like

125:46bulletproof underwear on right now. And there's people and there's people who want to shoot a white-tailed deer for dinner. That's right. And there is Everybody's trying to convince each other that their way is the right way. And that's Right. Right. There's people that just want to protect their family from an armed invader. And there's people that want to start a militia. They [ __ ] They both They both have similar these people both exist. This is a divide. It's like it's not a real divide. We are fractal is what I'm trying to get at. It's not a real divide. We're all together. No, we should be all together in the second world. This is my feeling with everything with the left and the right. Like I think most of our decisions that are like really polarizing are based on ideologies rather than like shared goals, right?

126:31Like our shared important goals. And that's what you see when the pandemic hit a little bit in the beginning. You saw it after 911 there would you're a younger fellow but during how old are you now? 35. Yeah. See, you're a little baby. What are you, like 12 when 911 happened? How old were you? 13. I was in uh high school. I was in SAT prep class. What the [ __ ] is wrong with you, boy? Hey, don't degrade the educational system of America. Joe Rogan. So, when that happened, um, what was my point? Completely forgot my point. Let me get back to the history of conservation America. We had a whole culture. What was I just saying? I don't know. Jamie, he's off it too. He has no idea that's that's now when you know the podcast is going to a good place. I can't do calculations in the middle of a rant. All right, let me take it back to my

127:22solution for all of our culture. We know now that we pay for a thing that benefits us. Now, I I would encourage everyone to look up the duck stamp. I would encourage everybody to look up the land and water conservation fund. We don't probably have time to get into those things, but those are things that's act in a very similar way as as as as do licensed sales in a similar way to PIM and Robertson. These these are things that help fund the things we love to do. We take money from particular areas and we place it back in the public trust and we create access and opportunity across this country in amazing ways. And all in all, with all the different organizations, how much money are we talking about? You can look it up in terms of PR money, but most of this money and we have to we have to then separate this in a lot of ways from

128:10conservation groups within our space. We have backcountry hunters and anglers of which I'm a part. We have Rocky Mountain a lifetime membership. You are? Yes. Thank you. Buddy, you and Don got a free canoe. You and Don Jr. Uh I got a free uh pistol Kimber. Congratulations. I'll shoot a bear in the face which we'll talk about uh this is the longest te story ever. Ever. And so we have conservation organizations and I think this is just in the spirit of of this this user pays public benefits how it is in hunting. We have single species organizations like the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation uh Wild Sheep Foundation, Feeasants Forever, uh Rocky Mountain Goat Alliance, I mean go on and on and on. Pick and all the fishing organizations, all the fishing species, coastal conservation association. I mean, you could go on and on about associations

128:58that are kind of entwined and ingrained in our community that help to fund hugely important access. Hugely important access. I mean, think the the duck stamp itself as a piece of legislation has has supported wildlife refugees in America for decades and has opened up access to hunting in millions of acres. Similarly, the REF I've hunted conservation agency, Ducks Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, Delta Waterfell, Trout Unlimited. I I I met a dude who was a member of Trout Unlimited when I was 13. Yeah, for real. End it there. I I I had to talk to this dude about like what are you doing? He was like recruiting you trying to help the conservation of trout. And this is and so this is like the the the people that are are using these resources. We call it the sustainable use of a natural resource. Sustainable being the important part there. We're using it, but we're not

129:48using it. We're not overusing it. And to go back to my friend Dr. Valarius Sky the legend of our model of conservation we are in intervening intelligently to make sure that these populations flourish and this is debated right like this is discussed by wildlife biologists this is and this is a part of our you know model of conservation and again this is is all intertwined and the point I guess would be to say that all of this says that the hunting fishing community is paying a lot of money and a lot of time to conserve and to give access opport opportunities through public lands and other programs. The thing that they are the the thing that they are consuming, right? Sustainable Yeah. use of a natural resource. We see this thing as a natural resource and we want to use it sustainably while also foring the population. We have never had more

130:35white tail deer in this country than today. Since Columbus landed Columbus, but that's because of GMO forest. Nope. Nope. I'm going to cut you off so I can finish my story because I'm solving all the problems in America and you're trying to stop me. Go. Please Columbus talk. So here we are in this in this kumbaya world of of hunting where there is a user pays public benefits ingrained. I once when I was writing an article for about Pitman Robertson some years ago I did a straw poll of 100 people in my orbit that were hardcore hunters. I asked them what is Pitman Robertson? 97 of the hundred people didn't get it right. What did they get wrong though? They didn't either didn't know what it was. They thought it paid for some random [ __ ] it didn't pay for. They thought it was part of the duck stamp. They thought it was they didn't know

131:25what it was. Three people of a hundred and this includes like family members, people I grew up hunting with. It wasn't ingrained enough in our in our own communities. And so, how could we expect the people outside of our community to then understand it? On a side note, that'd be a great grill. Side note, I'm great great grill name Robertson. Pit Robertson Grills. Yeah. Let me a nice plet grill. Butcher, cast iron. Butcher made American. Yeah. Does he always do this, Jamie? And I'm trying to tell the history of America. A long history, but eventually that go saunter across that drainage in Montana. Saunter. Another word I'd never use. Have you used saunter? How many times? I mean, like once. Ever in your life? Yeah. This is a line more than 20. Okay. If you had all the money that you've ever earned, you had it on the table. I've been writing books in set in the 1930s. But

132:23would you be willing to push all the money you've ever earned in your life 10 to one odds on on you having said saunter 20 times? Oh, 20 times. No, absolutely not. Unless I was reading a book. Imagine the saunters just start racking up in his memory. NO S. AND HE REALIZES 17 18. No. That song I wrote called Saunter. Yeah. 23. OH. AND HE REALIZES IT'S GOING TO HIT THE NUMBER. HOW MANY TIMES have you sauntered, Jamie, into a place? Cuz I've sauntered a lot into a into a room. Sauna, bro. I sauna in a movie. How different is saunaing from a I don't know. Never mind. Oh, was in that movie. Strolling. Sauntering. Staering I I imagine would be like strolling with confidence. Strolling you're just you're just not really no care in the world. Sauntering is you have a mission. Yeah. And you're about to put it out there for the world. Actually a leisurely stroll. So same

133:17sauntering. That's that's a fake news according to people with low testosterone. Yeah. A slow relaxed manner. The difference between the way a woman walks in a sexy manner. What is that called versus sultry? But that's like the the adjective. Is there a word? Saunters seems like relaxed and confident. Well, there's a noun and a verb for saunters. Oh, wa. What's the noun? A noun is a leisurely stroll. But the verb is like it's a saunter. Wait a minute. A leisurely stroll is in motion, you [ __ ] cowards. Saunter down. I mean, it's like a go on a walk. He's moving. You walk or you go. That's a verb. Well, the verb is walk in a slow, relaxed manner. But why is this different? In 193. Okay. So, so it's a noun describing a type of walk. Yeah, it's a it's a very type of walk. That's what I say. I was going to call it a stroll, but

134:14imagine like growing up learning Chinese and trying to figure out American. Do you ever think of the time when Ding That's why I said American John Mir signature there. There it is. That's Ding signature. Jay Norwood. Ding darling. Wow. He's got a national wildlife record like Disney wrote that down in the old swamp. It does look like Disney that one, right? That's totally Here I come. Anyway, here I come. Joe, you ready? Grizzly bear, you got pretty broad shoulders. This is going to hit you hard. Uh, so we've established that we have this wonderful system that is buttressing uh hunting and fishing in the outdoors in America. Right. No, we've established this there and we've also established early in the the podcast about three or four days ago that that there is a there's a solution buried deep in hunting to all to most if not all the

135:15cultural wos that are that you've talked about on your show and you've had very smart people talk about on your show. sedentary lifestyle, kind of too much information of social media. All these things are kind of baked in and and I believe hunting has has some solution to all of those things. I really believe that I do as well. It is backed up by a structure that pays for itself and also that structure bakes in a value system that I believe in holy and the people that take part in it can opt in to believe in holy and it is it is a unifier for our our folks. I have um a long way to say that I have a a group that that I've helped create for my podcast. There was a guy that is no longer on the air. It's over there in me either. There was a guy name Juan Carlos. Juan Carlos was down in Virginia, the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia. He wrote into my show and

136:09said, "Hey man, um brand new to hunting. Need a mentor." Because as you well know, you can't hunt. Sounds like a psychopath. It's [ __ ] veans. Uh, so we helped him. Then I read the story on the air and about 30 or 40 people wrote in. I'll help Carlos. I'll I'll him being a psychopath if he's a nice fellow just joking around. Nice guy. He he um we got him a mentor and the next episode I made a kind of a joke. Hey, you know, this is the first regional chapter of our podcast. Haha. Pretty funny. We've we've helped one guy get to hunting that really wanted to get there. It's hard to get there. You will know as somebody who came from a non-hunter was Steve Cam. Yeah, it's really hard if someone doesn't have any friends that that do it. And so we so we endeavored to figure out how to to create an organization from that. This just came very organically

