Rick Baker

00:00Here we go. In 3, 2, 1. Rick Baker, ladies and gentlemen. How are you, sir? Hey, I'm great, Joe. Everybody's been saying on my Instagram I should do this podcast for ages, so. Well, I'm glad they listened or you listened, rather. I've been a fan of yours forever, man. I was a huge Star Wars fan when I was a kid and you inspired me when I was young, I really wanted to be a makeup artist. I wanted to do special effects and the kind of stuff that you do. Oh, I had no idea. Yeah, man. Um I think it was probably Star Wars that kicked it off for me cuz I like many kids A lot of people today, you know, we're so removed with first VHS and then DVDs and laser discs and now streaming, it's so easy to watch movies, but when Star Wars came out, we would go see it over and over and over again. It was like a little contest between a lot of the kids that I went to school with. And I think I saw

00:47it 13 times while it was out in the movie theater, but I became fascinated I've always been fascinated with comic books. I always wanted to be a comic book illustrator and I I always loved like like those fantasy novels, like creepy and eerie, you know, those those graphic novels, but I really became fascinated with special effects and particularly makeup after your work. Uh well, you know, it's kind of the same thing for me. I mean, I you know, I I grew up in I was born in 1950, you know, I grew up in front of a TV, but it was a little black and white one, you know, and and there was always the monster movies on Saturdays, you know, and or Sundays and that just stuff just hit a chord with me and I just said I have to do this, you know. When did you What was the first thing that you did? First first ever makeup kind of thing I did? Well, I mean, you know, I was I'm an only child. My

01:40mom wasn't supposed to have kids cuz she had a bad heart and stuff and and but they wanted children and and uh but I was very shy. I I'm I stayed in my bedroom. I couldn't talk to an adult and stuff like that. Yeah. The very first thing I you know, I got interested in makeup and I got some just white grease paint and black grease paint and smeared it on my face and just with a layer of grease paint on my face when I was looking in the mirror, it wasn't little Ricky Baker anymore and I could do things that I couldn't do without this smeared on my face, you know. Wow. And it just it it helped me overcome my shyness, but I mean, it it started with that, but I mean, I but I was I wanted to do something more, you know, so I ended up making I made my first mask, I think, when I was 13. Um and it was a Curse of Frankenstein Frankenstein. And I did that one mainly because I

02:31thought I could copy that one and make it look close enough cuz it's it's there's some crudeness to that makeup. I've I've actually at first didn't like it, but I like it now, you know. I mean, it's when you find out how the film industry works and and poor Philip Leakey, who did that makeup, had like a week to prep, you know, and and no money, so it it I forgive some of the faults with it. Well, it's crazy when you stop and think about the earliest versions of makeup in movies, like special effects style makeup in movies, you know, you go back to like Nosferatu was probably one of the very earliest, right? I mean, they really didn't have anything to go with. There wasn't anything to copy. They kind of had to make it up. And I mean, you know, the thing is that Nosferatu is such a I mean, it's a great film. It's a great film. Still to this day. Yeah, and and the look, you know, I

03:18mean, it shouldn't work by all you know, it's like a big hook nose, you know, and but it works great and and but yeah, it's same thing. I mean, Lon Chaney had nothing to work with, you know. Right. Yeah. and and he did to this day some of the still the my favorite makeups and some of the best makeups and I think the limitations in a lot of ways made the makeups work better, you know, I mean, now we can add so much stuff and I find that happens so much now like with that Face Off show and stuff. Mhm. People it's more like about how much can you pile on someone's face, you know, but sometimes the most effective makeups are just the tiniest little bit of things that you do and and let a lot of the humanity show through. Like Lon Chaney in Phantom of the Opera? Great makeup. Yeah. Yeah, it's a terrific and Chaney was just brilliant anyway, you know, and

04:08great at making scary faces. That's how I learned to make scary faces watching Chaney movies. Yeah, and he's another one that was like there was not much to for him to go on. It wasn't He was kind of like a pioneer. Yeah. For sure. And I mean, again, like I said, it's still some of my favorite makeups. That and you know, Jack Pierce's Frankenstein's monster. Yes. Again, crude materials, you know, uh And you you know, it was and you know, poor Boris Karloff, what he had to endure. I mean, that isn't isn't None of the makeups he did on Boris were comfortable, you know, with cotton and spirit gum and collodion collodion. I don't know if you know you might know collodion just cuz of your fight background kind of stuff, but it's a a plastic they used to use it to close up boxers' wounds and stuff. Ah. Um it's like kind of this liquid plastic, but it smells horrible and you know, and to be

04:56working around someone's eyes with this fumes of stuff and Yeah. Yeah, I mean, he had to put up with a lot. So, it's kind of like a glue? Yeah, it's a kind of a liquidy plasticky stuff. Can you pull up a video of Nosferatu? What year was that? 20 I don't know what. 1922? 2022? That's crazy. Yeah. You stop and think about that, you know, film itself had only been how old then? Yeah, not very. Not very. No, but yeah, it's See if you can get a video of it. Yeah. His it just the whole thing about the way he moved, like everything, it was so creepy and interesting. Well, that old film, I mean, it's just beautifully shot. I mean, so many of the silent films, I mean, the photography is so incredible, you know. I mean, I wonder how what they did with the fingers. Like how did they get his fingers? Well, those I think those are just his hands at this point, you know,

05:42I mean, later I mean, in in like the John Barrymore Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde Mhm. uh you know, they I remember reading in Famous Monsters, which was again my like my Bible, you know. Yes. Did you get Famous Monsters at all? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I did. Oh, yeah, you said creepy and eerie and all that. Um you know, they they said, you know, John Barrymore did the whole transformation without makeup, you know, and it's not true. You know, he's got finger extensions on. He's got like a pointed back of a head, you know, and stuff. Uh but yeah, it's Nosferatu, brilliant. So, what did they do for his ears, do you know? Well, I'm not sure what they're made out of. Same with the bald head. I mean, I know rubber existed then. I mean, you can kind of see I mean, he's got I I think it's probably just like a slip rubber, which is like a you know, how what we Halloween masks are made out of. Ears

06:29and and bald head and nose, you Yeah, some sort of prosthetic nose, right? Yeah, and those big pointy teeth, but again, I mean, if you if you really kind of analyze it and look at it, you you think this is stupid, it'll never work, you know, and but it works great. And I also think it's because Max Schreck was great, you know, he does some really cool things with his hands and stuff. Well, if you didn't if nothing like this existed and it was dark out and you saw a guy like that in your house, you would freak out. Well, yeah, that's I'd freak out if that's somebody in my house anyway. Yeah, someone smiling would freak you out. Yeah, it's just it's such a an an interesting time capsule when you look at these films when you look at something like like Nosferatu from 1922 and then you look at what we're doing today with CGI, in a lot of ways, I mean, I'm not a fan of CGI. I'm not a

07:16fan of it in terms of like for monsters It just seems everything seems fake. There's The suspension of disbelief is higher than if I'm like what you did with American Werewolf in London, one of the one of the more brilliant things about it was the special effects and the makeup were fantastic, but they were these really quick scenes. It was like you saw it for a second, it was burned into your eyes and then and then it vanished. Yeah, what what John Landis said to me is that I'm I'm never going to really show the werewolf for more than a couple seconds. Mhm. And I hardly even want to show it then, you know. Right. And what was great about werewolf working on that film with John Landis was he you know, said, "You're the expert. I want a four-legged hound from hell." I wanted to make a biped werewolf, you know, we argued about it and it was basically, you know, he wins, he's the

08:01director, you know, but he says, "Four-legged hound from hell, make it." And I did. I mean, the first sculpture was what the final thing became. Same with everything in it, the Nazi demons, all that stuff. Mhm. You know, cut to you know, like when I did the Wolf Man, I mean, I did thousands of designs and and you know, all these producers are going, "Well, maybe if you do one between this and that and do one between this and that and or maybe this paw should be over here, you know." Ugh. And that kind of stuff just is so soul sucking, you know, and it's one of the reasons I retired, you know, I just And but to this day, I mean, like on the on the cover of my my book is sculpture from uh of the one of the Nazi demons from American Werewolf. And and a number of people said this is like one of the greatest designs ever, you know, and this kind of stuff and it's

08:45people who are production designers and stuff. And it was it's pure Rick Baker without interference, you know, and and that's what I thought the industry would be. Right. Which it isn't for the most part, you know. Well, it's just everybody wants to it's the same with comedy, it's the same with it seems like it's the same with everything. Everybody wants to put their greasy little fingerprints on it and and say, "That's The reason why his nose is like that was me. Yeah. I I told Rick Baker, you don't know what you're doing. Yeah. to make the nose wider. Yeah, I know, I know. Yeah, that's ugh. And it's you know, it's watered watered down the designs, you know. Yeah. Like I said, it's soul sucking. I mean, if and when you know, you know, sculptures take a long time and you know, you you sculpt every pore and every wrinkle and everything, you know, I have like magnifying glasses I

09:25wear when I'm doing this and after you spend, you know, hours and and sleepless nights doing it and then some guy who doesn't know what he's talking about comes in and says, "Well, you know, why don't you do this?" Well, they're disturbing your artistic vision. And it's just it's it's I mean, when someone contributes money and they're the ones who get to decide whether things get made or not made, you know, just they think they're artistic as well. Yeah. It becomes a disaster. And it's the thing, you know, I mean, when you see a movie or TV show and there's 47 producers on the thing, you know, used to be they were show people and it was a guy you know, for example, on Gremlins 2, Mike Finnell, who was the producer, who came from Roger Corman school of filmmaking, you know, so he really checks every penny. And but he was a guy I could go to and he'd go, "What He He would look at

10:11everything." He'd go, "Why is it Why is this Why are you buying this?" And you'd explain it to him and he'd go, "Okay, that makes sense." And there'd be a person you could talk to and you could get an answer from. It now there's, like I said, 47 producers and nobody will commit to anything, you know? And then it's it drove me crazy. And you know, I mean, I It was I I did makeup because I loved it and I I was I feel so fortunate that my hobby became my profession and I did well and got awards for it and stuff and for something I would do for free, you know, but it got to the point where I I I was just becoming a bitter old man because of all this and I just said, "I have to retire and I want to make things for myself while I still can." You know, I'm almost 69 years old. And, you know, having trouble with joints and vision and all kinds of stuff, you know, and

11:00and I I'd be pissed off if I was working on some movie for some producer that would didn't know what he was talking about and and it screwed up my work, you know. Right. Mess with your head. Yeah. Yeah, so it's time to just, you know, make my own thing and I'm I'm loving it, you know. Like what kind of stuff are you doing now? Oh, I do all kinds of stuff. I mean, I I I still do makeups, you know, for fun. Um I've actually cast up some of my I I saved a lot of molds. I cast up some of the old Star Wars stuff. I have the molds and and and stuff and I do animations. I I I make models. I I make little movies. I But you're just doing it purely for the joy of it now. painting and sculpting. It's just like it was when I was a kid. You know, my My bedroom was my my workshop, you know, I um and it, you know, I'm surprised I'm still alive, you know, I was I had a

11:47a bunch of toxic chemicals in the same room that I slept, you know, and but it's, you know, it's what I've done since I was a kid. It's how I have fun. I entertain myself, you know, and and I like I said on my Instagram, everybody's going, you know, I thought you retired. And I said, "I retired from the film industry. I didn't retire from being a creative guy. I mean, this is who I am. This is what I do. It's how I have fun." That's awesome. You know, as as much as the process was probably annoying with the Wolf Man, the end result was cool. I really loved how you did it and you made it old school. It was kind of like almost like the original Wolf Man, but like re you know, redone. Yeah, well, I was, you know, I'm a fan, you know, and and you know, and I think it's I think that, too. I mean, people who love what they're doing and come up from a fanboy uh point of view, you know, it's uh

12:33And it's something I think the producers don't understand because they're all about making as much money as they can and they think everybody's trying to cheat them out of money and stuff, you know, it's like There's so many times I I would say, you know, "Why did you hire me, you know, if you don't you're not letting me do what I do, you know?" And it's like, "Well, you're the best." And I go, "Well, let me do what I do. Let me be the best. Yeah. Have some faith, you know? I mean, you're making it so I can't. And The Wolf Man was a case like that. I mean, it was a battle through the whole thing and that was one of these things with thousands of designs and change this one little thing. But I thought that, you know, in the end the original director left right before we started filming. They brought somebody else in and I just said, "We don't have an approved design. I'm

13:10making what I thought I should have made 7 months ago. I did a test on myself that basically looked like that. I We don't have time to screw around. The new director isn't going to have a choice." Which I don't think he was really happy about, but in the end, I mean, I thought you know, that the movie was the closest thing to an old school horror movie in a long time. It was, but it also had the feel like a lot of people with it. It felt like it was missing an individual or singular vision. Well, it's every movie now. Yes. God, that's so frustrating to hear. Well, I think Tarantino still pulls it off. Oh, yeah, yeah, no, I mean, He's one of the rare guys that still you you watch a movie and go, "Jesus Christ." Like the that he gets away with. That's a Tarantino movie. Like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. That is Tarantino movie. Like there's no Like if you told if I saw that movie and you

