Dom D'Agostino & Layne Norton

00:00here we go four three O two one and we're live gentlemen thanks for being here appreciate it let everybody know who you are Lane I'm a meathead who likes science got no bodybuilding when I was young and then did a BS in biochemistry PhD in nutritional science kept liftin did powerlifting won two national championships got silver medal at Worlds seda then world squat record and did also bodybuilding and won a natural Pro card they actually have natural bodybuilding believe it or not and throughout that time just you know when I first got into it one magazine said one thing and even in the same magazine they have an article one month next month it would contradict it and so I was like I'm just gonna try and figure this out for myself so which is the place there are a lot of people listening or at right now yeah it's it's tough because it's kind of like who do you trust

01:00because nope not everybody has the time or the energy to go and do a degree in this stuff so but that was me I kind of got down the rabbit hole of all right let's try and figure this nutrition stuff out and of course the more I learned the more I realized I didn't know but yeah it just became a passion for me to enter this day I'm still very I love this stuff this is what gets me up gets me going well guys like you are very important guys who actually trained very hard and really understand the science this is because it's usually one or the other yeah absolutely yeah and I liked what I was doing I graduate my PhD in 2010 when we started we actually both knew each other from the bodybuilding.com message boards so those back before social media train together back in two thousand six or seven seven and experimental biology so this big there's a big symposium

01:49every year for science geeks and we were both going to it and we found out about each other on the forums and we went and trained together and he's a he's a beast and yeah we really hit it off and we've been friends since then so for everybody who's looking for a fight so sorry we're probably gonna be pretty friendly well it's gonna be a conversation we don't need to have a fight and Dom you've been on the podcast before but for people listen to that one please tell them who you are what you do yeah keep the sucker yeah yeah sure I will getting back I majored in nutrition actually as an undergrad but didn't actually see a career in it that much so I went into neuroscience the net 90s was a decade of the brain and my my you know formal training is in neuroscience and it got steered towards basically changing the neuropharmacology of the brain with nutrition and that's what the ketogenic

02:40diet does and it has tremendous benefits I think for military personnel which is um funded by the Office of Naval Research and the Department of Defense to develop ketogenic strategies to enhance readiness resilience and and performance and safety and military personnel and what what did why specifically does the ketogenic diet help military people I know there's a thing with Navy SEALs with preventing yeah yeah so central nervous system oxygen toxicity a limitation of that is or limitation of Navy SEAL diving is oxygen toxicity seizures and anti epileptic drugs are not really a viable option because they can their side effects they can decrease cognitive you know resilience physical resilience a ketogenic strategy is something that's being studied down from a basic science mechanistic perspective to animal work to now human studies so it's not you know out in the field yet but some guys

03:40are actually doing it and I study the science of that so when people who don't understand what we're saying for some folks who have epilepsy the ketogenic diet has been shown to stop seizures absolutely go Google the Charlie Foundation so that's how I actually got linked in and actually a natural drug-free bodybuilder his name was Mike dancer and he had severe terminal epilepsy Google Mike dancer ketogenic diet and you'll find an amazing story about a guy who used nutrition to manage his epilepsy when drugs failed and he used it to prep and win bodybuilding shows and compete and body boom and the rebreathers sometimes caused seizures with some of the soldiers they can so for example just fifty feet of sea water using a closer rebreather like a dragger rebreather at 50 feet of seawater your potential for getting oxygen toxicity seizure can occur in just 10 minutes so that's a

04:35little bit of time and that's not very deep so there's no way to predict that and there's no way as of now to prevent that so we study physiological biomarkers that could warn people of an impending seizure and we also develop countermeasures to mitigate oxygen toxicity seizures I focus mostly on drugs I'm in a pharmacology and physiology department but I realized that people with epilepsy the ketogenic diet was more effective than drugs so I got steered into you know nutrition which was my undergrad and then that kicked off about 10 years ago and I've just been deep into probably a dozen or more different applications of nutritional ketosis awesome and lean up and pay attention to online for a long time one of the things I do a great job with is just calling on I mean you love to call clearly but whenever people are overstating claims or people get ridiculous and I think

05:28this is one of the things that is a problem with any diet where people get really enthusiastic about it that becomes an ideology whether it's the ketogenic diet or the carnivore diet or them you know fill in the blanks vegan diet people decide this is the end-all be-all it's gonna cure cancer make you smarter - dicks gonna grow a foot all these things are gonna happen and you do a great job of calling on that kind of stuff yeah I mean I I'm not anti Kido I'm not anti vegan I'm anti and one of the problems we have is nutrition is replacing religion for a lot of people so you find something that you identify with and then people start to try to say because they identify with that movement or like for example vegans they identify with many of them protection of animals not my job to judge their ethics on that sort of thing but then they kind of try to backtrack