137:06from the podcast. People love it. They want to share it. So my proof that hunting is good for you and good for kind of the culture is that the people that want to do it also want to share it with other people for nothing. But here here's the problem. Okay, the problem is the people. It's not saying like the people that hunt are all awesome. That's not true. No, people are people. That's true. The the real problem is the perception that people have of hunters based on the people that are not nice. like right this is when you hear stories about people yes doing things that are unethical or going into uh people's uh private property or these like uh all the bad guys in movies that are hunters right remember the movie Wolverine I do there's a bunch of like really evil guys that are trying to kill a grizzly bear right do they kill a grizzly bear they

138:00poison it or something poison beauty and the beast gaston yeah But it's something crazy where it's not it's not what hunting really is. It's the worst possible example that's put in the biggest possible platform. Pop culture, Buffalo Trades. I I I agree and I've thought about this a lot, right? I and when my first reaction was probably the first couple times I came on this podcast, I was in the in the realm of like we got to fix humming's image and that was what I thought was the thing that was needed. And then at at times I thought that's not a real useful idea on a grand scale. It's really just not because you end up looking down upon people that are just trying to do what they've always done. You look down upon other hunting traditions because you're going to tell them, "Well, that's not the best for today's pop culture." Pop culture wants

138:47us to be a certain way. They don't want us What do you mean? What do you I mean, they don't want us to hunt in Africa. They don't want us to use dogs. They don't want us Africa conversation is one of the weirdest ones, right? It is one of the weirdest ones, but there's also hunting with dogs. There's also, oh man, black bear hunting. And I and I support almost all of that. All of that. And so it's been thought out long past the place where a lot of people that are casually intervening with this subject uh have brought it to. Yeah. This is a conversation that's been thought out and it's way deeper. Right. So I I I took it away from this broad level like how do I fix Hunting's image? I don't want hunting's image will be fixed and you know how we would maybe fix it by using a very localized very slow burn of just taking the good things that we've

139:37already talked about teaching people the structure teaching people the ideology of of hunting and the values that it purports. Teaching people how to love an ecosystem the one that you live in. How to learn about it. How to learn about natural history. how to learn about wildlife biology, how to learn about the North American model of wildlife conservation, how to learn about our history, and then how to go find an animal, find where it lives, learn about it, then kill it, and then eat it. This is a process that's repeated many times over millions of years, and it's very useful in today's in today's day and age. There's a lot of people, I think, that want to do it that are adults that don't know how. They don't know where they don't know where to go. They they don't know like is there an area that's close enough to them where they can live

140:27their normal life and escape for a couple days. I always describe it as like the Grand Canyon. There's I want to hunt and then the other side of the Grand Canyon there's hunting, right? And there needs to be a bridge built and I want to build that bridge to say that you need as much as I can explain to you all the great stuff about hunting, you need to experience it. Experience it locally. I feel I feel like experience it in your own communities. But it's hard for people, right? Imagine if you're in a city, you live in Brooklyn, and someone says you should start hunting. I'll tell you how to do it. I'll tell you, you got to find somebody that hunts that lives near you. That's not that easy. Follow that. You're like, I got to I got a plan. Just find gold. All right. Well, dig a hole and find your gold and then you're rich. Inspired by this little this this thing

141:06that happened on my podcast. We started a group called Now I sound like a [ __ ] promoter, but we started a group called The Hunt in Common. And this is a group that hopefully, and this was started by people that listen to my podcast outside of me. They they said, "We're going to do this. We experienced this from your show and we're going to do it. We're gonna figure it out." One of one of the guys is involved is a biotech startup guy in LA. His name's Nuri. We have another person that's a big part of our group. His name's Jordan. He's a former NFL player. We have people from across the country that want to share this [ __ ] They just want other people to see it holistically for what they've experienced and they're willing to donate their time and their money to make it to make it work to like localize mentorship to be the match.com for

141:53is that scalable like I believe it is scalable. We have already 40 or roughly 40 chapters there on Facebook but like 40 chapters pages. So how does someone find out about this? What's So right now we have the huntincom.org. You can go there. Where's the hunt? Theh huntincom.org. You can go there and there's like a little form that these guys set up and you can say, "I want to be a mentor. I want to be a mentee. I want to learn to hunt." Put your name, your mentee. Mente. Oh, for sure. Just like Buttress. Have you ever heard mentee? You ever said mentee? That's for sure. 100% have never said mentee. Have you said it? This They're like said it, used it, nope. Wrote it. 100% never said mentee. Here's a thing from this podcast you could do. Try to make a sentence. Try to make a sentence Words that Joe Rogan has never said more than once in a sentence. For sure. 100 Alex.

142:58All of them. Saunter. Saunter is a problem. S I might be lying to Oh, no. No. Mentes never come out of these lips. That's unclear. Somebody's going to figure that [ __ ] out. You got Your whole life has been recorded. You're going to have to Yeah. own up to this. I don't see mentee ever being I don't I don't think I've ever heard that. Smash cut five uses. Yeah, you probably you could probably find You don't think Jamie You don't think Jamie that he said menty at some point? But let me tell you something. If it pops up If it pops up, I'm going to go Well, I didn't know I said it. I thought I didn't say it. Oh, you're giving yourself an out already. All right. I know. I'm being honest. I'm being honest. I really genuinely don't think I've said it. It might be one of the rare words in the English language that gets used every day. Not like thy like

143:49Thy shalt thy shalt tellst one. I've had enough. That is so good. Yeah. If you say thy and you're serious. Listen crazy. Listen crazy. I got to get the [ __ ] away from you before you go back in time. You can't say thy. Mentee is not thy. Yeah, it's right up there. It's not up there at all. Is there any way you could mentor and mentee? Who the [ __ ] a mentee? What are you You're the person for someone to tell you what to do. No, you're menteed by the mentor. Yeah, if you have mentors, you've got mentees. Yeah, you got mentees before. I'm sure I've been menting menteed you more than once. More than once. But I never said it. I never said the word. Jamie, can you help me out with this? Yeah, I just said a bad joke, but they they have men tease on golf courses, but that's a different thing. Oh, men versus women tease. You son of a [ __ ]

144:38Do you guys have sound effects? You have like a sound effects board? I'd be a hornshot like Anyway, use your imagination. Anyway, I I feel like a you know, salesman guy, but but I really do feel this is true. I just for clarification though, I went to the hunt and this is We're working on it. Don't worry. It'll be up there. [ __ ] fake ass website. Just making sure this is all [ __ ] It's coming in. What kind of [ __ ] show is this? This will um that's not even a geio city's website. It's not. This will this is going to make the suspense even better. And that actually at the hunting or fail miserably at the huntingcom.org will tell that grizzly bear story. No, we're going to get to that story. Okay. Anyway, that's we're working on that. I was actually talking to the folks that were doing that today. So, have

145:25confidence in me people out there. Yeah. or don't, whatever. People that don't know Ben, trust me. Trust trust Joe. He's going to be fine. You help me out? Yeah. You got me? Okay. 100%. So, um I my feeling is after all this experience that I've had that there is an opportunity to localize this thing to say, "Look, man, this is a hard thing to do. It's very beneficial." And I think because it's hard, it can help you with a lot of the problems you might have in your life. It also is backed by a system and a model that is when that has helped us get a whole bunch of wildlife. But we have to acknowledge it's not for everybody. Just like marathon running or crossing, it's not for everybody. And I think a lot of things aren't for everybody. I think the big thing for hunting is not that people need to participate in it. It's that they need to understand it and

146:11just just say, "Look, I appreciate it's not for me." I don't have any real problem with someone who says, "I appreciate hunting, but I'd like to buy my stuff at the grocery store." But there's listen, there's nothing wrong with that. This is this is what we have to understand. We have to have space for everybody. We have to have space for uh people who write novels. We have to have space for people who build bridges. We can't expect the guy who engineers a [ __ ] bridge to go hunt a white tail. Stop it. He doesn't want He wants to figure out how to make a [ __ ] bridge so you can drive across the river and you don't die. Okay? Leave him the [ __ ] alone and give him some meat. Right? That's the point. That's the point. The point is like we're not in competition with each other. And if literally 95% of the population of the

147:02planet Earth eats meat. Let's figure out a way to do it where it's ethical. And well, let me just say this. I don't want everyone to hunt, but I want everyone to have an open access to the information that's appropriate to learn to make the decision. They want to hunt the making the decision. That's everything. That's all I want. I want them to know the history, make an informed decision. I want them to meet people in their community that they respect that also hunt and not look down upon them. I want them to understand that this is a thing that's useful to a lot of people may not be for them. I want them to understand that that there isn't two polar opposites, vegans and hunters. There is a great middle ground where we can all understand the good here. And like I said, I've never I've never taken a new person hunting and not have them really