13:54said, "Who made that movie?" I'd be, "Fucking Tarantino made that movie. If they didn't, they're going to jail." It's like that's He's just He gets away with so much and his movies seem like his movies. And he's a fanboy, you know what I mean? I mean, he's he knows movies really well and and no, I mean, thank God for him, you know, I mean, I really enjoy his films. Me, too. I met Quentin. I was at a film festival in Sitges, Spain. It's a science fiction fantasy film festival as a guest. And um I I was there. I That's where I met Peter Jackson. We actually He sat next to me at a screening and we became friends and and he had his movie Braindead. Have you ever seen that? No. Oh, it's really good. It's really fun. It's really gory, but funny gory. Um and really clever. Um But anyways, When did he make that? Well, this was like in the '90s or something, I guess. I

14:43I'm so real bad with dates, you know. But anyways, we were sitting and talking and and Freddie Francis, who was a director and a director of photography for did a lot of Hammer movies and and Stuart Freeborn was there and we're sitting in this thing and there's big kind of goofy kid walking around, you know, and and I thought he was just like a fan. So I said, "Come on over and sit down with us, you know." And we started talking and go, "What are you doing here?" And you know, he was obviously like an American. And he goes, "I have a film here, you know." And it was Reservoir Dogs. And and we went to see it and I actually left in the scene where they're torturing the cop. It's funny people think I like gory gory stuff, you know, cuz I've done it in films, but real stuff and if it's really intensely done on a film like that was. I mean, I thought he was going to let this guy

15:27light this guy on fire. At that He's where he's got the cop in the chair at one point and I said, "I can't I don't want to see this." So I left and so did Wes Craven. What? And yeah, and we went and he got so jazzed by that, That he got got to get out of Wes Craven couldn't take my movie and Rick Baker couldn't take my movie. That's so cool, you know. Uh That's awesome. Oh, no, it was it was And that was a great thing. I mean, like I said, I That was my introduction to Peter Peter Jackson and we became fast friends. We kind of had the same background. It's like you what you said to me about wanting to be a makeup artist and reading those things. I know so many people like that, you know, you know, Danny Elfman was was said that to me. Uh John Fogerty likes that like that stuff. I don't know if they wanted to be a makeup artist, but he really likes like

16:16that stuff, you know. Um uh Slash, you know, a lot of a lot of these different people, you know, and they went into rock and roll instead of that, you know, and uh but you know, I I never veered off that path. I mean, from from age 10, this is what I wanted to do and I didn't have a plan B and fortunately it worked because I I grew up very lower middle class, you know, I wasn't in the didn't know anybody in the film industry, you know, and when I finally met somebody, I was um 13. And Universal Studios just started their tour and I talked my parents. They said, you know, you're going to be a teenager. It's a special birthday, you know, what can we do, you know? And I said uh "Can we go to Universal on the Universal tour, you know?" And in my head I was going to hop off the tram and run into the makeup department and they were going to hire me, you know.

17:04But on the way I knew that um Are you familiar with Don Post masks, the Don Post Studios? They did the Universal classic monster masks. They were in the back of Famous Monsters and stuff. But Okay. Uh but they did these really high quality masks that were like $35 in the '60s, which was way beyond anything I could ever afford, but everybody every kid monster kid coveted those masks, you know. He uh his studio was in Burbank near Universal and I had seen him on TV talking about how he was buying Universal. So when we got close, I asked my dad if he could maybe look in the phone book and maybe call up Don Post and we could go visit and they were very gracious, you know, my dad said, you know, my son Ricky likes monsters. He makes masks and we're in close by. Can you come by? And they said, "Sure, you know." Gave me the whole tour. Wow. Yeah, and on the wall in Don Post Studios was a

17:56picture of Bob Burns, who I'd read about in my monster magazines. He He's a collector and has done some makeup. He had a mummy suit and a gorilla suit that he made and and had his phone number and I wrote it down and uh I again being I was still pretty shy and I got my dad to call this guy who I read about in monster magazines and he was the first guy I ever met in any anywhere related to the industry. And again, very Bob and Kathy, you know, welcomed me into their home. He told me, you know, he showed me how to do a scar out of a cut out of mortician's wax and where to get the stuff at Max Factor and and it just was like one of the first people to show me stuff and he worked at the local CBS station and introduced me to the news the guy who did the newsmen, the makeup artist who made up the newscasters. And he was like blown away by the stuff that I did. He goes, "I'm going to take

18:50you to the makeup union." And I was like 15 at this point. And so I went to the makeup union with a box full of heads and masks and make pictures of makeups I did. Again, naively thinking that they were going to say, "Start tomorrow. You don't need a job." And the business rep of the union said, you know, "Give up, kid. You're never going to get in." Uh you know, that you have to be born into the industry. It was a real At that time At that time there was a lot of nepotism. I mean, there's still That bad? Yeah. But he says, you know, "If you were a Westmore, you know, you would get a union card with your birth certificate, you know." But but nobody knows you know know anybody, you're not going to He said, "First of all, you have to be 21 to serve an apprenticeship." I was 15. He said the there's going to there's only a few apprenticeships and they're going to go to a Westmore or to a a

19:37Bauer or you know, somebody who was a name makeup artist or a relative of one of those. Right. And he also said the kind of makeups that I wanted to do, which were monsters and weird stuff, he said those jobs are few and far between and most of the time you're going to be mopping sweat off of some actress. Mhm. And it was kind of like Trying to crush your dreams. Well, he kind of it kind of did, but it also was like, you know what? you. I'm going to show you. Yes. And and I did. You definitely did. I mean, boy was he wrong. Yeah. He turned out to be the greatest of all time. Yeah, well, I don't know about that. I think Dick Smith is the greatest of all time, but uh Well, you have to think that. I can't believe you didn't get the book. I'm sorry. I'm going to make sure you get it. Well, there's a There's a picture of me at Wow. That was from a newspaper article

20:24in my local newspaper when I I I think I was a sophomore in high school. And that was the first time they called me Rick Baker Monster Maker. Ah. Um yeah, that was That's from high school? That was yeah, I was think I was the third I know I must have been like 14 or 15 or 16, something like that. Wow, man, you were committed to the path. Oh, I mean, my bedroom had it was all masks and you know, the Did you ever do the Aurora model kits? Yes, I did. Yeah, I know. I I mean, that was one of the big regrets that I when I I got married I thought, well, I got to Grow up. Yeah, you know, which I got rid of the models and and I regretted it ever since. Those were so cool. You could paint them. Oh, yeah. I remember those. I think I had a I think I had a Creature from the Black Lagoon one. Oh, yeah. Did they make a Creature from the Black Lagoon they did. Yeah. Yeah, that was that was

21:12an interesting film, right? Because that was a that was a unique turn on makeup where they took this guy and they kind of put him in sort of like a scuba suit slash reptilian thing. That was one of the cooler Oh, it's still makeup works for the time. It still is. It's still one of the best men in the suit Yeah. Really well done. Pull that up, Jamie. Creature from the Black Lagoon. That was like what was it? 50s? Yeah. And it that was the Westmore regime Jack Pierce who did Frankenstein, the Wolf Man, all the classic stuff was used old school techniques during the time when other people were doing foam rubber. Mhm. A new regime came in Universal and all of a sudden Jack got a pink slip, you know, you're you're out. You know, these movies There it is. Yeah, very cool. Yeah, go go with the larger one in the lower left corner, Jamie, where you see the whole body.

21:58Yeah. I mean, what a cool design, right? It is and it was designed by a woman Millicent Patrick who she nailed it. She did, but she didn't get a lot of I mean, Bud Westmore's regime got the credit for it. But when the movie came out when some Look at that. Yeah, when some publicist found out that a woman designed it it was they did a whole kind of Beauty and the Beast campaign and apparently Bud Westmore was furious, you know, he goes, "It's my work. It's you know." Oh, no. And he was he was famous for posing with other people's stuff, you know, I mean, very fine sculptor named Chris Mueller sculpted the the creature's head anyways and I think he did the abdomen and some of the parts and and he also sculpted the Metaluna Mutant from This Island Earth, you know, that big brain kind of Oh, okay. Yeah. And there's a there's some pictures of Bud Westmore

22:46holding a really inappropriate sculpture tool next to the sculptures Oh, no. And from what I heard he would uh whenever the publicist would come to take pictures he would give everybody a day off or the afternoon off and then he would go up to the lab and pose with that stuff. Oh, Christ. Yeah. I hate hearing stories like that. It's so disappointing, you know, when you want to think that all these people who take credit for all that work, they did the work. Yeah, and and I tried to do that and it's funny because, you know, so many people I mean I never wanted to be businessman, you know, and and I never even thought about that aspect of it, you know, that I'd have to have employees and all that, you know. Me neither. And I hated that part and and I mean, that was something I didn't care for, you know, and I resisted being a businessman. I didn't have I wasn't listed anywhere. My company

23:31wasn't listed. I didn't have letterhead. I didn't have business cards. How the hell I I don't have didn't have an agent, you know. How the hell I ever was successful I don't know other than that fact that I worked hard and my work was pretty good, you know. Yeah, fortunately it all worked out for me like I said. Certainly did. What was your first gig? Like what was the first first professional gig that you got where it was like, holy I'm getting paid to do makeup. Well, I mean, the first time I ever got paid actually to do anything I did a a makeup for a stage actor who wanted to be old and uh I charged him $75 and um which was, you know, more money than I ever gotten from anything before. You know, like I said came up with a number in your head? Yeah, well, I kind of somehow figured it out, you know, but uh Anyways, I I I did these pieces for him and

24:24he lived off that Pasadena Freeway that one that has a weird right angled off ramps, you know, and my dad drove me there cuz I couldn't I didn't drive at the time and and he actually had a makeup kit and had a some hair pieces in it and a bunch of stuff and he said, "You know, I will trade you this instead of giving me $75 I'll give you this makeup case and with full of this stuff." And I was like, yeah. That's really cool, you know, but my dad wanted to teach me, you know, responsibilities and stuff and this was around the time I I think I was like 16 and was going to try to drive and he goes, "Your my insurance is going to go up and what you have to do is you have to get that money and you have to give me the money to for the rate of the insurance that's going up." So I was like, "Oh, man, I really want this makeup kit." But I mean, I had amazing parents who I

25:16mean, I wouldn't have been I wouldn't be who I am if it wasn't for them. I mean, That's cool. They supported me in my crazy decision to to make monsters for a living. Well, they must have been so happy when it paid off though. Yeah, I was glad that they lived long enough to see that and I got to bring my parents to the Oscars a few times. Yeah, and and you know, they were they were very proud and and uh and you know, it was funny cuz I mean, I had like my mom's brother, my uncle would, you know, say stuff like, you know, "When is Ricky going to stop doing this silly stuff and do something he can make a living at, you know, and when is he going to grow up?" Oh, those people. But you know, my dad basically never grew up and I knew I never was going to, you know. What was your dad? What did he do for a living? Well, he did a bunch of different things. He he was a high school dropout

25:58because he he had to help his family, his his mother and father pay bills and he had a variety of not very good jobs. He worked at Sears as a salesman. He drove a truck. He did stuff. But he was always he he was very creative and it was kind of held down in his lifetime, you know, don't do that. You can't Right. You know, do something you can make a living at. Be serious. And because of that I benefited from that. He supported the creativity and when I I think I was a sophomore in high school he decided he wanted to try to make a living as an artist and we lived on my mom's bank teller salary for a number of years. He hardly made any money at all. But he was happy, you know, and and he because I mean, like I said, he he supported my creativity and he was really my first teacher. He he sho- showed me what you could do with paint. He knew a little bit about sculpture, you know.

26:49Uh he he was also a fan of monster movies, you know, and he you know, he saw you know, the Fredric March Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde when it came out, you know, and told me all about it and it was a movie that they didn't have on TV that I really wanted to see, you know, and he said uh when he saw it in the theaters, you know, he would have had to hide his eyes or hide by the seat, you know, and I so wanted to see that and and he also said, you know, War of the Worlds, the George Pal Oh, yeah. you know, go that was so cool and the sound effects were great and and I that was never on either and when I was in the seventh grade, I think it was, I uh decided to get on the student council for the main reason, this was my plan, was I suggested that we could raise money for the school by having showing movies after school. We could rent 16 mm movie 16 mm movies and show them and charge admission

27:38and I basically just went through all the movies I hadn't seen that I wanted to see and and got those, you know, and there were maybe four or five people that showed up to see them, but I was happy. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. What was the first film that you did special effects for? was a film called The Octo-Man and it's kind of a cult classic because it's such a crappy movie, you know. It was shot in 10 days at it all at Bronson Canyon in in Griffith Park. What year was this? nine Let's see, I graduated from high school in 1969 and I went to two years to a junior college. Uh 69 70 71, I guess it was. So you went from that to Star Wars only like five or six years later, right? Yeah, something like that. Yeah. That's crazy. King Kong and and all that stuff I did. Yeah. Played There's the Octo-Man. YEAH, OCTO-MAN. I DIDN'T design it. Oh my goodness. Look at that thing.