06:22to find the science to support them as well and they pick and choose and this is guilty of all groups not just vegans this is also a lot of ketogenic diet sell its carnivore diet whatever have you if it has the word diet they're zealots out there who are going after it and I will stick up for I've stuck up at a scientific conference for the ketogenic diet you were we were having a roundtable about something different and somebody said well we know that the ketogenic diet impairs exercise performance and endurance athletes and I said I don't think that's necessarily true you know the the it's pretty ambivalent they are ambiguous as to whether or not it does it seems to be kind of individual but on the whole on the average it doesn't seem to impair exercise performance so it's kind of what you like but when you have people who you know like like a Gary Taubes who

07:12says well calories don't matter it's all carbohydrates that sort of thing on the carbohydrate insulin model of obesity I mean the research is you're able to do a lot of hand waving about insulin and you know will you burn so much fat when you're on a high-fat diet which is true by the way you you burn a lot of fat but what they don't talk about is that it's it's overall fat balance how much fat you store versus how much fat you burn and when you're on a high-fat diet you store a lot of fat you also burn a lot of fat the overall caloric balance is what determines whether or not you will have net storage or net deposition it's same thing for a high carb diet as well you know this idea that with high insulin it just completely shuts down all fat burning everywhere that's just not true now if you have high carbohydrate you will burn less fat but you're also storing less fat as well and

08:02again the net caloric balance is going to be what determines how much you store because you don't really store carbohydrate as fat for most people they did a study overfeeding women where they overfed them 50% above their caloric maintenance and they found that of 282 grams of fat that they stored during a day in adipose only four grams came from carbohydrate 278 came from fat so glucose what about fructose so fructose causes we think you know non-alcoholic fatty liver disease so that could be you know that's de novo de novo lipogenesis is higher with fructose and you think about people consuming it in liquid drinks a hundred to 200 grams a day which is not uncommon even for my wife not uncommon so fructose does seem to have a little bit of different hepatic metabolism but I was actually across the hall from a professor who was doing a lot of the research on on fructose and obesity and

08:59fatty liver disease and even he came to the conclusion that if you overfeed fructose and it creates a caloric Serpentor and you're overfeeding fructose then you can have some wonky stuff start to go on relative to other macros diet is try to keep this right next to your face sorry got it that's what she says so powerful I talked about and a lot it's good so if you're if you're doing that if you're creating that caloric surplus what you find is when you're in net storage when you're driving more nutrients into adipose and sometimes liver depending on metabolism but it takes it takes a lot of fructose to do that and a caloric surplus you start to create a lot of walky stuff going on the mitochondria starts to become dysfunctional and you know people make a big deal about oh well you have we have claimed now that everything causes obesity and type 2 diabetes for

09:55first it was fats then carbohydrates and there's actually professors out there who actually will claim that protein gives you diabetes a nice time for a second I mean the mitochondria becomes dysfunctional how does the mitochondrial how does that happen okay so I'm gonna state for everybody that I'm going out on a limb this is my opinion okay if you look at the research on obesity and diabetes what happens is you have everything start to elevate in the blood stream so if you measure like there was a professor who thought that branch chain amino acids were causing obesity because they were elevating the blood stream during our sorry during type 2 diabetes well yeah branch chain amino acids are elevated so fatty acids so try cell glycerides so is glucose so is it really those things causing it or is it possible that when you are over feeding relative to

10:48what you burn relative to that turnover that mitochondria start to become dysfunctional probably a lot due to inactivity and the mitochondria is as we call the powerhouse of the cells you probably learned in high school biology or whatever they taught it to you as that is where everything fluxes through so that is where you're creating a teepee that's where you're burning through lipids carbohydrates that sort of thing if that becomes dysfunctional and you're not getting enough flux enough pull through that mitochondria what happens is you start to back up every part of metabolism so all the metabolic byproducts almost all of them inhibit everything within the cell there's a metabolomics signature for that and and epiphenomenon if you want to call it that we elevated branched chain amino acids so consequence of that and in some people yeah so these things start these

11:40byproducts these metabolic byproducts because you're not flexing enough through the cell they start accumulating within the cell and start to inhibit the Krebs cycle glycolysis and so everything starts backing up to the point where you also start inhibiting the insulin receptor and now you have glucose fatty acids and amino acids also backing up to the point where they start to over spill into the bloodstream and you see these this accumulation of all of them in the bloodstream in type 2 diabetes and I actually think that again me going on a limb that obesity doesn't cause type 2 diabetes and type 2 diabetes doesn't cause obesity that they develop in concert from the same problem which is over feeding under activity hmm so a lot of it is about how much nutrients you're fluxing into cells versus how much energy you're creating fluxing them through the cell and out so when you're