147:45fall in love, I would say, with some aspect of it. Not all aspects of it. I've had many people, I take them hunting for the first time, they shoot something and they really don't want to see it struggle for its life. Yeah. That's a deep and abiding human feeling that you don't want to watch something struggle for its life at your hand. Dude, the first time I ever killed anything, it's on video. Yeah. It's on me. Yeah. First time I ever killed a mammal Yeah. was on me eater. Yeah. When I shot a white tail or shot a a mu deer in Montana. Yeah. Yeah, you can find it on YouTube. I I'm I'm very happy that I live in the generation where we can have these conversations cuz when I was coming up, I think there was enough bravado and enough kind of we don't talk about this. Yeah. Where I could say, "Hey man, I really sometimes and I'll tell you this story

148:31and be very honest about it. I was squirrel hunting with my son recently and I shot this squirrel in the spine and this squirrel was [ __ ] you know, he was paralyzed but he was running for his life from me. This [ __ ] was not fun at all. This [ __ ] was We ate that squirrel and a squirrel pot pie two days later and it was delicious. But but it was not at all fun for me to watch it struggle for its life at my hand nonetheless. But it's crazy that you need to say that. Of course it wasn't. That's not your intent. But to your point is somebody Cam Haynes's point now we get back to the craft where if I learn to talk to an elk better if I learn to shoot my 22 better if I if I make my whole life about this craft then then that makes me a more ethical hunter because I now know where that arrow will land. I now know where that 22 bullet

149:37will land and I now know I better understand the outcome of what's going to happen. That doesn't ever stop a wounding or a gut shot or or in this case a spine shot. That doesn't stop the shittiness of kind of like the finality of what you've just done, but it does put you right next to it. And it it makes you realize who you are, what you are, and why you're here and like your impact on the things around you way better than someone else whacking a chicken over the head and serving it to you in this wonderful cellophane wrapper. You're I'm now I have a side of like I don't want to say I have a side of guilt with my squirrel slippery pot pie, but I have a side of understanding. Like I have a side of I know what that thing is. You say slippery pot pie. You don't know what that is. Go to my Instagram immediately. Jamie. Any knowledge of slippery pot pie? This is a

150:27You say it so casual. Everybody knows. Oh, this whole podcast about [ __ ] that you Go to my Instagram. It's a Pennsylvania Dutch slippery pot pie to most of planet Earth. Now you've offended Pennsylvania Dutch. That's I'm not offending anybody. Slippery squirrel pot pie. Yeah. Okay, there it is right there. Okay. Oh, what a coincidence. It's Ben's [ __ ] Instagram. I told him to go to my Instagram. No coincidence. Where else? You won't find that anywhere else. There's a bunch of eggs in there. No, that's flat noodles. That's flat noodles. What are those uh little yolk looking things? No, it says the slippery pot squirrel pot pie was the best game dish I've ever had. Slippery pot pie is basically a chicken soup with flat square noodles. It's popular in the Pennsylvania Dutch community. Little uh yolk looking things. Y corn. That's corn. Oh,

151:19lime with beans from the garden. Corn from the garden. Squirrel there on the right. And then those flat those noodly looking things. Yep. You circled the squirrel there. So you have fake eggs with corn centers. What? That's a noodle. Look like a noodle to me. Concept. It's like a egg. I bought that at a store. Is a noodle. Uh it's called Ann's square dumplings. If you just said slippery squirrel pot pie. Yeah. How many people go, "Oh, yeah. Good number of them." What's the number? Jamie. Jamie. Yeah, I've been in that area once for food and I've I mean there was I was 15 so but that we didn't have that and I've never heard of it being from Ohio. Of course you haven't heard of it. It's nonsense. Well, I grew up in a different place than Joe Rogan. This guy just making [ __ ] up. Stop putting down my culture. He wrote it on his Instagram. It's the

152:08only reference online. Imagine Google Slippery Pope Pie. I'm looking it up. I I feel like I've heard of people eating like squirrel roadkill more than I've ever heard of The roadkill thing is weird cuz like it should be 100% legal for you to eat roadkill. Many states it is. But it is not all but many. The problem is this crazy notion that you're targeting deer with your car. So dumb. Squirrel still is the meat of the pot pie. Correct. You're Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now search slippery. Take squirrel out. Slippery pop pie. What makes slippery? Quiet, Joe. There it is. Why is quiet? It's my own show. What makes it slippery? Keep talking. Pennsylvania Dutch chicken pot pie. But what makes it slippery? Slippery is that the noodles are slippery and it's not the crust of an actual pot pie. I'm not a Pennsylvania Dutch. This is just my my uh mother,

153:09Luc, my grandmother. My my matern my paternal grandmother, Lucille O'Brien, made this as I was growing up. Is it good? It's delicious. It's the best. If I had it right now, you would be flipping out on how delicious it is. Pie. I only had it once. It's like a chicken noodle soup with a flat dumpling. And in fact, if you go to the store, uh maybe you search Ann's flat dumplings is the thing I bought. Just call it dumplings. Why you got to be so needy and connect yourself to the pie world? not a pie, [ __ ] You know what a pie is? I'D LIKE AN APPLE PIE. WHAT'S THIS NOODLE SOUP? You [ __ ] But that pot pie is slippery. It's hard to get a hold of slippery squirrel NOODLE SOUP. I WANTED A PIE. IT'S DELICIOUS. JOE ROGAN, THAT'S NOT a [ __ ] pie by anybody's estimation. I feel attacked. Right. That's pie. You with me, Joe?

154:05That's actually a good point. That's chicken noodle soup. Jamie, who you side with here? Me or Joe? This one for sure. Thank you. Holla. He pays your bills. Well, that has nothing to do with He's my friend. We agree. Pie pie is in a cult. You can eat like bread. You think I'm in a slippery pot pie cult? 100%. That's a bowl of soup. Who the [ __ ] if you just said, "Hey, is this a pie? Yes or no? All your money's on the line." Slippery apple pie. [ __ ] Where's a slippery apple pie? Click on that one. Jamie, Google it. Hold on. Hold on, please. Yeah, any of them. Click on any of them. I won't have it. Okay, stop for a second. Now, look at that image to the right. Yep. No. No. Go to the one that's actually in the bowl so you can see the whole [ __ ] bowl. Okay. Now, here we are. Imagine if I said, "Hey, Ben O'Brien." Yeah. Hey,

154:53I'm going to give you an opportunity to multiply your money by 10. Okay. So, everything you've ever learned in ever earned in your life, okay? You can make 10 times more than that if if you're correct. If not, you're indebted to me for everything you've ever earned, right? But if you if you're correct, you make 10 times more than anything you've ever earned. Okay. Is it slippery? Is it a pie? I feel like Gordon Ramsay would be like, "This is a [ __ ] soup." Is that [ __ ] soup? Let's stop playing games, son. Look at That's right. You're correct. You're correct. And all you people that said pie, go outside. I want you to exercise. I want you to jog a mile. That's what I want you to do, you [ __ ] I want you to deadlift your body weight 10 times. COULD YOU? THAT'S SOUP. LET'S LOOK AT SLIPPERY apple pie. THAT'S NOT A [ __ ] PIE.

156:05SEE, apple pie has pie crust. That's right. JAMIE COMES FROM OHIO. THEY'RE NOT CRAZY IN OHIO. I almost feel like if you don't have crust, you ain't got pie. That's right. All you squirrel eating, pie talking [ __ ] I'm not going to let this get to me. I'm going to stay strong in the face of this this You ain't doing [ __ ] I'm going to stay strong. That's nonsense. You believe in nonsense. That's soup. I don't believe in I believe in If that was soup, I'd say it's quite watery. I believe in I hope it's tasty. I believe in the delicious slippery pot pie tradition of the Pennsylvania Dutch and my grandmother Lucille O'Brien. Rest in peace being sullied by Joe Rogan. They came over here eating shoes. They ate shoes. They boiled shoes to stay alive. Lucil and Brian would never boil shoes. They ate pine cones. They They're not even using the word

156:56slippery here. They're just saying it's a Pennsylvania Dutch chicken pot pie. Slippery is not the word we're talking about. We're talking about pie we're talking about. Don't change the [ __ ] rules. They can't read. Okay. How do they not read in Pennsylvania? Those people highly educated called that a pie. They never saw pie in their [ __ ] life. They've been eating pine cones at this point. At this point, there's a [ __ ] pie right there. They've been eating salamanders and pine cones. Is that pot pie slippery? Would it slip out of your hands if you try to pick it up? Press all that pain. If someone says, "Hey, you all the money in the world." Listen to me, [ __ ] [ __ ] If someone looks at that and says, "Hey, for all the money in the world, is that soup?" I go, "That is a [ __ ] pie.