28:30Yeah, but I mean, this was I was a full-time student. I had six weeks and like I think a thousand dollars to make this suit and uh so I after school I and I got my a friend The very first job I ever had actually this in this again happened because of my dad when he was a truck driver uh delivering plumbing supplies he went to the wrong building and the building he went into was called Clokey Productions and they made Gumby and Davey and Goliath stop motion animation. Mhm. Which I did stop motion as well. Big Ray Harryhausen fan, you know. Um and for some reason I grew up in Covina, which is east of you know, LA like 30 or 40 miles and wasn't and there wasn't anything film related out there, but for some reason Clokey's was out there. Um I think because it was cheaper rent. And he I I was my my quarter a week allowance when I found a place I could buy rubber it was like eight

29:27almost nine dollars for a quarter rubber and you know, it took me a lot of weeks and a lot of mowing lawns and a lot of stuff to save up that money. I said, "I need a I need a job." So I I didn't have a car. We only had one car in the family and you know, I went to any place I could walk to supermarkets, you know, bus boys, all that stuff. Nobody wanted me and my dad said, I remember this place, and they did stop motion, and you did stop motion, you know, maybe." So, I went there with my box of stuff, you know, and and it was summer vacation between my junior and senior year high school. And they said, "Start tomorrow." Got paid minimum wage, which I think was, you know, a dollar 25 or something at the time. But that place was like a magnet for any weird kid or any kind of was like a stop motion fan. Any stop motion person would show up there at one point or another.

30:15And I met this guy named Doug Beswick, who was a few years older than me. And we became, again, fast friends. You know, he read Famous Monsters. He was a Ray Harryhausen fan. And Doug, when I did this this Octaman film, Doug had a a little workshop, and we did it in his workshop, and we did it together. Wow. But yeah, it was a it was a real introduction to the film industry because it was the very first day's filming of filming in in Bronson Canyon, Griffith Park. We show up. We went in Doug's '57 Chevy. Had Octaman in the back seat, you know, and and we show up there and looking around, and there's nobody there. And I go, "What the hell?" You know, so and this is, you know, before cell phones and all that So, we'd have to go we went back down the hill down Bronson Canyon to like there was a market there, and we got a payphone, called the production office.

31:04And it was like, "Oh yeah, we pushed one day. We just forgot to tell you." You know, I was like A movie called the Octaman. You forgot to tell the people who are making the Octaman, the title character of the movie, that you weren't filming, you know. And it was also, I mean, they That's a perfect introduction to the movie industry, though. Oh, it was. And and I learned that that, you know, you can't believe anything they tell you. You know, I mean, the it was designed by somebody else, and uh I got this job handed down through people I met at Clockies. It was going to be stop motion at one point. They decided that was too expensive. They're going to make a suit. And first thing I did was a little maquette. And uh A little what? Maquette. That's a small sculpture of the design. But I said there's because he had they they tried to figure out how they could do eight tentacles on

31:49a man, you know, and his feet kind of like turned into tentacles. And it kind of split off and into a back tentacle, but I said I think they look like elf shoes and it was not a good way for me to join the two things together. And and it's like, "Kid, don't worry about it. There's only going to be one shot of the Octaman in the movie where you actually see it. The rest of the time is just going to be a shadow or a glimpse, you know, but we'll have a money shot where you can, you know, make sure it looks great." The movie starts out with a close-up of his feet, you know, basically, you know. And and, you know, it was It was a real introduction. I I thought it was going to be like working on eight millimeter millimeter movies like I did as a kid, you know, everybody just jumps in and we're we're making a movie. Let's do it, you know. Right. Yeah, wasn't that.

32:34The DP, the director of photography, because I had long hair and Doug had long hair, he called us the girls. This was at a time when he had long hair was, you know, "Get the girls to get their silly monster suit out and, you know, and then But we there was a If you can believe this, there's the Octaman was written by the guy that was the writer of Creature from the Black Lagoon. And he also wrote It came from Outer Space. So, it was basically those two scripts combined with with ecology thrown in. And he We, you know, it was like there's this day where the instead of in, you know, in the creature they they put a log across the the lagoon and they can't get out, you know, here it was a log across the street, and they're driving a Winnebago and they can't get out, you know. They get out to try to get the log out, and they they open the Winnebago door and the Octaman's in

33:28there, and he knocks a guy down, and then they supposed to the other guy supposed to pick up a log and throw it at the Octaman, and I go, you know, "Where's the prop log that we're going to use?" And and and, you know, he goes, "What's that? It's that." And I go, "That's it's a tree limb, you know. I go, that's that's going to hurt the guy in the suit, and it's going to hurt the suit, you know." And I go, and we we're going to rehearse this, right? He goes, "No, we don't have time to rehearse it." And I go, "What When he the Octaman's supposed to bend over and pick up the Pier Angeli, who was the female lead who killed herself after this movie. Can tell you what how good the movie was, you know. So, when he goes to pick her up, let's cut there because if you cut, I can wrap the tentacles around her and it'll look more like he's holding her, you know. So, anyways,

34:09they start filming without rehearsing. Octaman opens the door, knocks a guy down, guy picks up a log, throws it at the Octaman, hits him, rips the suit. He goes walking over and he's virtually blind. He's looking out of two little holes out this far away, you know. It's it's a real claustrophobic suit. The poor guy, Reed Morgan, who played the Octaman, was great to deal with, but it was very hard suit to wear. Goes to pick up Pier Angeli. Nobody says cut, so he picks her up. So, walking around, the guy who he knocked on the ground is laying on the ground spread eagle. He ends up stepping right on his nuts. Falls over backwards, throws Pier Angeli up against against the Winnebago. She's crying, says he wants her mother. The other guy's holding his nuts. You know, the other guy broke his hand cuz the log fell on his hand. And everybody's screaming. I'm going, "You ripped my suit."

34:56And we lost a day out of our 10-day shooting schedule. So, Harry Essex, who was the director and writer, uh was tearing pages out of the script like this. And he just we don't need this. We don't need this. We don't need this. And then when they tried to make a movie out of it, it made no sense. I mean, I think the the first 20 minutes are stock footage of, you know, in the beginning there was nothing, and then, you know, then there was slime, and then, you know, the whole I can't wait to watch it. Oh, no, it's it's there's a I think it's in public domain now. I think it's on YouTube, but there's a Blu-ray out of it as well. I might have to fire up a joint and watch that one. Now, when you when you look back on that, you mean, it's got to be kind of even though it sounds like a cluster it seems like it's kind of a fun memory as well because that was where it started.

35:40It was. You you got to see how much nonsense there is in the movie industry, but you also got a chance to get going. Yeah, and and I got, you know, we we came up with a way to do this because we couldn't it's a foam rubber suit, and foam rubber has to be baked in an oven, and we didn't have a big oven. We didn't have the means, so we we came up with a clever solution. And it's what I had to do so many times in films, do things that people hadn't done before on a budget and schedule, you know, and and try to figure out, and that's part of the fun, you know. But what was cool about the Octaman, the male lead was Kerwin Mathews, who was Sinbad in the Seventh Voyage of Sinbad. Which again, Ray Harryhausen film, and I was a big fan of, you know, so one of the first things I had to do, there's a scene where the Octaman's tentacles supposed to creep through this cave opening, and they basically

36:29wadded up some tar paper, and I stood behind the tar paper in Bronson Caves and stuck my hand in this tentacle and did did this, and when Kerwin walked by, I said super dynamation, which is what Ray Harryhausen's technique he called for a few films, and he said, "Oh, you know about that." You know, so I thought that was really cool. My kids found out about Harryhausen from Monsters Inc. Uh-huh. And they were like, "Who's that? Who's Harryhausen?" And I said, "Well, he's the guy that made all the early monster movies." And so then we sat down and we watched King Kong together, and they were scared at first. They're like, "Oh my god, I'm scared." But they started laughing when they saw King Kong. motion, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's it's today in comparison to, you know, even comparison to your version of King Kong when you could, you know, make it mechanized, and, you know, it's just

37:16it's it's amazing when you think about how far we came. But, you know, the yes, the stop motion, and and Harryhausen didn't animate on King Kong. He did Mighty Joe Young. But King Kong was what inspired him. That was Willis O'Brien and and Pete Peterson who were the animators on that, but He did the What was the the one with Medusa? Did he do that one? Uh Harryhausen, yeah. Clash of the Titans. Clash of the Titans, right. That was him, right? Well, again, and Ray was a one-man show, you know, in stop motion, you know, it's 24 frames a second. You move all himself? All himself. And when you're animating seven skeletons in Jason and the Argonauts, there's seven skeletons fighting seven guys. Right. He did all that himself? Himself. And I became I became friends with Ray, and and I would say to him and and this was during the time when computer stuff was

37:59starting out, you know, and you know, his movies were $50,000 movies, you know. You know, the whole budget of the movie, you know, not just the effects in the early ones that he did, you know. And I said, "You know, it doesn't it piss you off that now they get millions of dollars, and there's hundreds of people working on stuff that you did by yourself, you know?" And Well, they can never take away his legacy, though. You know, even though he did it all but he him he was not just a groundbreaker, but he's the guy. When you think about stop stop motion films and and horror films, he's the guy that you think of. And you pull up Jason and the Argonauts skeleton scene, I can't believe he did that all himself cuz that's a very very detailed and intricate scene. No, cuz you have to match what they're doing. I mean, and, you know, you're in a room by yourself, and, you know, moving a

38:47you know, fraction of an inch a puppet at a time, you know, and it takes forever, you know, and I mean, having if you've never done stop motion, you can't appreciate it. Oh my god, what year was this? Uh I'm not sure exactly. And look, they pop out of the ground. Oh, it's it's great Bernard Herrmann music in this, you know, he always had the terrific scores in his in his films as well, you know. And again, he was a fan. He was a fanboy who who made a living doing something that he loved, you know. And imagine being the actors and having to sort of respond to nothing. this. Yeah. To these skeletons that are popping out of the ground with shields and swords. Which aren't there. Which aren't there. which, you know, came, you know, months later, Yeah. Okay, you're seeing the skeleton now. You're scared. He's going to take your soul. Well, Ray would kind of direct those scenes because most

39:38directors don't know what to do with that kind of stuff, you know. Stop. Yeah. But he was you know what I thought was great about Ray is like so many artists you know aren't appreciated till after they're gone, you know. Ray saw the impact he had. I mean, I went to his 90th birthday celebration in in in England. Um, the the British Film Academy did this great tribute to Ray and everybody showed up. I mean, Peter Jackson came, you know, people who didn't show up sent videos. Steven Spielberg sent a video. Jim Cameron did. All talking about how much Ray's films and Ray's work influenced them and it was really great, you know, and and I I it's so nice that he was able to be appreciated like that in his lifetime and and now I'm actually I'm in the funny thing is I'm getting that now with this with my book that's come out. People are just going, "Oh my god, you're I I love you so much and the

40:30stuff you've done." It's just you know, it's nice to know that you you know, I I served a purpose in my life, you know. you you served a giant purpose and you served a big purpose in my life, man. Like I said, I'm I'm such a huge fan of your work. And when you look back, like what was the first thing that you did where you like, "Okay, that was a good one." Well, you know, it's funny once you do something then you look at it, you see all the things that are wrong with it, you know, and and I always say I wish I could see the film before I make this stuff because so many times the thing that's supposed to be the most important thing to isn't and something that you like threw together is all of a sudden the most important thing, you know. I mean, I I mean, American Werewolf was probably the one where uh, I mean, that's one that really put me on the map. I mean, a lot of people say King

41:16Kong was, but um, uh, American Werewolf, you know, I I I looked at it and I thought, "Well, that's pretty cool, you know, but I also went, "God, I wish we did this and I wish I do I you know, I didn't do that, you know." And I see so many things that I would do differently now. That movie is a masterpiece. Uh, what? It's a great film. It's a great film. I mean, and I my second film was Schlock, which was John Landis's first film. Ah. Uh, and I was 20 and he was 21. And I had again, I think I had 6 weeks and I think I had a thousand dollars again to make John played the Schlock Thropis. I don't know if you've ever seen Schlock. No, never saw it. That's that's another one you got to watch. Uh, low budget, you know, movie shot by a kid basically, you know. Um, with a you know, and he like I said, he played this it was based Have you ever seen Trog? Yes. yeah, yes. He saw Trog and couldn't

42:06believe that they made this movie. So, he was making like a joke a joke version of Schlock, you know. Uh. Uh, and he wanted to play this ape man character and it's like, "Well, okay, you know, but you're going to be the director, too." So, you know, he had to be on set at 6:00 in the morning whether Schlock worked or not, all made up, you know. And it was shot in 3 weeks in John and I were going on 2 hours sleep a night, you know, he I would make him up. We were out in Agoura where it used to be an Oakwood school where John went for a while and I think he was thrown out of. Uh, and we lived and worked in this like screened in patio that was left over in this dilapidated building. I was making up John on a bar stool and eventually he was like falling asleep and doing those you know, that thing, you know, and I'd have to grab him, but he for some reason they were doing the

42:57dailies at at MGM. So, we would have to go from after 12-hour day of filming and you know, an hour of removing the makeup, we'd get in the car, drive to MGM, look at the previous day's dailies, drive back, sleep for 2 hours, get up, start again. Oh my god. And it was during a heat wave in Agoura and the first day John uh, had the suit on all day and I was like combing it and brushing it and the hair was just falling out in handfuls and I went, "Oh my god, and then my my second film of my career is over." And and I would staying up all night with a hair dryer trying to dry the suit out so I could glue more hair on it, you know. Uh, but it's it's it's actually kind of a cool makeup and and and and a kind of a fun character, you know, and John had already written American Werewolf. And he said, "My next film's going to be American Werewolf." He wrote that by the time he was 21?