12:33overfeeding whether it be carbohydrate fat you're flexing more energy in then you can dispose of and now you have to do something with it well when you run out of when you do that much to it and mitochondria start to become dysfunction dysfunctional you start to not have enough places to put it away and start spilling into the bloodstream and now you cause all kinds of problems so one of the things that we really wanted to talk about here is high carb versus low carb because this is a just a giant point of contention today nutrition especially in terms of athletes with performance in mind that's it's a big factor whether or not high carb or low carb is a way to go and there's a lot of zealots on both sides and there's a lot of and there's a lot of you know online experts and one of the great thing about bringing you two guys in here is because you could really

13:22actually explain the science behind it now you've been great laying at pointing out that there's it's not a magic bullet and you know and so many people like to sort of stress it that way that they like to portray a ketogenic diet is this is it this is the end-all be-all I figured out what to do this is the way everyone should be eating you don't think so I don't think so because if you look at the weight loss problem in our society and I'm writing a book called fat loss forever well I talked about this in detail we don't have a weight loss problem six out of every seven people are able to lose a significant amount of body weight in their life who are obese or overweight the problem is the weight regain statistics are absolutely like terrifying within one year seventy percent will put it all back on within two years it's 85% within three years it's 95 percent so

14:18that means diets have a 95 percent failure rate and of those people one-third to two-thirds will add more than they originally lost and this gets kind of into yo-yo dieting and I talk about that as well but the the real problem is that people don't stick to pick something that's sustainable for them all the research if there's one bit of research out there that that we have that shows how to create lasting weight loss and you look at the people who are the 5 percent who actually keep it off it's that they pick something that's sustainable whether it be ketogenic whether it be low carb high or low fat whatever it is vegan something that they can sustain and make a lifestyle if because if you look at meta analyses for our listeners meta analyses are kind of a study of studies so they take researchers take studies that have similar parameters and they kind of lump them together

15:15and they look at ok what's the consensus amongst these studies and they have advanced statistics they use to run this if you look at low carb versus low fat there's no difference in adherence overall on the whole there's no difference and there's no difference in weight loss there's no difference in blood lipids even glycemic control so there was a study where they met analysis of I think it was 23 studies over 3,000 people where they looked at okay if you control calories so calories are equated does low-carb versus low-fat make a difference on weight loss glycemic control those necessarily the ketogenic diet so by definition we have an objective biomarker that defines the ketogenic diet it's the only diet that actually has something that you you know you can measure in your blood to say you're on this diet and when your ketone levels are elevated that confers many

16:07different benefits that I believe can enhance adherence to the diet before we get into the woods here I want to clarify one thing yep the difference between someone being on a diet being able to sustain it and not being able to standing gaining all that weight back isn't that a discipline issue well partly but we kind of had to start looking at okay if we if we go and maybe maybe circle we have to find what requires the least amount of discipline for somebody to stick to because discipline is is while some people have more some people have less it is a finite resource so when do we normally find that people like to kind of drop off whatever they're doing it's when they're stressed out work stressing them out they're going through a divorce those kinds of things right that's where our discipline kind of wanes because we're trying to be so disciplined for

17:04this other thing and it's draining us so what happens with with diet is in people who are busy people who have a lot of stress in their life that's where they really start overeating so we have to find something that require I look at this let's find something that requires the minimal amount of discipline for a person so that when your life goes to absolute you can still stick to it and so for some people that is a very very individual thing and they see this in the dietary studies that what works for one person to create a deficit and sustainable isn't the same way for another person and Dom even commented on this about his wife chilla she does much better on a higher ratio of carbohydrates to fat yeah I mean early on it was obvious that she wasn't gonna change her diet I the time that we met like 10 years ago most we I was really getting into this and I really

17:57felt that for me at least but she would stop at checkers and you don't get a burger and sugary drinkin and she's a tremendously carb intolerant she was very skinny as a kid and she tolerant carbohydrate carbohydrate tolerance yeah intolerant yeah yeah so and and you know if the diet low carb I feel and maybe in ketogenic putting in it under that umbrella works I think for up to 25 to 30 percent of people especially if their carbohydrate intolerant and I believe that it does that by virtue of elevating ketones shifting your the neuropharmacology of the brain for example it works through ghrelin it works through there's new science emerging right now showing that appetite regulation is influenced positively by nutritional ketosis in ways that we're just starting to learn now well you can certainly feel it it's one of the things about the ketogenic diet when you're in