157:39That's not soup." Imagine if you said, "Hey, you want some [ __ ] apple soup?" And someone brings apple soup. You'd be like, "Hey, [ __ ] you." Is that pie slippy? That pie's not slippery at all. It's probably stays right in your hands. Listen, dude. It's not a pie. It's not going to slip anywhere. Ham pot pie right there. That says ham pot pie. Can you eat that pop that slippery pot pie with a fork or do you need a spoon? fork you can do, but a lot of it slips through the fork. [ __ ] you ain't eating any of that with a fork. You You be the amount of liquid that's in that pot pie. All right, I'm going to come back in January and I'm going to make you I'm going to change your I'm going to change my number cuz I'm All right. So, I was out in this drain as this grizzly bear. This grizzly bear, my dad's there and I'm cow calling.

158:28Okay. And you think the elk's coming? I think this elk's coming, but it's not. It's not. I see the elk go across this ridge, right? It goes across this ridge and then I see this brown flash go down this hill in front of me. And there's there's a bit of a, you know, if you look like this, this this brown flash has to go down this ridge and then around the corner of the spine of the ridge and stay down in the valley. I know that above me is a is a elk carcass freshly killed yesterday. So, I'm calling. I'm waiting for this big bull elk. I'm looking this way and I turn around. I look down below me and 100 yards below me, my dad's here. I'm here. And I turn around below me and there's a giant bear 100 yards below me. I turn all the way around like, "Dad, there's a bear. There's a bear. There's a bear. There's a bear." I have my pistol right here. Does dad have pistol?

159:20He's not. He has a bow only. I have a pistol and bear spray. Does dad have bear spray? He does not. At this point, he's not. So, luckily, I'm between him and the bear. The bear goes down the drainage. I remember, as a hunter, mostly I'm worried about is this a black bear or a grizzly bear. I didn't know at the time. It was kind of shadowed in this ravine as it was going up. And I'm looking through the boss. I'm like, I don't know what this is. I'm not sure if it's a black or grizzly bear. Grizzly bears have a distinct hump that you're looking for that's different from a black bear. And they can be and this black bear is uh sauntering down. At the risk of making this a longer story. Yeah. Explain why it's way more dangerous if it's a grizzly. A black bear, you and I have experienced this in Alberta together. A black bear is not as aggressive, not as predatory.

160:11Black bear attacks are very less frequent than grizzly bear attacks. I don't know that I could explain kind of just the nature of a grizzly bear. And a black a black bear is is an omnivore in many ways. A grizzly bear is a car carnivore. And in this scenario, I would be if it was a black bear, I would be looking to shoot it rather than being afraid of it because I love black bear meat. It's delicious. And black bear fat. You've had clay nuke on you make bear grease. It's it's one of the best things that there is. So I I guess that maybe explains the difference. And then for for people like in comparison, it's like a golden retriever versus a wolf. pretty much. That's a pretty good comparison. It's a completely different animal. I wish there was a wild biologist to kind of really lay it out there, but you probably say German shepherd wolf.

160:57Yeah, probably [ __ ] I'm I'm trying to be like more comedic, but this this it's a different animal. It is. And and I would say that you've seen it in when we were hunting bait in Alberta. Yeah. When a black bear comes in, you're willing to stand your ground. You know, we were on our way. We saw a grizzly in Alberta when we were on our way to where we were hunting. Looking eye to eye with a grizzly is wild. It's a wild thing. And and when when a grizzly bear comes through a stand of timber or you know mountain side in this case, things go quiet. And we didn't even when I was in Alberta, the one I've seen in the wild was not that big, but the one you saw was big. This is one of the biggest bears I've ever seen. I'm talking big hind end. is give me a give me a roundabout. I have no idea. I would guess it at the 6 and 12 to 7 ft.

161:54I don't know how to guess the how much it weighed. 350. No, [ __ ] weigh more than that. 450 700 600 lb. We later found 700 lb. We later found the track on the road where we later found the track on the road where we walk in every morning to the drainage. This little two track dirt road where we walk in. We found this thing's track. So it it is sauntering up this drainage and there's a moment where my mind's not in the right spot. It's in this in the place of is this a grizz bear black bear? And I now that I look back on that moment, it that bear was about two seconds away from ripping my face off. Oh my god. I'm cow calling to that bear. I'm a cow elk. And to me, I wasn't scared. I wasn't pulling for my pistol. I was watching it as a hunter might watch any game species that it comes that thinking an elk's going to come over the ridge. Yeah.

163:00And a big bear. A How many How much How many pounds? Maybe 7 800 lb. I don't know. I hope I'm not wrong. Let's be nice. A big one. Let's be nice and say 600. Imagine a 600 lb super predator. One swat. One full clip towards you. I've interviewed many of people that have had their face ripped off, their testicles ripped off. I know the the pure carnage that a grizzly bear like that can do. And I also know in my pack is is a tourniquet and all the medical supplies a man might carry. But I als and I'm pretty close to town. My dad's there. We have our cell phone service. We're not in the back country. I know at this point when I determined it to be a grizzly bear, it's already walking up the drainage away from me. I determined it's a grizzly bear. I know then that if it turns back to us, we got a problem. But if it keeps going up the drainage, I

163:49know where it's headed. It's headed to that elk kirkus that was there. And so luckily for us, it it goes up the drainage, it heads over towards the el carcass and and ducks into the timber. And that's I mean, it's not the end of it, but that's the end of that encounter. And you're carrying a pistol. I have a pistol. What caliber? 44 Magnum. A Taurus 44 Magnum Ultralite. And I have a chess holster. It's from a guy named It's Rasco. A guy in Boseman makes this chest holder that attaches to the bottom of Is this a revolver? This revolver and and I have bear spray on the hip uh belt of my So you can get off six shots. I can get off six shots. Six shots. And I know again having been in the industry and talked to a lot of people that have had encounters, I know kind of how this is going to go. And likely how it goes is the the only way you get out of it is

164:48um you get mauled and the bear loses interest or the person that's with you saves you in some manner, right? Yeah. Um there's a pretty famous The dad doesn't have a gun. He doesn't. He has a bow and you're in front. I'm in front. Oh. So I'm between these two and and again this is Is your pistol in is it you have to open up a snap to pull it out or is it highex or something? It's fully in a a molded holster that I can pull out and present, right? Easy. It'll be double action cuz I don't have it cocked. And do you have a thought when that's happening where he might run away, but if I shoot him, he might attack me. Yeah. I mean, as there's like a calculation, right? Yeah. And again, as a hunter, I'm I'm more interested in what is this thing doing? Why is it here? Than I am like I should run away, right? And that is um I think both appropriate and also far probably not

165:41the best thing to be doing, man. Like you should probably be Can you Can you remember what you thought? Like what went through your head when you realized it wasn't an elk and it was a giant grizzly bear? Finally. Yeah. because you are in a country where you know dude I've been out in June setting a trail camera and heard a wolf howl. I I told you I talked to the game warden. He's like, "There's bears around." And so the thing that you do is you prepare for the worst. And you really really prepare for the worst. And I and I did it knowing that that there's folks that I've talked to, like I said, that have had had really life-changing experiences. One of them in Kodiak, a brown bear ripped off his testicles. One of them in Alaska, a brown bear, I think grizzly bear ripped off his face. And so I know these stories. I know them all too [ __ ] well.