43:4120 when he wrote it. Wow. Yeah, and he goes, "It's going to be my next film." And he said, "I want to do a transformation in a way that's never been done before. It doesn't make sense to me that a man changing and his body going through this metamorphosis would sit in a chair like Lon Chaney Jr. and be still until he finished changing cuz I think it would be painful and I want him to be able to move and I want to show the pain and you know, how would you do that?" And I go, "I I have no idea, but I would love to." You know, cuz we both love those transformation scenes, you know. Let's pull that transformation scene up. The initial transformation scene is so awesome. Cuz I I remember seeing it in the theater. What year was this? 1981, I think it was. Okay, so I was 14 years old. I was in high school and I remember seeing this in the movie theater and this was

44:28another one that sort of cemented the idea that I wanted to be a a makeup artist. When he pulls all his clothes off and he's burning up and then he looks at his hand and his hand starts stretching out. Like that was incredible. This was just such a different werewolf, too. Like everything about it was different. Yeah. Well, again, and I credit John for that. And he also said, "You know, I want to do it in a brightly lit room. It's not going to have horror film lighting. It's going to be you know, real, you know." How did you do this? How did you do the hand? we called it a changeo hand. It was actually a fake hand. We storyboarded the whole sequence and that's a different fake hand there. That's the second one. And that's another one there. It's got syringes in it that we pump Now, he's wearing an appliance hand that matches that, see. Um, and we storyboarded the whole sequence

45:12and as you saw when David first took off his clothes, he's not very hairy. Right. And I said, "For me to to glue a little bit of hair on and then we do him a little hairier and a little hairier, it it's better for us to work in reverse. Let me do him in the hairiest first and I'll pull hair off and trim it." Oh, interesting. but we boarded the whole thing out. So, in this hair growing was reverse I I punched hair through rubber and then pulled it through and we reverse printed it so it looked like it was This is a whole fake back again with things coming out of it. So, you punched hair through rubber and pulled it through Yeah, like that. and then reversed it. it grows out like that. Oh, wow. Um, but what I we thought what would be the most impactful thing would be for his face to change last, but what I don't like about the transformation like here, the wolf

45:57has a big mane of hair. So, he's got this big hairy neck that I don't like, you know. And it's you know, and that's David doesn't have lenses in. His eyes were just that red from That was a 10-hour day of makeup. So, just exhausted and with makeup on. This was incredible, man. That's crazy that he doesn't have any eyes He doesn't have anything in his eyes. That's just his eyes. Holy Um, but yeah, this is the first stage changeo head. So, this is a a rubber head that had mechanisms that push it out, you know. Uh, and this is the second stage changeo head. It stretches out like that. The thing that was interesting cuz I mean, I I was 30 when we did this. It was at a time when there weren't people that did this kind of work. There just a few in Hollywood, you know, like John Chambers who did Planet of the Apes. But for me to find a crew, I hired kids that sent me fan mail. There was I was a

46:48kid a kid from Texas that sent me fan mail, another kid from Connecticut and they were like 18. Wow. I I mean, I had a crew of like basically 18-year-olds and me. There was like I think six of us uh, who did this film you know, 30 however many years ago. I'm not good at math. Um, and still looks pretty decent, you know. awesome. Not just pretty decent. I mean, there's a reason why I have the American Werewolf the Pat McGee version of it sitting there in the front. But now I have to call Pat and tell him that the legs are off. What's wrong with the legs? They're too stretched out and too long. It you know, we actually That was the problem cuz I didn't know how I was going to make this four-legged wolf work, you know. And I well, I'll figure out something and then it came to me one night. I thought, "I remember as a kid you ever do that wheelbarrow racing where somebody holds

47:31your feet and you're walking on your hands, you know?" I thought, "Well, if we do something like that and have like puppeteered legs in the back." Mhm. So, if the reality is if you really see the the full full wolf, there's feet sticking out of his ass. He's got uh, you know, two legs sticking out, but we had him like on a platform with wheels and the back legs were puppeteered with little rods, you know. So, you never you know, the back In the back legs come in, that's when you cut, you know. Right, right, right. And a lot of the stuff like in Piccadilly Circus and the big bus crash and stuff, that's me in a wheelchair with a with a head with John pushing me down the street. Wow. That was a great scene. God, that was a great scene. Yeah. And werewolf comes bursting out of the the the porno theater. Yeah. Which they guy in the head. That script I think was

48:12the only script that I've worked on in my entire career that the script that I read was basically the script we made. The only difference was when John wrote the script originally that Eros Cinema in in Piccadilly Circus was a cartoon cinema. And in the original script it was a cartoon cinema, but when we got there, it was a porno cinema. So, he changed that scene, you know, to a porno cinema. Other than that, it's the same the script is basically verbatim what he wrote as a 20-year-old. And his use of music and everything was groundbreaking at the time. People didn't do like the way he did, you know. And his friend that kept returning Jack. more or more and more rotten every time. Like that was a genius idea as well. Like that Jack had explained to him like, "Hey, man, you got to kill yourself. You're a werewolf. You're going to kill a bunch of people." Like the it was so

48:59everything about it was so unique. It was a it it completely flipped the whole idea of what a werewolf movie was on its head. Yeah, and and and it worked, you know, and and Griffin who who played Jack when I first made him up in that makeup, uh, he as I was putting the stuff on, you know, in the makeup chair, he's kind of like getting more and more sad and like sinking down in the chair and and it's like, "What's wrong, Griffin? Is something wrong?" And he goes, "Look at me." You know, and I go, "Yeah." And he goes, "Look at me. This is my big break and I mean, I I you know, my throat's torn out and I mean, nobody's going to look at me, you know." And it's like, "Did you read the script?" "Yeah." "Didn't it say your throat was torn out? Yeah. And he goes, But I didn't I didn't think it would look like this. And he go, I did. And that's what John thought it should look like. bummed out?

49:45Well, he was at first, you know, cuz it is it's disturbing to see, you know, But it's a great role. Yeah, I know, and he was brilliant and and he he was terrific to work with, you know, but the initial shock of seeing himself torn up Right. was it was hard for him to take, you know. Cuz it's so realistic. Yeah, but he but he would you know, I thought okay, I got to call John was in England already scouting locations and Uh so I said, you know, you got to talk to Griffin. He's you know, kind of upset about what he looks like, you know, and Uh but you know, I took that opportunity uh being the sensitive guy that I am to tell him that the third part of his transformation was it was actually going to be a puppet. It wasn't going to really going to be him because he was supposed to become basically a talking skeleton, Right. And the makeup process is an additive process and

50:30and you know, he would have to be a huge skull to look right, you know, and he wasn't too happy about that either, but I said but I want you to operate the mouth because you're doing the lips sync, you know, you're you're doing the voice and you you know, so he operated a puppet, but he he turned out to be a great guy, you know, and and and he I thought he was brilliant in the film and and you know, the whole film, you know. The film's amazing and it's funny, too. That's one one of the things that's interesting about the film. It's like it's silly but horrific. Like the violence and the the the explosive scenes of the werewolf ripping people apart but then some of it is hilarious. Well, that whole sequence in the porno theater with all the dead people and bloody pie I mean, when we were when we were filming it, I was kind of going is this funny? You know, is this going to work?

51:16funny. It was a welcome sort of comic relief from the the graphic horror of the the werewolf tearing people apart. Yeah. Yeah, and you know, it's I think it's a brilliant film and It's a brilliant film. And it changed my life. I mean, I got my first Oscar for that film, you know, and and uh I mean, it so fortunate to me that uh that John came into my life and this this happened again because of Don Post Studios that I talked about where I they made the Halloween masks. Um John was a mail boy at Fox for a while and he knew John Chambers. He would deliver mail to the John Chambers who did the Planet of the Apes makeup. And he talked to John Chambers at first about doing Schlock and John said, well, I need you know, $250,000 and the budget of the whole film I think was $30,000, you know. So uh he I think he just basically didn't want to deal with this hyperactive kid, you know, and

52:10so he sent him to Don Post Studios and Don Post uh you know, said, well, same thing and they didn't really want to deal with this kid and and they had it would be way too much money, you know. Right. But they said there's a kid who comes in here and buys material. I used to go there to buy materials because in those days now there's stores that sell all the supplies that you need. Right. I used to have to drive all over California to get what I need and some stuff they would only sell you in a 55-gallon drum which couldn't afford, you know. Like polyurethane polyurethane foam which is a two-part foam that foams up chemical reaction that forms it up. Makes cyanide gas when it foams. Which nobody told me. You know, but Don Post would you know, pour some in a can you go, here you go, kid, you know, and first time I used it in my bedroom I I practically died. Yeah. And I have a

52:56real strong I I it I have a very strong allergic reaction to it now when it Because of that. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I mean, my throat closed up. I could hardly breathe and Oh. And they didn't know what was going on and they found out what it was, but Don Jesus. Yeah, but because of that because I left that's the only time in my life I actually had a business card, you know, and John says, you know, it said Rick Baker monster maker, but I think it said Rick Baker makeup artist, you know, but I gave a card and some pictures to Don Post and when they were trying to get rid of this kid who wanted a funky gorilla suit thing, you know, they said, well, this guy's made some gorilla suits, why don't you talk to him? And John lived in Westwood uh near the cemetery there the veterans cemetery. He he drove out to Covina and again I was still pretty shy at that point and my bedroom at that point was

53:38you know, I I had I slept on a convertible sofa cuz I had gotten enough money to buy one so I could fold it up and have more floor space to work, but my masks and my head work tables everywhere, you know, and and John is very loud and and and and and uh hyperactive and and he was coming in and he was flipping out over the stuff that I made, you know, and like touching it and stuff and I'm going like this guy's in my room. He's touching my stuff and he's really scaring me. But I mean, thank God. I mean, American Werewolf, you know, put me on the map and I mean, I I I did Coming to America and it made an introduction to Eddie Murphy was you know, and I did a lot of films with Eddie and because of John I actually met my wife Sylvia on on a John Landis film where he had me play a um originally it was a Jesus freak. It was a film called Into the Night and it was all filmed at night and we

54:33and met my wife on Hollywood Boulevard in front of Fredericks of Hollywood uh in the middle of night and it turned out I I they changed it to a dope dealer. I was playing a dope dealer and Sylvia was the hair stylist on the film and John came in and says, I want you to be in the movie. I want you to play the part you were born to play, a hooker. You know, so my wife was a hooker in the background, you know, uh and there's a picture of us. It's in in the book actually on the night we met in front of Fredericks of Hollywood Oh, that's cool. And you know, now we have two amazing children and and and a great life and you know, I owe John a lot, you Well, you and John made magic. You really did. I mean, that that movie was so good. You know, and as we said, one of the things about that film is it's it was so strategic in its use of the werewolf. You know, that you you

55:19do really when you got a chance to see it. Like one of my favorite scenes was when the guy the businessman is in the subway and he's running away from the werewolf and you know it's chasing him but you don't see it. And you don't see it until he's stumbling on the escalator then you see it at the bottom of the escalator just for a second. into the frame. Just walking into the frame and you're like, yeah. And they cut right before you see his feet sticking out of his ass. Well, that was the thing with the design of the werewolf as well cuz because John said he wasn't going to show it. I normally you would when you do something that's going to be an animatronic character, you would kind of sculpt it in a neutral position and you let the mechanism uh make the expressions. But uh from my experience in other films that the editor doesn't necessarily choose

55:59the moment where you think it's the best expression, you know, and I thought if it's only going to be on for a second, I want it to look be scary looking. So I sculpted in a scary expression on it which I normally wouldn't do. Uh I just so you there was no way that it wasn't going to look scary when you saw it, you know. Right. Snarling. Yeah. Was that was that the case with the Cantina scene in Star Wars? Cuz the Star Wars scene um there's that's a that's a crazy scene because you've got so many characters in that scene and today when you go back and look at it like It's pretty cheesy. You see masks. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I that came about originally the you know, film was done in England. Nobody knew Star Wars was going to be Star Wars, you know, Stuart Freeborn was the makeup artist in the film. He did the Wookiee. He did the Cantina scene originally but George