166:41This is a video of that one guy. Yeah. Pretty recently. Glenn Bond. Yeah. How many? Four or five years ago, right? It would have been uh back in Yeah, roughly roughly whatever, give or take a few years. Yeah, that one is available online. It's It's horrendous kind of. Yeah, they they keep pulling it offline. face back together again. Pretty good. I'm I have the full I talked to that guy. I know that guy very well. And I have the full story of that. You can listen to it on the Hunting Collective. There's a there's a podcast with Brett. I listen to it. It's amazing. It's a whole another show probably. But but it it's like that's one of those conversations where like a vegan or an animal rights activist would be like good good. Some people might say that. Some people might say that like I'm glad I'm glad that [ __ ] and people said that about the about

167:36Brett Bond and his father Glenn was attacked. There was a lot of people saying like cuz they were hunting bears at the time and they were hunting bears in their den on the Denali highway in Alaska. Yeah. And so people were like good you hunt them in their den that's what happens. And again, and that's where where I come back to the the emotion of finally because so much of my hunting life in Montana has been anticipation of those encounters. And that was the first ever with a bear, a grizzly bear. Yeah. Well, not the first ever my life. First ever Montana. I I was once on a caribou hunt up in Northwest Territories. Uh they helicopter you out into the middle of nowhere and then you have a I think a 12-h hour delay before you can hunt once you've been helicoptered into the wilderness. I think it's 12 or 24 hours, but you have a delay before you

168:20can hunt. So, you literally have to sit there and wait. And we were there at a time in August when there was no darkness. It was literally light pretty much the entire 24-hour day. And so, we sat on a ridge line and we were glassing for caribou in the in the period where we couldn't hunt. And here comes this SA grizzly beard down this drainage. Every bush that she went by whack. Every piece of moss she just was crushing. She was upset. She's having a bad day. Whether her cub got taken or she was just in a predatory mood, it was I remember glassing her with a spotting script going like, "Hope she doesn't come over here." And we were sitting on kind of a Is that normal behavior when like a cub gets eaten by a boar? I don't know if that's normal behavior. I imagine it to be that for folks who don't know that that happens a lot and the females try to

169:15fight the boar off. I imagine it to be. I imagine them to be aggressive in the times that they need to be, but I don't I don't know enough to know if that's like every time a cub gets eaten, she goes out and whacks the [ __ ] out of the next thing she sees. I don't I don't know that. But in this case, this S was alone. She was not uh she didn't look all that mature, but she was going down this drain. It's just everything she saw, she was hidden. And I thought, well, if she comes by me, you're [ __ ] I'm [ __ ] Yeah. And we were kind of on a what we would call a glass and tit, which is kind of a raised up ridge in Glass. And she got at some point below us where we couldn't see her. What a terrifying idea of a mad grizzly like a road raging grizzly. You're like, dude. Oh. And and then you think

170:01that is it's like someone just [ __ ] [ __ ] you. And where do grizzlies live, right? The grizzlies don't live by the urgent care, right? They live in places where if they whack you, you're [ __ ] You're [ __ ] Unless your friend knows how they break both your legs, you have to crawl to safety if you can. So, in examples of Brett Bond, who we were just talking about, his he saved his father. His father got his face ripped off by a grizzly bear. He comes running down the hill with his 454 Cassul, shoots this bear, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Kills it. It actually I was reading some of the his accounts of the hunt. He measured 5 and 1/2 ft from his bootstrap to where the bear died when he was defending his father's life. His father had been attacked. Oh my god. How much did the bear weigh?

170:43The bear is now in uh Glenn Bond, who's 70. He's probably in his 80s now. Uh is in his living room. He got it mounted full standing mount and it it's in his living room. I bet that bear weighed 800 plus pounds easy. And again, apologies for getting that wrong if that's the case. But God, it ripped his You could probably try to find it. His Don't Don't show it. Don't show it. You don't want to show it. Folks can find it if they want to. So Brett's Brett's Instagram is BBB Alaskan. You go there, you'll find this video. Um if folks want to see it, it's but it's hardcore. It's It's one of the most gruesome It's one of the most gruesome things that you'll see if you want to see it. If you want to see it. Um, and so I know that video there was another um, marine who was on a fog neck island which is similar to where Reanella and crew got

171:34attacked. He was attacked by a bear and it ripped his testicles They were since put back on, but congratulations. Yeah. And so when I I've they were off then they're on. So when this bear pops out finally is like kind of a a way of thinking like this is going to hap if if you take the chance to go outside in a place where you know there's grizzlies. And think about this. This happened to me this year. I shoot this elk this year. This is a year later. I shoot this elk and now I am in the dark by myself for roughly three hours till my buddies get there with a giant dead animal that I'm now skinning and removing the meat from. Do you have a gun? Yes, I do. Um, but I'm in the dark with a headlamp only. And I'm in the dark literally this last September, uh, probably 50 yards from where that grizzly bear walked through the year before. And now I've have a

172:34giant elk that's dead in front of me. And I have I'm by myself in the dark. I killed it at 7:00 p.m. It got dark at 8:00. Before my friends got there to help me pack it out, I was 3 hours roughly of skinning it and quartering it by myself. when when it's totally completely totally dark dark and quiet and you're in the office. Did you ever think that this is going to be it? Yeah, of course I did. This is where it ends. Of course I did. I was like I really I remember thinking this year I remember thinking this isn't the over dramatized thing. Like if you live in where I live, this is a common occurrence. Like this is what happens. You kill an elk, you're in Grizzly country, you [ __ ] you know, you deal. But I remember thinking, man, I know people this has happened to. This is not this is a rare occurrence, but it happens.

173:21And I'm in a position where every stick that breaks, I'm turning my little headlamp over there, hoping that my black diamond headlamp can can LED its way into seeing what's there. And so, and I know that there's been literally, you know, 12 months prior to that, a grizzly bear standing right there. I know it. I've seen it. I know that fact. And so, it's scary, man. And and yes, having a firearm strapped to my chest and my holster helps a little bit. Helps a little bit, but I know from knowing that it's just the vulnerability, like knowing what that animal's capable of. Yeah. And and I go back to I go back to like what hunting is in itself. It's like it's the game theory we talked about earlier on, but it's also the vulnerability of those moments that helps me understand who I am as a man. And then also in the moments where I

174:10think, man, you know, modern society is kind of the sedentary lifestyle is getting to me. I want to get outside. Like I get to go drive 30 minutes from my house and challenge myself against what could possibly be a big fat [ __ ] grizzly bear, right? But you don't want that. I don't want that. But you you're you're not Let's be real. You're not If there was no deer and elk out there, you wouldn't be out there like, "Let's hope I don't get killed by a grizzly." No, you're that's that's a side. I'm not playing at it. I'm I'm saying that it's a reality of the thing I love to do. Yes. And so here I am loving this thing that is elk hunting. The craft we talked about, you know, eight hours ago is real. I mean, it's a craft. I learned Jason Phelps is is, you know, part of me either and and he's a huge um advocate for I mean, he he started an

174:56elk calling company and and he has all this information and I want to learn it and I want to learn how to archery hunt. I want to learn from Cam Haynes and and John Dudley how to make that arrow go where I want that [ __ ] thing to go. And I want to learn how to pack as light as possible and how to be prepared for the back country with with my medical kit and my kill kit which and I want to go take that meat home and pack it out and then butcher it at my house and then and show my son how what muscle groups are what and what are what's a roast and what's a steak and I want to take that and then I want to put it in the freezer. I want to pull it out and I want to cook it for my family and go, "Hey." And also, I want to boil the elk skull. I want to whiten that skull and I want to hang that on my [ __ ] wall in my

175:39garage. And I want to go, hey, this whole thing, this entire thing is interactive. It's real. And it challenges everything that I know about the world around me. And it makes me learn what a what an ecosystem is, how an elk relates to a wolf, how a wolf relates to an elk, how I relate to elk and wolves. Terms like trophic cascade, things like intelligent intervention, it leads me to those real deep thoughts. And then and then when I'm worried about whether I'm doing the right thing, then I look back at the structure of Pivon Robertson, the structure of the duck stamp and the structure of the the public, you know, the user pays public benefits system. And I look back at that and I go, [ __ ] all these personal experiences are backed by a structure that's pretty beautiful. I would say if it wasn't I'm not a big go I don't love government.

176:35I'm a big government guy. But as far as government goes, pretty damn good. I would say that I'm a libertarian in my But then this is what I keep getting at. I think this this structure could be applied to a lot of things we do. I agree. I really do agree with you. I think if you look at the sportsman structure, the fisherman, hunter, and then second amendment advocate that's out there, you know, shooting a lot of just rounds the range. Those folks are contributing so much to the greater good while allowing them their freedom to pursue the things they enjoy. If we applied that to other stuff, like I got I said earlier, if we said every time you buy an iPhone, let's say 11% of that goes to like prison reform. Yeah. 11% goes to like education. 11% goes to some sort of a reinvigoration of impoverished communities, investment in communities. Think about the public

177:28trust doctrine inside of our North American model. Public trust just basically says no one owns this. We all own it together. That's all it says. It doesn't it's no more complicated than just that sentiment. It says like you own land. You don't own the elk on that land. Right. And it works. It works. If that could be applied to other parts of our world, I really think we got to I think there's something real there. I think it's almost like there's a thing that happened during the pandemic where people realize like there was this this gap between like people that hunt and people that use guns and the people that never would conceive of it. Like I have a friend of mine, his wife is like, "You're not getting a gun. You're not getting a gun. Pandemic hits, George Floyd riots, you got to get a gun." Like it was [ __ ] immediate. It

178:12was immediate. And like that's what happens. you you without being a mean person, you got to consider the fact that this is a possibility. And this gap, which used to be pretty wide, when the pandemic hit, it all closed in. And then we we have to do collectively as people is abandon these groups, abandon these ideologies and these teams and instead just like look at like what is the reality of the the the the math? What it when it comes to like wild animals, when it comes to humans, when it comes to habitat, when it comes to like sustainable resources, like what's the math, right? Okay. Because when it comes to the math of animals, you want to start bringing in wolves. Like, have you done the math? Like, what's the math on wolves? Wolves are the only animal that work together. They work other than coyotes. But coyotes can't put a dent in a moose

179:08population, right? Wolves can [ __ ] up an elf popul an elk populate an elf. They would [ __ ] up elves. Elves they're slow with the shoes with those bells. The wolves can heal them. They have bells in their toes. Dr. Dan Sailor, the guy from Yellowstone, told me that you think that wolves are efficient. Wolves are uh opportunistic in a lot of ways as well as coyotes are opportunistic. You start looking then you start going up the scale to mountain lions and grizzly bears. Their predatory behavior is less opportunistic and more just straight predatory. Grizzlies. Grizzlies because they're so big. Yeah. And they're different. That's the thing that like why is there a grizzly and why is there a brown bear? Like people um really don't distinguish. A lot of people think that like Alaska those are grizzly bears.

179:55Yeah. There's different brown bears too. Coastal and and I Yeah, I but it's amount the amount of food they have available to them changes their behavior. behavior cuz like genetically, isn't a brown bear super similar to a grizzly? Like they're interchangeable. They wouldn't be a hybrid, right? I want to say no hybrid. No, but they're similar like a polar bear and a grizzly when they mate. I want to say Reanella. It's a hybrid. Reella is the one and his his a fog neck Baritech uh podcast. They go through this in pretty good detail. He knows it better than I did. And then Remy came on this podcast and told his version of the story and it's um I don't remember what episode it is, but it's worth reviewing because Remy tells a horrific story of them being attacked. Okay, let's just Ben was talking about a bear that was horrifying. What would you say? 6 and 1

180:40half, 7 feet. It was a big bear. They thought it was 11. They thought their bear was 11. And the bears on a fog neck and and again like you're on an island in the archipelago off the coast of Alaska. I was like, I could have went to Target in 30 minutes. I was, bro. So, I'm not like, let's not say those dudes were in what we might call the [ __ ] They're in the [ __ ] They're in the [ __ ] And they went to uh an elk carcass that they had shot that they had shot earlier. And so, they were retrieving it in uh stages. So, they went they took some of it like I was talking about about coming. They hiked it out. They went to their camp and then they went back to retrieve the rest. and they found some grizzly bear [ __ ] and they didn't think too much about it and they sat sat down to eat lunch and while they were eating lunch

181:30unarmed a a giant bear ran up on them and just it's a but nobody died so that's why it's these are these are experienced outdoorsmen Jiannis Patella FY Warren fascinating fascinating story yeah and and again I would say like the the stories that I've covered and understand about grizzly bears tell they tell a particular thing they tell a particular thing that We are living in this time where, as you've said, there's monsters out there. That's a monster. If that was a werewolf, you'd be terrified. And we don't understand them. We We wish to understand them. They've been grizzly bears and wolves have been politicized in our time. Yeah. Along the lines of the Republican and um Democrat ideologies in a way that I I just hate. Um and I think that's just a big part of how enigmatic they are. Well, look what's going on in the Pacific Northwest, like

182:18in British Columbia. In British Columbia, they used to hunt grizzly bears because they wanted to sustain the population. They wanted to figure out how to get it to a manageable level because otherwise then the grizzly bears would attack a lot of the fawns and a lot of the the the calves and all these different animals. But then the city people, the people from SE or excuse me um uh V uh Vancouver, those were the people that voted against it because those are the that's the largest population. Yeah, they call that ballot box biology, right? And it goes against the model of conservation we talked about. They don't have any understanding of what it means to live in a place where like hawk ribs. Well, think about this. So Colorado had this ballot box biology like, hey, we're all going to vote for the reintroduction of wolves. ballot measure in the last election.

183:05Sounds like you're very green, eco-friendly if you say yes. Well, think about it. And I always think of it in both of these terms. And I've seen it in reality. You have a person as a rancher who owns land, who runs cattle. Their life is off the land. They have a relationship with the land that can't be repeated. Then you have someone living in Denver or Boulder who doesn't have that relationship or Vancouver. Yeah. Or Vancouver in the same analogy. And that's why in our North American model, we don't we seed these decisions to wildlife biologists and scientists in an effort, not a perfect effort, but but a holistic effort to not allow public sentiment to override the realities of wildlife management. And that's what when we talk about vegans and we talk about some of the struggles with animal rights, we talk about a public sentiment that's

184:00easier swayed in that direction. When you say to someone, there's a complex system of checks and balances and cause and effect in the outdoor world. That might allow us to kill some wolves but not all wolves. That might allow some a carrying capacity where hunters are a tool for wildlife biologists but not the only tool. But this is very complex. This is hard to manage. uh we're going to have to sit here for a while to explain it. It's much harder to then to say wolves are friendly. They have families. If you shoot them, that's bad, right? It's it's it's easier and it's always But that fits in with the Disney narrative and everything. It's always been easier to spin that narrative. And I don't blame anybody. People that have these narratives in their head, they they have them from media. They don't have them from direct interactions with actual. And this is what

184:44I have to be so bad I can't talk anymore. So, we have to hold this if you want to keep going. Oh, we've been This is 4 hours or five. How long we've been there, Jamie? 3 hours for sure. 3 hours. I have to pee so bad. So do I. We go together. So, let's pee. We'll come back. We'll wrap this up with a nice bow. We'll be right back. And we're back. So much relief. I was about to pee my pants. I was really close. I was like, I'm trying to be strong. I'm trying to David Gogggin/Joo willing. You know, it's one of those things where when you said I had to pee, I beat it. He was like, yeah, me too. Well, like three hours of it. How many minutes in? Where we at, brother? 305. That's Yeah, that's not bad. That's not bad. I thought we might be five or six. That's That's manageable. That's a manageable podcast. We always tend to go there. Yeah, they all go that way. But you were

185:28saying like there's a there's a time machine. There's a time machine that happens with good conversations. You have have a good time. I [ __ ] love you, man. I love you, too. That's why I'm not scared to say it. I love you, too. I'm not It's not uh something I'm embarrassed of. And um you're a good guy or a smart guy or fun guy. We have a lot of fun together. I [ __ ] love it. We've had fun together for as many years as we've known each other. Like from We never had a bad time, Ben O'Brien. I never had a bad time with you. I never had a bad time with you. I know a lot of people have been in this seat saying the same [ __ ] but I don't care. Think about how many times you and I have been out out together, hunting together, bro. You know, so many just fun times. So many fun times. I I want to say that I think maybe

186:10hunting is a part of that, but I don't think that's true. It's a part of it. It's But it's all connected together. It's like the thing about hunting is you're all agreeing that you disagree. You're all agreeing that you disagree with like the standard model of how to get meat. You all agree that you're willing to go out. Yeah. You're you're willing to go out and get your own deer and that eating a deer is really better for you than eating some sort of weird processed cow meat. You put your hand up and say, "Hey guys, getting food should be hard. It's been hard for a million years." Yeah. It's hard. and and the difficulty of getting your food leads to the thing that that makes you value the food itself. And when you're eating it, it tastes better. I can't explain it, but it does. It does. But here's here's where the problem is. This is where

186:58people get real weird. Where people get like real conspiratorial when they think about the elites that run this country, like those weird world leaders. Yeah. How many people can we sustain? You know how many the the reason why we have so many people is because someone figured out how to supply those people with food. It's not you and me. Like those most of those people are not supplying food for themselves. But in turn by supplying food to people that don't supply their own food, those people are allowed to innovate and they make airplanes and computers and cell phones and satellites and all those things that you don't make if you're a [ __ ] hunter or gatherer. Well, and this is this is where it gets. So, if you're a person with an iPhone and you don't like hunting, you're a [ __ ] hypocrite. You're missing the

187:44point. We need everybody. We need soldiers. We need nurses. We need doctors. Okay. We need teachers. We need a [ __ ] everybody. We need everybody to figure this thing out. Yeah. And I think um I I've interviewed people from plant-based burger companies, like the the the big ones. Hold on. Keep going. Is there any of them that taste good? No. We had a taste test one time uh in our office as a mediator about this and it was not great. We we can easily figure out an elk burger versus a plane burger. I think what you're saying is the scariest thing about that is that we're able to quickly when we look holistically at what farming is, what land use is, and what wildlife is, and what ecosystem health is, and we look across a space about what sharing the land might look like, how about sustainable use of land might look like, the version of the

188:40plant-based burger feels good and it's kind of the veneer that it paints across your consumption. But when you dig down deep, you look at monoculture crops that monoculture crops and you look at how what this world would have to be to sustain this kind of veneer of your plant-based burger. Narnia. It's Yeah, it's [ __ ] It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't It's not good for you. It's not good for you. Most importantly, it's not good for the land. It's not good for the wildlife. Listen, if you want to eat vegetables, eat vegetables. Those are good for you. Look into regenerative agriculture. Don't eat some crazy fake meat. Yeah. Shout out to like Rome Ranch that's not close to that I've been to and and that's close to here. Yeah. That does that with there's there's so many things that are connected to hunting that that I found myself.