56:48wanted to embellish on it and didn't like a lot of the stuff that he did. So at ILM which was in Van Nuys then Industrial Light & Magic when it first started the guys who were doing the visual effects for for that uh for Star Wars my friends that I met at Klokey's, Dennis Muren and Ken Ralston were were uh shooting the the special effects and George came in and said, do you know anybody that can make a mask cuz I need I want to add some masks to the to the Cantina scene and they go, yeah, we do. So they called me in and so I went over to Valjean Avenue and George on a flatbed editor showed me the sequence as it existed and I was flipping out. I was like, what a cool idea to have this bar full of aliens, you know, and I go, well, let's do you know, let's do you do one that has like you know, like this kind of like a alien pirate that's got a like alien parrot character and this stuff. He

57:34goes, well, we we don't have any money, you know, it's like you know, we've already spent the money, you know, it it we don't have a lot of money for this. I just want masks. Uh you know, and I said, well, I you know, what? I have a bunch of stuff I made myself for fun that we can just throw in there. But there's a devil guy that I made that five years before Star Wars, you know. There's a werewolf guy and another guy with glowy eyes. I made those before Star Wars. I just said, you can use them. I I thought they were going to be stuck in the background, you know, and but we did like the Cantina band, you know, the first the first aliens that you see almost all the first aliens you see are all ones that we did. I think we did 30. And but what was great Yeah, that was one of the masks I made before he's good. Jamie's the best. Yeah. Play that, Jamie. Yeah, that was such a great scene, too,

58:24though. Uh you know, these are Stuart Freeborn's things, you know, but the thing that's great the Cantina band was never there. And when you see the movie, you think it's there. Yeah. I've used this so many times where I say, can we shoot this like in post-production? That's the devil guy. Yeah. And these guys were the guys that we one of the guys some of the guys we So you shot the alien band in post? Yeah, and and in Los Angeles in a by different people at a different time and I've said to you know, I when I say to people, let's can we shoot this in post and cuz what happens, you know, most directors don't like dealing with this this you know, and they'll put it off till the last shot of the day and then it's like, well, you got 45 minutes and they go, but this is the money shot, you know, and I prepared for months for this and you're giving me 45 minutes to

59:07do this. It's not right, you know, let's shoot it in post-production. Well, that'll never work. It'll never match. It's like, did you see Star Wars? Yeah. You know, the band that's in the Cantina? Yeah. That was shot by different people in a different country months later. Did you know that? No. You know, it's like, you think they're there. You hear the music that they're playing through the scene, you know, these are some of our aliens, those two guys, the blue guys and um as is that werewolf Yeah. That was the only one that looked like a mask. Well, yeah. I mean, I think that I think they all look like masks. We made that guy and that mask in the background was one of mine that I had before, too, you know. Um, but yeah, it it's such a great scene. again, it was a great idea and people I I did not make that one. That was the one Stuart's. Um, people think of it fondly, you know, and

59:54it's more that it's a great idea than that work is great, you know. Yeah, well, it was it was a great conglomeration of cool characters all in one bar and you, you know, at the time I mean, it was a completely unique and new thing. Oh, yeah. And but after that, every movie, every space movie had a cantina scene, you know, and and and it's like American Werewolf, too. Every transformation after American Werewolf was basically the same transformation. You know, they did the same things, you know. Uh, and it happened on Thriller, too, you know, I mean, I because of American Werewolf when Michael came to John Landis to do Thriller, you know, he liked American Werewolf and he wanted to do um, he he wanted it to be a short film. He didn't want to call it a music video. Mhm. And John contacted me and and said, you know, Michael Jackson wants to do this American Werewolf-like music video, you

60:43know, and for the song Thriller, which I hadn't heard. And it was like, you know, Michael Jackson, little Michael Jackson, Jackson 5? Yeah, you know, he's not called that anymore, you know. Uh, and so he goes, John says, I'll send you a cassette and listen to it and get some ideas, you know. So, I and this is when we had little Walkman, you know, and Yeah. I'd listen to it with one. I had another one that I would like like free associate ideas when I was listening, you know, and and uh, and you know, uh, it was like this I thought, well, these we came up with the idea of doing these zombie dancers and and I said, well, you know, I'm sure you're going to hire the dancers way in advance so they can learn the dance and stuff. And he goes, no, they they they're they only need like a couple of days. So, they hired him like 3 days before we filmed. And I went, I can't

61:26that doesn't give me time to take life masks and do all the stuff that I would do. And these zombies should be really cool, you know. So, I said, how about if the first zombies you see are like me and my crew because we already have life masks. We can start those today and we can spend the time in making some cool ones. So, I'm in Thriller coming out of a crypt like this, you know, and and all my crew basically are the first guys that come out of the ground and break through windows. But the dancers, I said, I'll figure out a way we can do them. And I because I had a number of life masks of different people in small, medium, and large male, small medium, and large female. And we sculpted uh, we kept pieces we called them like bandit masks. They were kind of like this around this area like a bandit in in a Right. Like the It's like a raccoon mask. Yeah. And it didn't have the nose

62:10on it because, you know, proportionally you could get away with more. So, we had different sculptures of small, medium, and large male, small, medium, and large female that we'd just say, okay, you're a medium male number two. And we made these big teeth that we could pop in their mouth and put some denture lining material and fit them. So, the dancer makeups were not as good as the more featured makeups. But Michael in the upper left-hand corner, that one, Jamie, with the eyes. Yeah, look at that. Like that was excellent. And again, we kept it that way. But what happened is the zombies after that, everybody was just doing pieces like this. I only did it like that because of the limitations I had in that thing, you know. But that was I mean, that was a really another really quick job and very little money. Um, Thriller was very little money? For me. Uh, uh,

62:54it turned I mean, they spent the money. They had a lot of cameras and a lot of stuff in their filming. Um, but it it I I was, you know, working day and night every day of the week to get the stuff done and John then surprised me with the making of Thriller on the day that Michael was coming out for us to take his life mask and make a cast of his face. He goes, oh, there's a a camera crew here, a couple cameras. I'm like, what are you talking about? He goes, I want to do a making of. And I go, I was going, no, you know, it's like it always looks horrifying to see somebody having a life mask taken. And I go, I don't need and Michael's really shy. I don't need we don't need this. I don't I don't I don't want this. He goes, shut up. We're doing it, you know. It's like, you know. I I was not happy about it. But then so many people have come up to me who are makeup artists now and go, the

63:40reason I'm a makeup artist is because I saw the making of Thriller and and and it inspired me to to do this, you know, and my stock answer is uh, you thought that if this idiot could do it, I can do it, you know, kind of thing, you know. Well, there was a time where music videos were a new thing and then Thriller changed what a music video is. It it it was so huge. It was a a world premiere event that was on MTV and it's so hard for kids today to understand what that means. But we were all like gathered around the TV waiting for the Michael Jackson Thriller world premiere. And it it premiered and it changed what a music video is. Yeah. Then all of a sudden it became this film and it was really cool cuz like Michael Jackson was this sweet guy and he's on a date with his beautiful girl and and the next thing you know, he's a were cat or whatever he was. Was that supposed to

64:34be a cat? Like what Yeah. I I he wanted to be a werewolf and I said, you know, I don't think he should be a werewolf and I thought something feline would be fit him better, you know. And I originally did a like a black panther and then I was afraid of the black panther, you know, the I didn't want him to be associated with the black panthers. You know what I mean? The political part. Yeah, yeah. So, I then became more of fantasy. I gave it longer hair and like white stripes. See if you find his transformation to the cat cuz it was reminiscent in somewhat of American of American Werewolf, but cool and unique in its own way. I didn't Well, again, we didn't we didn't have the time to do that. Yeah. I wasn't sure what it was. I was like, is that a cat? Is that a werewolf? Is that a Yeah. Well, that's what people call it a werewolf. Sometime people call it a cat. I say, you know, I just, you

65:14know, thought it was cool-looking, you know. It was definitely cool-looking, whatever it was. But you know what happened? I mean, Thriller was like work work work work work and and originally it was going to be my my crew were going to be the guys that do the makeups and they were all non-union and it at the last minute became a union production. So, I had to hire union makeup artists and there were many to do the dancers and many of them were people I didn't know and there weren't a lot of people that were good at this stuff. Mhm. Um, yeah, that's again, we had little bladders in his hand. There's actually an American Werewolf hand in here at one point, I think. Oh, really? Yeah. That's Yeah, that's the nail growing thing was from American Werewolf. And then you did a similar thing with the ears. And he had the whiskers. Yeah. Yeah, I see like Yeah, it's before his hair grew

65:59a little silly. But when you look at that, like what is that? Yeah. Is that a cat? Whatever it is, it's cool. Yeah. But he um, that it it it was an amazing experience because, you know, I was I guess I was really stressed out the day that we were filming the dancers and I was I had to makeup Michael as a zombie. I had a number of makeup artists I didn't even know and hadn't worked before with before that were doing other zombies and I'm running through trailers going, no, no, no, like this, you know, and then making up Michael and it's like, oh, man. And we were filming in Vernon, downtown Los Angeles next to the Farmer John meatpacking place and they had just slaughtered the animals and it had this weird smell in the air. Oh, jeez. And then the dance started and I all of a sudden it just like this wave went over me of just the stress went away and I just was looking at what was

66:44happening in front of me and I was going, oh my god, look at this, you know, and and people would pay money to see this and I'm I get to see this, you know, I saw the Thriller dance happening when it was, you know, for the first time there, you know, when it was being filmed. How many times did they shoot it? I don't not that many, I don't think. But there were I think there were six cameras on it, you know. Um, the whole street, you know, in front of it was filled with cameras and uh, but the other thing that was so cool about it, that was one of the dancer makeups. Um, the Michael, when we were doing in in pre-production, Michael did a a Motown special that was on television where he moonwalked for the first time and nobody had seen the moonwalk. And I didn't see it. I was busy working and but one of my crew who went home at night and recorded it and he goes,

67:31you're not going to believe this. It's the same kid that was in our makeup chair the other day cuz Michael's very shy as well. Really meek and quiet in person. And he's so dynamic on stage, you know, and and it was he's like two different people. I mean, when Michael's performing, he's incredible, you know. Now, he was a and I mean, to say he was unique is the biggest understatement in the history of the world. But this whole scene with him when he becomes a zombie, it was so bizarre, too. Like even the dancing was so strange, you know. It was cool, though. Well, it was really cool. And to see it live for the first time, you know, out in the cold with the But they don't do anything like this anymore. I mean, really, it doesn't happen. Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny. I like you you've said a number of times I try to explain to my daughters that, you know, we we had television, but you

68:20I I had a TV guide. I would look at every page and try to find when a monster movie's going to be on and have to watch it then or I couldn't see it. And if I wanted to see it again, I would have to wait a year or whatever, you know. There wasn't an internet, you know, you know, I had I had to go to the library to find books on makeup, which there weren't very many, you know. Now, you there's all these YouTube videos. I even have some, you know, and but it's it's a different world. I mean, the information wasn't as as available. And you couldn't, you know, you couldn't just call up let's see Thriller, you know, on TV, you know. Now, when you did The Wolfman, was there a push to do some sort of CGI version of that? Was it Did you have to like Was there a discussion about how to do it? I expected that it would do it CGI because everything at that time was basically CGI. And

69:08I had a friend that got a copy of the script. And I read it and it read like a CGI thing. Mhm. And I was actually filming at Universal. We were filming some of the Norbit stuff at Universal and I went to a a producer there that I knew uh, who was a visual effects producer as well. And I asked him if he knew anything about The Wolfman, you know, because I said I'd love to do this, you know. I mean, that's one of the films that made me do what I do, you know, and And I said this is going to be CG, and he goes, "No, actually they were talking about it being a makeup." And I go, "Well, will you put my name in there? That, you know, I would I would love to do this." So, uh They The original director wanted it to be a makeup. Uh and uh I thought we were going to do transformation. We actually built stuff for a transformation. Uh it was a weird film uh in so many ways. It seemed like

70:00you know, Benicio was great to work with. He wanted to He wanted to be the Wolfman, you know. He's a monster, a real monster kid, too, you know. Anthony Hopkins was great, you know. I I did it with my friends Dave and Lou Elsey. Uh but I I think we were the only people that wanted to be working on a movie called The Wolfman. I mean, I think everybody else was embarrassed that they were working on a movie called The Wolfman. Really? Yeah. And they would do things The production manager called me into the office once and said, "What What is the Why are you buy buying all this hair? What is this hair for?" I go, "Seriously? You Why do you need this hair?" And he had a big behind his desk he had a big sign that said, "Wolfman." And I went and covered it up and covered up the wolf part with my hands and go, "Right now we have this, a man. I'm going to make him a wolfman, and I

70:45need hair for that." He goes, "Why do you need hair?" Cuz wolves have fur, you know. I was like, "What What the I can't believe I'm having this conversation with you, you know." He goes, "What I mean, do you need all that hair, you know? I mean, what I know it's like that through the whole movie, you know. It's just so embarrassing you have to talk to someone like that. That they don't just let you do whatever you do. I know. And you know, I I think people who are in the industry who have to deal with this stuff all the time too think that I never have to, you know. Right. all the time, you know, and It seems like everybody has to. Yeah. Yeah. And but it I mean, it was very frustrating, but again, Dave and Lou Elsey and I we we had we'd worked day and night, and when everybody was gone, we had the best time, you know, like we're working on a Wolfman movie, you know, and when we

71:24first filmed the the sequence in the gypsy camp where there's all these gypsies and and fog and and stuff. It's like, Yeah, that was cool. movie, you know. Well, that's what was It was very reminiscent of the old movies, but like a new version of the old movies. Yeah. With the fog and the gypsy camp and all that jazz. It was really similar to the original Lon Chaney. Yeah. And it also had a kind of a Hammer film feel to it, too, you know. And we and Anthony Hopkins' makeup was was, you know, a little more uh Curse of the Werewolf, Christopher Not Christopher, I was going to say Christopher Lee. What was his name? Oliver Reed, who played the um had that kind of feel to it. And And I mean, like I said, Benicio is a real big fan of of of the horror films. And and And we got along great. In fact, he would come into the makeup trailer with old monster magazines and

72:18that he bought on the internet and uh uh There he is. And he would quiz me on stuff, you know. I He goes, "What's this?" And I knew everything. I knew you know, everything on every page, you know. And we we became we connected. We bonded over that, you know. The scene where he makes the transformation in the medical theater. Uh-huh. That was a great scene. Yeah, it's all CG, though. Is that all CG? I mean, it's based It's based a lot on ideas that I had, you know, cuz I I mean, what I said, you know, cuz they said, "Well, we got to do the great transformation like American Werewolf." And I said, "American Werewolf, we had a naked man who changed into a four-legged hound from hell. Right. have Benicio del Toro, and we have Benicio del Toro with some hair on his face, you know, and some teeth. Right. We can't the changes aren't the same. We can't stretch out his body. We can't do You know,

73:07Well, we won't have that same kind of feel. So, I said, "Well, how about if we do things where his fingers twist and do uncomfortable things and stuff like that." Right. But we actually made a lot of stuff, but it's so weird. I mean, like the production, we weren't even invited to the set when they did the transformation, even though we had stuff. They didn't want you to go? want me there. Why is that? know. They didn't want your input? Uh you know, I guess, even though it's a lot of the what's in there is based on some animatics that I did and some drawings and stuff. But um it was a really weird deal. I mean, it's like we were the unwanted children in that movie, you know. That's so crazy for me to hear something like that. It's so it's stunning, because I would have assumed that in my eyes you're Hollywood royalty. Like you're the guy who made American Werewolf in

73:57London. You're the guy who made so many of these incredible movies with makeup and special effects. I would think that they'd be pumped that you were there. Well, yeah, I thought that, too, you know, but it wasn't the case. But, you know, I mean, I you know, something interesting when I read this book that on my career, I complain too much about the film industry, and I shouldn't because it's been really good to me. I mean, I like I said, it's it was my hobby and I made a a decent living at it, and I got awards for it, and I got free food and things, you know. And it is magic. I mean, you rolling. Uh you you It's like time traveling. Like working on this movie when we're in you know, London in in in areas that haven't changed since the 1800s, and you have all these people in period costumes. It really is like you time travel, you know, and you get to work with some really amazing

74:43people. Yeah, see this is all CG. Really well-done CG, I think. Really well done. Yeah. And and and Steve Begg, who was the visual effects supervisor, was uh a really great guy, and he was really upset that we weren't able to do the stuff as well. But they I think they did a terrific job. And I, you know, I like CG to a degree. I mean, I I I like the fact that it's another technique that we can use to do things that we can't do in the real world with rubber, you Right. Right. I just don't like that they do things when we can't do it, you know. Um And I think a lot of it comes down to Oh. Before American Werewolf, I would have to try to beg people to let me do something. I mean, it was like, "Can I put a mustache or in a scar on this guy, you know?" Uh After American Werewolf, I would get scripts with stuff in it I had no idea how the hell I was going to do and like

75:37crazy crazy stuff, but they they would say to me, "What Cuz they did a lot of interviews after American Werewolf, and they said, "What is the material that changed that that allowed you to do work that we haven't seen before?" And I said, "I got adequate time and adequate money." And it was the first time I had that. And after that, I like when I did Gremlins 2, I had a year's prep. But the problem is I need answers a year before we start filming because I I I need to make the stuff, and usually a director's on another movie then and doesn't want, you know, well, eventually after I hound them I try to get an answer will give me some kind of answer, which just to make me shut up, you know. Mhm. Uh CG, all that stuff comes in post. The film's already made. You kind of cut it together. They start making the stuff. But this is obviously makeup. That is, yeah. So, it was CG during the

76:29transformation scene. And then when he's the werewolf, this was done in a different day. Uh yeah. Well, I mean, they they the CG was done all in post, yeah. Right. But yeah, him sitting in the chair was Benicio on the day, and and this is That's actually the stunt double. And so, sometimes when he was running, he was running on all fours. Yeah. And on in leg extensions, and most of that stuff is Spencer Wilding, who was our stunt double. Mhm. Uh There's There's some shots of close-ups. This is Spencer, the stunt double. Yeah, well, that was what was weird about it. It's like he's running, but he's got kind of like dog legs. Yeah, well, he's got He's a werewolf. Yeah, but he's running on two legs with dog legs. He's a biped. I get it. It's just That's Benicio. But it was It was a hybrid, you know, of American Werewolf and the original Wolfman. Well, you know, the Wolfman had, you know, he

77:18he stayed on his balls of his feet, you know, he did try to get that illusion of like dog legs, you know. he? The original one? Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I It's so funny because I walked like that as a kid though all the time, you know, and we do things. And so could Dave Elsey. But when we tried to get the stunt guys or even Benicio to do it, they couldn't do it. They couldn't walk on their toes? on their balls of their feet like that with their heels up, you know. Why not? I don't know, you know. You know, it's like, "How come I can do it?" But it's also something a skill I developed as a child. Oh, that's hilarious. Now, when you see a film like that and you say, you know, you think about all the the difficulties that you had in making it. Was there ever a film where they let you just go crazy? Just do whatever you wanted to do? Well, pretty much American Werewolf.

78:04Yeah. Well, that was the best one. Yeah. Well, that's And and again, you know, Gremlins 2, which I did, was a film I turned down numerous times. My friend Chris Chris can't speak. Chris Walas did the original Gremlins. And I didn't basically want to copy Chris's work, and I also knew it was a big job with a lot of stuff. And they kept after me. Chris was unavailable. I think he was doing The Fly. And uh The Jeff Goldblum version? Yeah, which is Jeff is amazing. Jeff was great. He should have won an Oscar. I mean, that was one of the all-time great performances. Yeah, a lot of people forgot about that movie. he's he's brilliant in that. Um Um But the They said, "What can we do to en entice you to do this movie?" And I go, "Let me redesign the Gremlins some. I go, "I would like to make them individual characters." Chris's version, all the Gremlins were

78:54all the same mold. All the Mogwais were all the same So, you basically cuz you can't make one puppet that does everything. So, you have the You know, this puppet that you have your hand in, and you have this puppet that you have some rods on. You have this puppet that does this. But they could be interchangeable for any any Mogwai or any Gremlin. Making them individual characters means I had to have, you know, six versions of of each one, you know. So, we made hundreds of things. But I said, you know, if I can make them characters and change the design some, I'd be more interested. And then we came up with the idea of doing the genetics lab where one turns into a bat, one turns into a spider, one turns into a vegetable gremlin. And but what was great about working with Joe Dante, I mean Joe is also a monster fan, you know, monster kid guy. So we we could

79:35communicate in that in that way, you know, where you would say, "You know, it's like Invasion of the Body Snatchers." He knew what I was talking about. Oh, okay. Like Barry Sonnenfeld, who I did Men in Black with, I said that to he he'd go, "You know, I never seen a science fiction movie." He never saw any science fiction movie. said. He'd go, "I saw Alien, but I got too scared and left, you know." And my crew on on Men in Black were going, "Oh my god, this is going to be a disaster, you know." And I was saying, "You know, I don't you know, it could be a really good thing. He could make a really unique film and not just base it on other stuff that he'd seen, you know." And I think Men in Black is a really great film. It is. Yeah, it's really fun. And he was he was terrific for it, you know, but at first it was a little scary, you know. But Joe But you know, Joe was great and he's

80:15really open to suggestions, you know. And on the first Gremlins they had a suggestion box. It's like, "What can we have the Gremlins do?" And people would put things in there. So you know, we would say, "How about if we do this? How about if we do that?" Okay, you know, so uh it was it was a nice collaboration, you know. And and and that was fun, you So you have some fond memories of Oh, no, I mean I have a I have a lot of fond memories and mostly it's in the pre-production time. I mean my crew It is hard though to not concentrate. It's like you have to make a concerted effort to not concentrate on the annoyances and the negative parts. Yeah, and it is hard and especially when it's you get it every day, but Yeah. But the hours, you know, people don't realize I mean a normal film day is a 12-hour day. Yeah. But I you know, for me an average makeup is a 3 and 1/2

80:57hour makeup. Then you have a 12-hour day, then you have an hour removal time, Mhm. So they're very long days. I spent most of my career working 18, 15, 18-hour days, you know, and 20-hour days and sometimes all night, you know, and and all day just to get the stuff done, you And that's pre-Adderall. Yeah, you know. Nobody had Adderall back then. um and I you know, I'm surprised that I'm you know, like I said, I'm I'm going to be 69 in like a month and and I'm surprised I'm still alive first of all, you know, and and and and able to walk and do stuff, you know. When I think about the days of standing on my feet all day long Mhm. all the stuff that Well, what about the chemicals? That's the thing that I would think of. It's a little scary, yeah, you know, and um and we I mean I because of my experience of like I said, with the polyurethane foam and yeah. Yes.

81:48I I I know that you know, this stuff is dangerous. And I also had one time we the paint that I used to use to paint rubber, it's hard to get rubber to paint to stick to rubber. And I found out that on the Creature from the Black Lagoon and they made paint out of rubber cement and universal tinting colors uh and thinned it with benzene and it would bond to rubber. So I used to paint my masks in my bedroom with benzene, which is a carcinogen. Uh you know, Mhm. atomizing it, spraying through an airbrush, you know, no spray booths or anything. I used to have I used to have a 5-gallon drum of benzene that I'd wash my hands off in, you know. Um Oh my god. And then when I found out cuz they weren't material safety data sheets like they are now, you know, when I found out how dangerous this stuff was, I I I became kind of fanatical about it. You know, my shop

82:39my studio I had seven spray booths um to take the fumes away and and make sure it was safe and I mean you know, I had I think it was the safest shop in Hollywood with this stuff because I didn't want to I didn't want to find out 10 years down the line that half my crew died because of something they dealt with with me, so um But yeah, it's a it's a little scary, especially in the old days when we didn't know better, Right. It's most people now are pretty safe with this stuff, What was the last film you worked on? Maleficent. Not the one that not the one that just came out, but the the first one, yeah. And uh it was interesting. I um I it it came about because uh a friend, Tony G, who's uh Angie's makeup artist and does her beauty makeup all the time. She worked with me on the first one, Nutty Professor, and then we did Life together and she was like the department

83:32head on The Grinch Grinch Christmas and Planet of the Apes, the Planet of the Apes that I did um dealt with all the makeup artists and um And it was really great. She's a great beauty makeup artist, but also a really great effects makeup person. And she said to Angie, you know, when when they were going to do Maleficent, she goes, "You have to get Rick Baker. He's the guy to do this, you know." And he's got a good aesthetic and he knows not to when to put stuff on and when not to, you know, and And I said, "Boy, I don't I don't Women are the hardest to make up, you know, uh the especially if you're doing age makeup, you know, I don't think any woman wants to look old, you know. I've done some films where you do the most incredibly subtle little thing and then the actress won't want doesn't want to come out of the trailer because they say they look like a burn victim, you

84:20know, and stuff, you know, or in tears and and and I said, you know, I Angie wanted appliances. She wanted rubber on her face and I was thinking, I don't I don't think she should have, you know. I said, "What I think we can do it with the horns and maybe just ears, you know." Right. Uh but she had this very specific idea that she wanted these angular uh sharp Mhm. Sharp bones, yeah. So I mean the very first thing I did I I did a I said, "Well, let me just think about it and do a design of what I think it should be." Mhm. I did this design and then I met with Angie. She came to my studio uh which is now a storage facility. But the um and she brought a couple of her kids in a in like a nanny kind of person and paparazzi followed her. You know, we closed the gates and we're talking and she's telling me what she wants and one of her kids says to the nanny person, he goes, "I want a Coke."