189:26That's the complicated conversation. Yeah. I'm not on like I don't have a podcast right now. I'm not on the air, but I I'm I I'm very excited about the future of conversations because all this [ __ ] is interconnected. All this [ __ ] matters and we can have an honest conversation about how close we are to each other. There isn't vegans and hunters. There isn't there there is one group of people trying to figure this out. And it's so complicated that anybody trying to generalize it is probably lying to you. Yeah. And this this um the idea to collect everybody into these groups, vegans versus hunters, right versus left, and it's it's not good for anybody. I very much hope in the future that I'm able to to to get off the ground a podcast with my my friend. Why don't you just have a podcast? What

190:09the [ __ ] are you talking about? You talk about it like you're starting some kind of crazy like infrastructure. We have to dig tunnels into the city. It's gonna take me Make a [ __ ] podcast, [ __ ] Why are you complaining? I will. Right. Thank you. Jamie agrees. I'll do it. Thank you, Joe Rogan, for the direction there. I hope I can do it one day. One day I'll breathe. A podcast and I'll have a slippery squirrel pot pie. I'll throw it in your [ __ ] face. [ __ ] pie. It's a soup. All your money on the line with most of the world betting. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to get There's a world of vote. The whole world has a vote. Is that a pie or a soup? No, it's coming to you. Guess what, [ __ ] It's a [ __ ] soup. The realness is coming to you. I'm going

190:45to hire a whole troop of Pennsylvania Dutch people. They can't read. We're going to come outside your studio and we're going to throw slippery noodles. They don't know where they're going. They ride horses. That's the Amish. Oh, it's chicken and dumplings. [ __ ] hacks. I can't imagine. If you're Pennsylvania Dutch and you're just tuning in, I don't mean any of the things I just said. I'm just [ __ ] around. We're talking a lot of [ __ ] We drink a little whiskey. So, the Pennsylvania Dutch and did John Oliver Snoop Dog Neutrauticals, whatever the [ __ ] you call them. This has been fun, dude. I'm I'm having fun. So much fun, man. But I think there's there's a thing that you brought up that I really believe might work. And this is the thing that this Pitman Robertson Act, the the amount of money that goes from the taxes

191:38that helps conservation that goes to wildlife habitat. The amount of money that's generated by that is really substantial. Imagine if we had something similar. It doesn't have to be as much, but if we it was like normal consumables, like if you're looking at things like hunting goods, what percentage of people are doing that? Not that many. You know what percentage of people even buy an ammo? Not that many. It's probably not even close to Can I Can I What's the number in in the I don't know what the number is. Um but I would tell you that part of my work on Pitman Robertson in the past has been to look at a thing called the backpack tax. You ever heard about that? Yeah, that's a they they Is that enacted? Is that It's not currently. They proposed it, right? Yeah. In the late 90s, a senator uh enacted a bill that would do the same

192:32for outdoor goods. And this when I say outdoor goods, I mean there's a $887 billion economy around um outdoor activities. What we what we call non-conumptive outdoor activities, right? Right. You you might call fishing and hunting a consumptive outdoor activity. You might call hiking or ice climbing a which I support fully and totally, right? Non-conumptive. Non-conumptive. The idea is that this this land is all of our collective as a a culture, as a civilization, United States, it's all of ours. And for the sustainability of our state game agencies and the agencies that are that are put forth to manage these uh species in this land, you know, there's the Bureau of Land Management there. I mean, there's the the Forest Service, National Forest Service, there's federal and state agencies that manage this land. They manage the wildlife. all in

193:21trust as we've talked about, all within our model of conservation as we've talked about, all within the funding system that we've talked about. There's this idea that if if a backpack tax, which just means enact the same pitman Robinson taxes, the excise taxes and enact those on all the gear that's sold at say REI and that would be 11% as well. Call it 11%. Whatever it is, tents, coolers, anything, everything. There was legislation in the late 90s um I'll forget the senator that uh the department of interior head and the senator that put it forth that that that called it the backpack tax and said we want to this is it's way there's way more the the economy for outdoor recreation is way bigger than the hunting and fishing economy. Let's call it that. I don't know what the numbers are but I know that it's much bigger exponentially so much more.

194:08Right. And so the idea would be like, hey, the hunting and fishing manufacturers are paying this excise tax on behalf of the public and this is going into the wildlife restoration fund and all the things we've talked about that that why wouldn't we do that also with um you know in the user pays public benefits model with other users that are also using these wild places. They're not using them in a consumptive manner, but they are also consuming them in terms of trails, ice, you know, they're using these places. Yeah, for sure. Um, and so there's a group called the Outdoor Industry Association that was formed around a lot of things, but one of the things was was um an opposition to this backpack tax. Well, what what if a what if there could be some sort of agreement? Like a consumptive tax should be more than a non-conumptive tax. Yeah. Because

195:00a non-conumptive tax, you're not removing a resource, right? You're not taking salmon. You're not killing a deer. You're you are just like I get on a trail camping just having fun. You're not really taking much out. You're just like kind of It' be nice if you put a little in to make sure it's there for everybody. So, let's let's cut it in half. Yeah. The Outdoor Industry Association argues, and again, I'm I'm I tend to think that that they're wrong, but it's this is their argument. hopefully I sum summarize it correctly is that they feel that there's also there's so many taxes on goods and services these days and and we have to move this to the manufacturer side of the coin because that's where this tax comes from right you're you're asking for these taxes to be levied on the manufacturer of the goods not necessarily the public although the

195:47public who purchases the goods are the ones driving you know kind of the the tax itself and so what their argument is more like hey there's so many taxes on the small businesses in the outdoor community there's so many taxes on many of the activities in the in the manufactur taxes why add more taxes right and to some level I agree so I just want to set that up is is the backpack tax has been argued for a long time yeah but here's the point it's like where's that money go if the money goes to the standard things that buying anything you know like if you buy a clock what does your taxes go to if you buy a tent what does your taxes do if if it goes to the same [ __ ] that's one thing but if every time you buy a tent. It goes for habitat renewal. If it goes for wildlife conservation, that's a different that's a different thing.

196:33That's what the Pitman Robertson does. Well, and also and also Yes. Absolutely. And also the duck stamp. When you buy a duck stamp, the money that goes from the duck stamp and the duck stamp is required to hunt water foul in in in our country, right? But we're talking about these people that sell tents, like the camping people. Like, if you're saying that they don't want to participate in this, they they have to look at it this way. Mhm. Like you what if it was just something that contributed to the thing that literally supports your business? Yeah. The [ __ ] are you doing? Yeah. Let's let's let's negotiate. Make it 3%. I hesitate to to to paint the whole industry. The outdoor industry itself is very much um the bu conservation is a buzz word. They're very much environmentally friendly. They're very much want to give back. They have been

197:21hesitant to enact a tax like this in the past. I don't know where it is right now, but in the past they've been hesitant and that's the truth. Yeah. Because they want to make sales. But here's it. It's it's almost like we have to like come to some sort of a reasonable conclusion because like Yeah, of course you want to make money. You want to keep making money. You want to make more money every year. Blah blah blah. You don't [ __ ] make any money if there's no woods. So let's It's a good faith effort. You generate a certain amount of income every year by donating. Everybody agrees donating a small percentage. Let's let's take it back a little bit. Let's make it better for everybody. Let's take it back a little bit too. If in the in the example we gave earlier 1980s hunting populations have been dwindling from I want to say around 14

198:05million to around 11 million give or take any estimate. Even our estimates are are kind of shoddy in the way we gather them. But hunting has been going down. Hunting license sales are a big part of the way we fund state game agencies and other agencies that provide for wildlife management, wildlife biology, and access to state and federal lands. And is that only the hunting licenses or or is Pitman Robertson like buy ammo? Does that go to that as well? It does. So we um we call that the American System of Conservation Funding and it has all those elements in it. And I' I've read, you know, it's confusing because I've read about 17 different things about this that say different percentages, but I've I've read from anywhere from 40% to 80 to 90% of state game agencies are funded by the American system of conservation funding, which

198:54includes the things we've talked about, and that is state game agencies manage these this wildlife, and that's what they do. And so, here's a point to be made. You don't want, as much as I love hunting, you don't want one constituency within a a myriad of user groups to dominate the funding of of these agencies. We need that funding to be sustainable and diverse. We need that funding to come from all kinds of different areas because as have we discovered when the the hunting numbers in our population drop in millions and they recede, we have less money to fund an increasingly expensive endeavor of managing wildlife. Native and non-native game species and non-game species, we have to spend money to manage them. Public land and and private land, we have to spend money to manage wildlife in those corridors. So that's what we when we get back to the

199:51backpack tax itself and and kind of the diversity of funding where we might say also as much as I want the constitu constituency of hunting and hunting and fishing to have a seat at the table, it really can't be one of the only seats at the table. We need to have other people pitching in. And I feel as though the backpack tax is something that should be revisited. I don't want to generalize the Outdoor Industry Association or or companies like Keen or Patagonia that care a lot about the environment, but I do think this is something that they should all publicly address and they should talk about and they should should have a dialogue about because I think it's important. Well, it's interesting. It's like like we were talking about taxes and about the idea of like the Pitman Robertson is like very clear where that money goes.