85:13And Angie was mid-sentence talking to me and she went, "Please." You know. And it really I liked that she was teaching her kids manners, you know. Mhm. And that that kind of sold me right there, you know. It's like, "Okay, she's a mom, too, you know." And and she is incredibly beautiful to look at, you know, and she's pretty persuasive in that respect, you know. Yeah, they don't get any prettier. Yeah. They just get different. Yeah, but I mean I Oh wow, yeah. Well, you did a great job in keeping that beautiful face, but adding just a little bit of weirdness, a little demonic weirdness with the cheeks. Yeah, and and again with the horns I was saying, "You know, maybe this is a really good case of doing CG horns and and having them tracked onto her because when you have something that's that much heavy Heavy. It's not Well, we made it really lightweight. It was incredibly

85:55lightweight and we spent a lot of time developing these lightweight horns that could be removable, so she didn't have to wear them all the time. Right. So they remove like at a point about this far up off of her wig. So I thought if they decide they don't like them, we can take them off and they'd be a good attraction for CG, yeah. Yeah. But they she she wanted them and she wore them, but so we we you know, we spent a lot of time trying to make those really light, figuring the wings? The wings I didn't do. I don't I think I'm not not sure even how they did that. I didn't go to location on filming. Tony G made her up and I had a a really great Dutch guy who was a fan uh uh name Arjen Tuiten who did who put the appliances on with Tony G and and represented me on the set and What is that picture with the American Werewolf with the hand sticking out? a Mike Hill uh uh

86:45Mike Hill does these cool uh uh like wax figures, but they're silicone. Oh. So he did me and he did me as a younger man, which was one of the worst ones he's done. Uh And this was at the Academy for something, but uh yeah, he I gave him the molds actually from American Werewolf for the the hands and and and some of the stuff, but he does he does these great figures and unfortunately I I and I think he even agrees the one he did of me was one of the one of the less successful ones. I think it looks good. Well, it looks good, but it looks a little grim, too, and I I think Part of that was my fault though. He wanted to do me smiling and I go, "You know when I'm working, I'm like this is my concentration face, you know." Right. And uh but I sat for him and he had life casts and everything and uh but uh he does some brilliant stuff. I I know. Whatever happened to the original molds

87:35and all the the original masks and stuff from American Werewolf in London, the original sculpture of the wolf? Well, that sculpture gets destroyed basically when you make the mold. Um I have one of the original heads still. I mean foam rubber is is basically the sap of a rubber tree that you put chemicals in to make it cure and you whip air into it to make it foam and you put another chemical in to make it congeal and then you bake it in the oven. But because it's an organic material, it decomposes, it rots. Oh, really? Yeah, and uh it will last through a film, but it usually doesn't last years. But it does the American Werewolf the stunt head, the one that I killed Griffin with on the moors and then go through the Piccadilly I have and it's hard as a rock. It turns to like uh I call it like grain crackers and if you touch it hard, it'll crumble into dust. Oh wow. Um mine's

88:22it's all hard like that, but it's not people don't touch it, you know. So what does Pat McGee make these out of, the one that our wolf is? I think it's probably slip rubber and polyurethane foam and that lasts a lot longer, but it will decompose. Oh, we'll have to start ordering another one. Yeah. Maybe if we can get him to do the regular If you keep it out of sunlight and keep it out you know, mean He doesn't get out of the studio. Yeah, that's good. He'll he'll last a long time. You know, I mean I I have Bob Burns, who this guy that I met when I was young has some of my original masks that I made when I was 13. Oh wow. are still supple. You can still move them. I don't know how that that rubber has lasted all that time. That's pretty incredible. long time, you know, but When anyone comes here, one of the first things they want to do is take a picture with the

89:02wolf. That literally is like one of the like everybody and their brother has a photo like posing next to wolf or pretend the wolf's biting their head or pretend they're having sex with the wolf. Wolf no. There's a lot of that. There's a lot of people from behind the wolf. What I I think I should residuals. You probably should get some. A little piece. Yeah. A little taste. Something. Free Cokes. Something. Anything. But that I mean that thing is it's if you had to go through like all the more I the most iconic monsters in the history of films, I mean you're you're in the top two or three. I mean it's it's right there with all of them. That that werewolf was like my God. I mean it's absolutely one of the most iconic monsters ever. Yeah, cool. Someone just on my on my Instagram just posted a picture of a tattoo. A beautiful tattoo of of the werewolf. Oh, yeah? So many

89:53people have them. One guy did a a cover-up tattoo that was incredible the werewolf. But I it's funny I mean have the werewolf, I have Harry on people, I've got the Grinch, you know. And some of the stuff I uh Harry and the Hendersons Harry? Yeah. Yeah. That's another one. Oh, and that's one of the films I think still I mean when people ask me what my favorite one is I say Harry because I can look at that film today and I think it holds up perfectly fine. The only thing I think I would change is I would make his teeth a little more translucent, you know, on the ends. But it that was a challenging movie because he had to communicate just by his visual expressions, and and carry the movie, you know. Um and I think he did and I think it and works quite well. Was there is there a movie that stands out as being the most frustrating like the end result? Um

90:43Probably you know I mean they're they're all frustrating to a degree, you know. Um Well, I don't know if there's one particular one. I mean I did and I don't consider this my film. I was approached um by Bob Weinstein to do a werewolf movie called Cursed that Wes Craven was going to direct. And I basically turned it down and there wasn't a lot of time and Bob used my own words against me apparently on a on a DVD of American Werewolf. I said I'd love to have the opportunity to do a transformation again and do it knowing what I know now with the crew that I have now. Right. He goes, I'm giving you that. You said that, you know. So I said to him, the only way I would do this is if you don't have an opinion and Wes doesn't have an opinion. You just let me make what I think is best for this film. It's the only way I can make it cool in the time that you have.

91:35I can't play the change this change that game, you know. Absolutely. You know. Of course that's not the case. No. And they say that And yeah, they say that and it was like change this change that change this change that and it was just like you know, and You almost have to have a a clause in the contract that if they do with you at all, you could just leave and get paid. I I've done that in a in in one one contract um But yeah, it turned out the they started the film before they were really had a script and it was a and it was an idea. Yeah, and it happens all the time. And they it was just a mess and so I never even heard of it. Cursed yeah, what's good. You didn't hear about it. I'm surprised I'm even mentioning it because it did they shut the film down. And I went okay and I said, but we were we were doing some really cool transformation stuff and it wasn't quite

92:25done and I said, listen if you ever think the film's going to pick up again, if you can keep a a number of my people on for another month, we can have this transformation stuff. We'll put it in a box it'll be ready to go. Said if they disperse now, it it's going to be like starting again cuz I won't necessarily get the same people, you know. Right. You know, I know what just put everything in a box, you know, ship it to us where you know, if we start up again, you know, we'll we'll figure it out. They started up again. I I didn't do it. I was on something else. Someone else took over. They they changed everything that I made. They didn't use a lot of what I made. But the film has a single card opening credits says Rick Baker on it. I I spoke with Weinstein and go, I don't want credit for this film. It's not my film. This isn't my work anymore. But it would help them to have you on

93:12it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean I found that frustrating, you know. But you know, again, I have no right to complain about this stuff, you know. They don't do a lot of monster movies anymore and the number of werewolf movies you can kind of count them on one hand. Right? I mean you got The Howling, one stretchy hand. You have The Howling, of course you have American Werewolf, you have the earlier films, but this it's you know, and then you have those I don't consider them werewolf movies those what are the ones with the lady they're Kate Beckinsale. Underworld. Yeah. Yeah, those are kind of But but they're fun to watch Kate Beckinsale in a suit. She's she's pretty hot. But they're just kind of whack. The movies are kind of whack. The vampires are whack. It's like I don't buy any what you're selling. I don't think these are real vampires. I'm not scared. I don't think

93:59that's a werewolf. Get the out of here. Yeah, well I'm more old school horror movie guy and I'm not a big slasher movie guy, you know. I mean again, I I don't like I mean I can't I can't watch those fights that you those MMA UFC fights? Oh, no. I have a one of my crew Eddie Yang Shout out to Eddie. Great guy, yeah. Eddie was the he he he studied with one of the Gracies. And and uh he was saying, "Hey, you got to watch this, Rick." And I mean these guys hitting each other in the face with an elbow and no, I it's not for me, you know. And people will send me cuz they think I like this stuff. Pictures, oh look fell down cut my head, you know. It's like I don't want to see Oh God. I I I I pass out when I cut myself, you know. Yeah. I I mean fake gore is one thing, you know. But I I think it's bad that you know, a movie you know, when uh you know, Halloween and and and Friday the 13th

94:53and and it just became what's the most graphic way we can kill a teenager, you know. And people become when you see you know, a guy with a you know, get shoved in a knife shoved in his eye and then people are just like cheer. Right. That seems wrong to me, you know. Yeah, the desensitization. You know, you should be repulsed by this stuff and I mean I you know, I it's I don't know. But it's so I mean people would think it's funny and kind of ironic coming from someone like you who's made these insane monster films like American Werewolf in London where you're just ripping guys' heads off in Piccadilly Circus. gore, you know. And it's same thing like you know, if if it's a zombie killing you know, you're killing a zombie that's okay, you know. That's that's not real, you know. Right. But just killing a person another person killing a person in a graphic way I I'm

95:40I'm not fond of, you know. So I don't like you know, I mean I I like I well, I call them monster movies more than that, you Me, too. Yeah. And you know, I mean that Charles Laughton Quasimodo, I mean it's a brilliant film and he it's a brilliant makeup in 1939. Right. And you know, it's a perfect makeup on a perfect actor, you know. Charles Laughton was great in that movie and you feel for him, you know. You feel for the Frankenstein's monster, you know. Those those movies just don't there's there's so few and far between today. Like I see a real Frankenstein type movie. Were you fond of the Robert De Niro version of Frankenstein? You know, when I heard they were going to do that film, I thought I got to do this, you know. And I like I said, I don't have an agent. I have a lawyer that makes my deals that I ended up you have to. They give you these contracts you don't understand,

96:30you know. Right. Um and he I I said, do you know anybody involved with this cuz I you know, can you put in a put my name in the hat, you know. Uh and they didn't seem to be interested and when I saw the film I I I was kind of glad I didn't do it. I wasn't I and I I also heard that I was disappointed. I thought, how cool they got Robert De Niro and not just some big stunt guy, you know. Yeah. Uh cuz you know, Karloff was a good actor I think, too. And then eventually, you know, when it turned into a Glenn Strange who was bigger and stuff who was still kind of cool Frankenstein but wasn't Karloff, you know. Um I thought great that they have an actor, you know. But I was so disappointed in when I saw it. I didn't think what he did was amazing at all and and the design it was a lot of work and I thought it was well done, but it didn't have the impact that the Karloff Right.

97:19Yeah. Impact's right expression. Yeah, and and you know, and it's something I it's very much I when I was a kid I did a a makeup thinking, well, he's pieced together out of a bunch of different people should be a lots of scars and and some different colors and things, you know. But it's you need a certain silhouette and something that just catches your eye, you know. And and I didn't think that one did, you Pull up that the image of Robert De Niro as Frankenstein. And you should pull up Boris Karloff at the same time. Yeah, the the Boris Karloff one. I mean that was the first. And that's iconic, you know. And again, the design if you think about it doesn't make sense, you know. Why does he have a flat head? And Right. Why does he have bolts on his neck? Yeah, it well that makes more sense because that's how they feed you electricity, yeah. That on the left I I think that's a

98:09whole test or something. It looks different to me. Yeah. Um And again, it does kind of make sense when you think of it as a man that's pieced together out of different parts, you know. Right, but why are they piecing his face together like that? I know and why would you know Right, cuz Boris Boris Karloff wasn't that pieced together. But it was the the head was very bizarre like the flat head. head and you know, and in the stuff you read that Jack Pierce said in press at the time was you know, uh Frankenstein wasn't a trained surgeon. He would take the easiest route to take the brain out of the top of his head by cutting the top of his head off opening it up like a box Yeah. and putting a you know, new brain in and closing it back up like a box. But but it still wouldn't be flat, Right, why is it flat? Yeah, you would put the skull back on it and maybe it'd

98:52be a an eighth of an inch shorter, you know. Well, how about Frankenstein's bride? She was still hot. I I know with that Nefertiti kind of hair. hair. But she was still hot. Is that the original Frankenstein? Where yeah, that's the Edison Frankenstein. Oh. And again, he has kind of a flat head so I think that might be yeah. Looks like Eddie Money. Yeah, yeah. She was shaking. Does it? Yeah, he's kind of goofy looking, but I I I But yeah, Karloff Karloff's face was just so perfect for it, you know, and I didn't know there was that many Frankensteins. Who's the other one? What is that one? Is that Frank um Well, there's Christopher Lee from Curse of Frankenstein. Then it's uh uh what's it Young Frankenstein. Oh, Young Frankenstein. And Herman Munster on the bottom. I love the Munsters. Yeah, the Munsters are cool. But it is kind of funny that Herman Munster is just a rip-off of

99:44Frankenstein. Well, he was he's supposed to be Well, he he's supposed to be though. And you know, I mean Yeah, his father's like Dracula. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure. And Eddie's kind of like a little wolf man, you know. And I remember in TV Guide when before this came on the air, but they you know, they talked about the new shows that were coming out, you know. This is in the '60s and this is when the big monster craze happened, you know. Ah. And I you know, I was all over it and saw oh, there's going to be a Frankenstein guy on TV, you know, and And it was a great time for somebody like me, you know, and and and and and just soaked it all in and What is the impediment? Like it seems like people love those movies when they come out. Why don't they make more of those movies? You know, well, first of all, the Wolfman that I did wasn't very successful. Yeah. Uh it didn't make a lot of money and

100:29But that was stopped in production at one point. That was reshot. They reshot a bunch of it, right? Yeah, well, we came back for reshoots and again, this is the same thing. Movie's called The Wolfman. Right. They call me up and go, "We're going to do some reshoots in 3 weeks. Uh we want you to build suits for two stuntmen cuz we're going to do this quadruped running, which wasn't in the film originally." And I said, "In 3 weeks?" I I said, "You remember when we did The Wolfman, we set up a shop in London that took like 2 months to set up, you know? Uh all the molds are somewhere in London. I have no idea where they are. Uh you've got them in storage somewhere. Said we found a crew, we did the whole thing. I go, "There's no way I can do it in 3 weeks." I said, "What are we filming?" They said, "Well, the fight at the end in the house and all that." And I said,

101:17"Well, the set's going to take a while to put back together." And they go, "Oh, you know, we started that 3 months ago." Oh, great. And I went, "So, you're giving me 3 weeks to make the Wolfman for this reshoot and you knew about it for 3 months?" And you know, and it's like you know, and if they would've called me even a week sooner, it was a time when everybody was out of work. It was kind of a dry time, but the you know, week before they called me, a whole bunch of shows started. Everybody was busy. Ah. I couldn't find a crew and it was like, "Oh my god." did you wind up doing it? Working day and night and I got into my friends Dave and Lou Elsley again and and I found a couple guys that could kind of do something with the stuff and and we pulled it off, you know, but it was I mean, I seriously was working day and night. Got on a plane, you know, flew to London, got off the plane,

102:05made up an E Seal and another trailer. We had people I hadn't worked with before making up the stunt double. And it was like, "We have to do this because Emily Blunt is going to be doing Gulliver's Travels and she's only available for 2 days. So, we have to film now." So, I get off the plane, make up an E Seal, stunt double's made up, everybody's looking good. I walk out to where we're filming and um they're filming the stunt double in silhouette. And this is again, there's like video village where there's an army producer sitting in in in chairs looking at the monitor. And I went over to him. I said, "Okay, you have to explain this to me." And they go, "What, Rick?" And I go, "Why are we filming this stunt double when Emily Blunt, Benicio del Toro, Hugo Weaving are sitting in their trailer? We only have Emily Blunt for 2 nights. We're filming in the summer

102:53in England. It gets dark at 10:00. It gets light at 4:00 in the morning. It's going to be light in 2 hours. This is one of the 2 days that we have Emily Blunt. Why are we not filming her?" And they all looked at each other and they go, "Yeah, that Why are we not filming her? What are most There must be a reason, you know." Yeah, the movie was cursed. Pardon the pun. But isn't John Landis's son involved in some sort of a remake of American Werewolf? Uh he it's been announced that he was going to do that. I don't know if it's ever going to happen. Those things happen all the time, you know. I Well, they announce it and then it just sort of Yeah, and Guillermo del Toro every other week there's some film that he's going to make that and some of them happen, some of them don't, you know. Well, he's a big fan of monster films, right? and he again I think he's He was a part

103:41of The Strain, wasn't he? That the film? Yeah. The television show. Yeah, and and I met Guillermo. First, he was a makeup artist. He used to be a makeup artist in Mexico. And he was a Dick Smith student and a fan, you know, Dick Smith fan. And Dick introduced me to him and Guillermo came to my studio as a fanboy makeup artist first and um I did Hellboy with with him and I was in The Strain. He he has me killed by one of the strigoi in The Strain. The Strain starts off great, the book does. The book's really good for like 3/4 of the way through and then it seems like they just kind of tried to finish it. Mm. You know, it's like very compelling in the beginning. It's like an interesting storyline. Like, okay, I see what's going on. I'm I'm not much of a reader. I'm kind of dyslexic, so I have a really hard time reading and Do you listen to books on tape? I you know, it

104:28doesn't work for me either. Oh, really? Yeah, I I I always say I have too many voices in my head as it is, you know. But I when I'm when I'm working, I mean, I have a real hard time, you know, like if you do a red carpet thing and there's people talking on either side, it short-circuits my brain. Right. And they ask me a question and I'm just hearing these other people and I words don't want to come out of my mouth, you know. And it's kind of that way when I'm working and I think part of it, like I said, I was an only child. I I learned working in a room by myself. Right. And in in quiet, you know. Right. I like it that way. I mean, I if I sculpt or paint, I listen to music, but if I do stuff on the computer, I'll I'll do a lot of designs on the computer and stuff or and I do some computer animation stuff for fun. I can't have any other any sounds and stuff. Yeah, you just

105:14need to be focused. If I you know, my wife knows this very well. If I'm trying to answer an email and she's like talking to me, I just totally screw it up. I mean, I Your brain just doesn't work that well. I did a a book signing the other night. Uh um and if people are talking when I'm signing my name, I wrote I wrote the I asked a person how to spell their name and then they they were saying something else and I I screwed up their book, wrote their name wrong. I've written my name wrong. In in the book there's a a picture some drawings I did as a kid and one I did in pen and ink of Dracula and I wanted to be because it was pen and ink and I couldn't erase it. I you know, got out of Famous Monsters to make sure I spelled Dracula right and very carefully was looking at the letters and writing in in pen and ink. It says Drac Lila and I did a painting for my wife uh this kind of romantic

106:07old painting um you know, it was for Valentine's Day and I wanted to I didn't know how to spell Valentine's, so I looked it up and I very carefully painted Valentine time. Uh again, thank god that um my career choice worked out because I couldn't work in an office and I'm sure I'd be a homeless guy now. I mean, my brain just doesn't work like a normal person. Well, but it with the way it does work is wonderful. The way your brain can focus on the things that you really love and that you figure out how to how to get it to focus correctly. Just shut the music off. Just be alone. Yeah, and I I it surprises me that I can do that, you know, and and but and and I really get in the zone. I really focus on what I'm doing. And to me, I mean, the funny thing is I mean, my I think I started saying this before I was talking about not wanting to be a businessman and stuff and people are

106:59always surprised that I'm hands-on still, you know. Uh A lot of other people who have for example, Stan Winston who was great and did some great stuff and was great for the makeup industry and and and helped to uh advance the state of the art was a businessman more than a a hands-on guy. He hired people to do the work and he he had a good eye and he would contribute stuff, but he rarely sculpted the stuff. I try to sculpt the stuff. I design the stuff, you know. I'm and and I'm always surprised when people go I paint and sculpt and do all these things, you know, and and when people see one of my paintings, they go, "You can paint?" You know, and it's like they're shocked that I can paint. And I go, "You can sculpt?" You know, I have a there's a bronze gorilla at the LA Zoo uh it's a sculpture that I did. Uh and people go, "You can sculpt?" You know, I go, "Yeah,

107:51it's part of what I do." Yeah, that's where the werewolf came from. But yeah, I don't know where I was going with that. But yeah, I think that there's ever a project that could come up that could tempt you into coming out of retirement? If somebody listens to you on this podcast and realizes that a lot of people with you while you worked and said, "Rick, we could do something amazing. Just one more." You know, when I first retired, I I would've said yes. I mean, I I was leaving it open that I said, "Well, I'll maybe do designs or or consult, you know." I'm having way too much fun doing my own thing, you know, I mean, I I still probably have the remains of my Halloween makeup. You know, Halloween is a big thing in my family and I'm so sorry that I didn't send you a copy of the book. It's got some I'll get it. Don't worry. When I get it, I'll put it on Instagram.

108:40Well, it's not so much about that. I just think if you're a fan, I think you'd like it. I mean, I'm I'm blown away by the response that I'm getting That's awesome. from people. I mean, they're loving it. It's not a cheap book. It's like 250 bucks, you know, but it's weighs 17 lb. It's two volumes. And with 2,000 pictures in it uh from birth basically to my last film and beyond, you know, in in my retirement, but I don't know where I was going with that. What did you ask me? Well, we were talking about possibly coming out of retirement. You were saying how much fun you're having right now. No, I I I seriously doubt that anything would would get me back. great to hear. Well, cuz it's It's not great because I would love it if you did another movie, but it's great to hear that you're having such a good time. Well, you know, one of the things I I I um when I watched um Breaking Bad Mhm. uh

109:25and Bryan Cranston, you know, is such a great actor, but I said, you know, he would make a great Lon Chaney if they ever did a remake of Man of a Thousand Faces, which was the story of Lon Chaney. Uh he would be the perfect person, you know, besides being a great actor. And uh my wife Sylvia and I went to a Comic-Con and went to a uh panel that they had on Breaking Bad and and we went back and I met Brian and and and Vince and and I said that to him, you know, and then went "Hm." You know, and and I don't know, maybe if that happened, you know, I uh I don't think anybody would go see that film now and you know, or how many people even know who Lon Chaney is now, you know. Yeah. Uh but he the the to be able to recreate some of those makeups on an actor like that, you know, and if it was the right people, but again, I I realized you know, I mean death became a more real thing to me

110:16when my parents died. And I have friends that were younger than me that are dead now. One of my favorite crew, one of my best guys and just recently passed at 50 four or something. Um and I know there's an end in sight and I know, you know, I've got arthritis, my I've got cataracts uh I I there's a limited time that I have left to do the things I want to do and I want to do what I want to do. You know what I mean? And I don't want the frustration and the stress and Beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful. Look, you already did it, you know? I mean, you made some of the most amazing movies ever. I mean, you know, if I died today, which I hope I don't, I mean, I would be happy with what I've accomplished. And that was another thing with the book. I mean, when you see it laid out there in in in 800 pages, you know, uh uh you're saying, well, I've made a lot of in my time, you know? Yeah, I've

111:06made a lot of stuff and and I'm proud of what I made, you know, I mean you do the best you can in the circumstances and I fight one of the things that uh I realized when I read the book, too, uh which Cameron Publishing, who did the book and and Jonathan Rinzler, who who wrote it, who who did He interviewed me a lot and he also went back to old articles and old things at the time and did a really nice job of weaving the story together. But when I read it, I thought, God, you know, uh what a pain in the ass I am, but I fight for what I think is right. For example, The Grinch How the Grinch Stole Christmas uh they wanted me to paint Jim Carrey green and that was it. You know. And it was like, well, I mean, I think they wanted to say hair, too, you know, but Right. But I go, come on, you know, it's not called How the Green Jim Carrey Stole Christmas. It's Grinch Stole

111:56Christmas, he should be a Grinch, you know. So I did like I do many times on myself like I did in The Wolf Man. I make myself up and I film some stuff and I show them. So I made myself up what I thought the Grinch should look like. I filmed some stuff. I cut it together. I showed it to them and go, you got to This is cooler than the green Jim Carrey. I'm sorry, you know, and they go, "Well, it doesn't look like Jim Carrey." I go, "No, because it's on me." And they go, "But again, it's not the green Jim Carrey, you know." Right. And it it seems to me it should be this character not just, you know, and I fought and fought and fought and I ended up doing a thing um where I decided to use the internet uh to help me get my point across. So there was a uh uh uh uh internet movie site at the time that uh was popular and and I knew the guy who ran it was was a fan and I said, "Can you

112:45uh say that you saw this test that I did and that the guys at Universal are making a big mistake, you know, and just let the fans chime in." So there was like thousands of responses. "What the hell's wrong with these idiots that are running the movie studios? It shouldn't I don't want to see a green Jim Carrey, I want to see a Grinch." You know. So like 2 weeks before we started filming, they they changed because of this. Wow. And and I had sent, you know, I only sent the copy of my test to to Brian Grazer and and Ron Howard. And Ron's going, "How did this guy get hold of this copy of the uh tape?" And I go, "I don't know, I only sent it to you and and Brian, you know." And I mean, I didn't let him know what I did at the time, you know. Now I don't care cuz it came it's I think the movie's better for it, you know. Sure. And uh in fact, even at an Oscar party um

113:32one of the executives at the studio came up to me and said, you know, thank you for for doing the Grinch and and for arguing with us cuz I you were the decision was right. It was definitely right. You turned him into the Grinch. He really was the Grinch. But I thought I was going to get hit by a meteor or something. Like, this is not right. I An executive never tells you that stuff, you know, you know, but but I again, I mean, I I fight cuz it's my work and if my name's on it, I want it to be of a certain quality, you know, and and it's not easy to get it done that way, you know, and and uh it's part of the battle, you know, and and uh but it's also part of the frustration, you know. So now I only have to fight with myself, you know. Beautiful. Listen, man, thank you very much for coming here. It's been an honor and uh really I was really looking forward to this. It's a real treat for

114:19me to get to sit down and talk to you. Oh, thank you so much. I'm I'm I'm glad we do. I figure anybody that has an American Werewolf in their lobby can't be a bad guy, you Thank you, Rick. Appreciate it, man. My pleasure. Bye, everybody. Thank you.