200:36And if we had that with other things, like if you had like every time you purchased a computer in the United States, you knew that there's a certain percentage that goes to education and we like radically upgraded the school system in this country because of that. Think of the amount of money that could be generated by that if there was a similar 11% style tax to computer. I mean I mean I don't want to diminish people's struggles with like buying equipment and computers and [ __ ] like that but if there was a small percentage the amount of money if it was proportionate to the amount of use right like like the hunting thing like it's 11% not a lot of hunters the computer thing it doesn't have to be 11%. There's so many that would be abusive if it was 11% people would start showing up in [ __ ] per Bentley Rolls-Royces and [ __ ]

201:27Go back to Franklin Dansion, right? Franklin D. Roosevelt. It was an existing excise tax that was funneled into an account to then go to it was like deciding it instead of going to this it would go to this. It wasn't creating a tax out of nothing. I think though the if you look at the sheer amount of money in consumer goods 11% would be bananas. It would give it would give too too much power to whoever's in control about how that money gets distributed. Yeah. Even though there's a shitload of money through hunting and firearms, [ __ ] overall GDP is not 11% of the [ __ ] computer market would be bananas. Computer, electronics, cell phone market. That's too much. I would love to get in a room with with and I have done this through Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, which is a group I I serve on the board for. like get in a

202:16with some really influential politicians and just talk this through and say, "Look, it's not just the politicians. It's the people that pay for them." That's the problem. It's the manufacturers as well cuz that's the thing that really it's the people that make the stuff, the people that generate the finances that [ __ ] sponsor these people to be in office and they have they're beholden to those folks once they get in there. That's that's the big problem because you're dealing with like, you know, a [ __ ] corporation that employs x amount of people, like thousands of people or whatever. Many many locations all over the world. They have all this responsibility. There's a lot of momentum behind it. Raise my hand and say, "Hey, look, man. We're all in this together, [ __ ] We're all in this together. You at the turn of

202:56the century, we had no ducks. We had no deer. That's a wildlife." But it applies to everything. It really does. It applies to everything, right? If you would if you would allow It's It's a value system proposition. It's like Yeah. If we all value a thing in this way, it could be wildlife, it could be computers, it could be roads, it could be anything. But this this discussion like no [ __ ] we might have tapped into something. And this is what I think we might have tapped into. We might have tapped into the idea that a certain percentage of anything that you really enjoy should be donated to help conserve and improve that thing that you enjoy. Whether it's if you like to um go fishing, wetlands. If you like to go duck hunting, wetlands. If you like to uh whatever the [ __ ] you like to do, man. Anything. Whether it's a uh hiking,

203:46you want to go hiking, you know, clean up and making sure that there's uh park rangers that can accept emergency calls and help people when they're stranded. Anything and everything. We should all contribute a certain amount to this and it would enhance the experience and make it more available to everybody which would would enhance everybody's life and it would be barely noticeable to most folks. If you had a 1% tax, just 1% that didn't exist before and now exist, it would have a significant impact. And it has had an impact in the example we're giving which is which is admittedly narrow example. It has had an impact on a very very very important thing for our country that doesn't exist elsewhere. It just doesn't exist elsewhere. The continent of Africa, it it just doesn't exist elsewhere where we're able to say we pay into a system

204:38where everyone in this country, every person that might sit down in this chair would say, "I want there to be elk. I want there to be deer. I want there to be malards, malard ducks. I want there to be wild turkeys. I want there to be bison. I want there to be wild animals. I want to be able to see them at Yellowstone. I want to be able to see them in national forests like the Gallatton National Forest where I live. I want that. This is a universal value. That universal value in turn is supported by the user group who goes out and takes part in the use of that natural resour. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. We we can do that with everything. We could I think we can do that with everything. We do that with a thing called the Land and Water Conservation Fund, which takes offshore oil royalties and puts that in a fund that helps pay for parks and

205:20access and fishing docks and [ __ ] all across this country. Who paid for the BP oil spill? I don't know. Hopefully BP. That one was nuts. No. When you watch that one, you're like, how many millions of gallons every day? What? Where's that go? Where does that go? Certainly doesn't help wildlife. And it's it I think people might be uh hesitate to tell call myself this, but this is the real truth. I'm an environmentalist in in the way that I think. I know. I know you're upset. Who wouldn't be? Who the [ __ ] wouldn't be an envir environmentalist means you want to preserve the thing that keeps you alive, your environment. Everybody's an environmentalist. this idea of conservation and preservation and and and where do we stand and how do we do this and I'm I'm pretty invested for my whole life to to to live in a

206:16place and and put my life into this idea that this complex I go back to my buddy Dr. Various intelligent intervention, man. Intelligent intervention. We have the ability to intervene, right? But we have to agree on what the intelligent choice is. And that's where we don't agree. There's a lot of people that don't think we should make any decisions. And like the California model where you don't do anything to manage predators like mountain lines and they kill all the deer. Like good luck finding a deer in California. It's [ __ ] like like like where I live out here in Austin, there's deer everywhere. You have to be careful when you're driving at night. But, uh, where I used to live in California, we saw a deer. It was a an amazing occurrence. Oh, look. It wasn't in the mouth of a Oh my god, HE'S GETTING DRAGGED AWAY.

207:03HE'S GETTING DRAGGED AWAY BY A PANTHER. TURN THE turn the car around. Yeah, you didn't get that. There's plenty of There's too many of them. I mean, when when a when a mountain line attacks your 5-year-old and then two more show up after the cop shoots them, how many are out there? Are you guys looking? Are you [ __ ] counting them? Too too many. This is a thing that people have when they get locked into ideologies, right? I think I bet that lady when that mountain lion attacked her kid, all of her preconceived notions of what a mountain lion is were out the window cuz she realized, "Oh, Jesus Christ." By being sensitive, kind, caring people, we have allowed monsters to live near our children. Monsters that would eat our children face first. And that's that's your kid by the [ __ ] head, dude. That's when I hang out with vegans and I

207:51talk to people like that. I said, Dr. Robert C. Jones, when I hang out with these people, I understand that the middle ground is the strongest place. There's there's so much of their ideology that I agree with and so much of of without knowing it, my ideology they agree with. In the middle is the [ __ ] place where wildlife the complex wildlife biology and management happens. And it's on the polls where it doesn't happen. We got to wrap this up. But before we wrap this up. Yeah. How does that bear story end? Is that it? Yeah. The bear uh leaves and goes to eat that elk carcass. How close were you at the closest time? 80 yards. Toward death. How many seconds would it take for a bear to sprint at you from 80 yards? Two. Do you think you'd have time to pull the gun? Well, we did a whole thing with Clay Nukem. If you look on the old mediator

208:40YouTube where we tried to figure out how quickly you could draw your bear spray or your pistol. Not so quick. Not so quickly. Not so quick. I probably would have gotten mauled. Um, but again, that's the reality of the world in which we live. Joseph, that's a nice thing to say. If you don't get mauled, if you do get mauled, you should say, "I should take up roller skating." Yeah. If you don't get mauled, YOU'RE LIKE, "AH." IF YOU DON'T GET MAULED, LIKE, I am going roller skating from here on out. I'm going to take up crochet. Like, if you got mauled and you had the opportunity to not get mauled, you're like, "Yeah, I'm going to do something else. I'm going to keep my face." Yeah. Keep your chest cavity intact. I'm going to keep my testicles in the uh scrotum. Yes, Ben O'Brien. You're the [ __ ] Thank you very much. Love you, buddy. Love you, too.

209:23Thank you for having me as always. Every time I come here, I'm a fan of the show. I'm a fan of you. I don't I'm a fan of you, too. I'm not going to keep saying it, but it's true. Do another podcast, [ __ ] All right.