19:00that state all of a sudden you're just not hungry to say it's not an overwhelming need for food yeah I'm I haven't had anything to eat today I mean when I was eating massive plates of pasta 25 years ago and I went to this this long without food I would start getting shaky I would I would have a hypoglycemic response and I'm completely resilient to that and that has major implications for military personnel being keto adapted not just for performance preventing seizures and I think for cognitive function too but you it's very liberating so meal frequency is not an issue so if you're in austere environments where you have limited food availability that becomes a major issue and if you're working as a scientist and you can't you know you're working with animals you're doing experiments you don't have time to eat I need to maintain that cognitive function I need to be sharp you know

19:52with limited food so it worked very good for me throughout my professorship you know getting and things like that where I could just put more time and energy into my work without having to stop prepare a meal eat a meal clean up like I think I wasted a lot of time doing that when I was eating five to six meals a day he said something that I think you've called on before the phrase and carb intolerant so yeah so that was actually gonna be one of the things that's cuz I hey we have some we can disagree about because carb tolerance carb carb would you would say if it's how we define that yes yes so if you define it by a blood marker your glucose responds to a meal okay so a couple of things I want to come right out and frame this whole discussion real quick so we both agree that in terms of weight loss and body composition that your total calorie intake per day is the most

20:42important thing correct yes I believe the ketogenic strategy is a way to regulate that right so with with carbon tolerance if if you look at the benefits of like on blood glucose blood lipids it is almost 90 to 95 percent explained by weight loss so beauty you can take people put them on a high carb very low fat diet their blood glucose and their blood lipids will drop even with like higher insulin levels than people who are on a low-carb diet if they're my calorie restrict yes if their calorie restricted now again that that becomes a very individual thing I you know if somebody says hey I like a ketogenic diet because for me it helps me to create a calorie deficit I can stick to it hey knock yourself out that is no problem but that is not always going to work some people don't feel that satiate on a ketogenic diet there are people who do feel hungry or on that so that is a

21:40very individual response and again when we look at studies we're looking at means right so we're talking about averages and there are outliers like if you look at any gaussian distribution chart which is kind of how populations distribute based on a certain treatment you have about 60 to 70 percent that fall into the average then you have another you know 1020 percent that are kind of do a little bit better one way versus the other and then you have 5% on either end that are sorry two and half percent on either ended liars right so just to frame this again let's take weightlifting we know weightlifting makes you bigger and stronger right like that is not up for debate we agree on that there are studies that have shown that some people who are beginners where you should be gaining a lot of muscle very quickly some people will go from the first time they walk in the gym squat -

22:275 12 weeks ago there's squatting 400 pounds some people don't get stronger they've actually been studies where over 12 weeks there's a few individuals who did not get stronger so those are your outliers right there so if we circled us back to ketogenic diet I'm not sitting here and saying that somebody may actually physiologically do better on a ketogenic diet versus a lower fat diet that's a very individual response but when we start making recommendations for people what we should start with is okay created calorie deficit that allows you to lose some weight because if we look at the studies and we look at if we equate for protein because that's a big thing so if you look at some of the studies where Volek did where he compared like your kind of food guide pyramid type diet to a ketogenic diet the ketogenic diets were a little bit higher protein that protein has a

23:18thermogenic effect and also an appetite suppression effect when you equate for those and there's been 32 studies there was a recent meta-analysis done of 32 studies is equated for calories and protein absolutely no difference in fat loss when you equate for those two calories and protein because protein is a big one because protein has a big benefit on thermogenesis and weight loss also a lean body mass for attention which is huge because one of the reasons people regain weight is because when they lose weight they tend to lose fat and muscle and when they regain it it's almost all fat in the initial phase as far as that did it may not have included data with the ketogenic diet so I know you know when I did the die I've seen a lot of blood work so for example my hemoglobin a1c triglycerides HSC RP goes down insulin goes down blood pressure goes down and that that all those all

24:11those changes happened without my body weight changing so that would kind of argue against that you needed a count deficit and I've seen it many times but one you could I could be eating 80 to 90% carbs and reduced my body weight and get changes in all that I could actually increase my carbs and if I create a calorie deficit you know my hemoglobin h1c will go down my sugar will go down and things like that so that is really the dry that's like that trumps everything that calorie deficit so that's an important thing so that's what and that's what I think a lot of people miss okay and I think that that what I'll say is sorry I'm just saying so like I think that's very powerful to that these changes that I just mentioned can occur without with without changing your body weight so they are just you know you're fundamentally changing your metabolism when you do that from car and

25:04that has pretty wide-ranging implications so I think that what I'm gonna say is that if you if we're going to talk about people getting healthier the first thing we need to start with is let's not lose 50% arguing about 5% right so if I tell somebody hey find a diet you can stick to that's sustainable and if you can lose 10% you can lose 10% of your body weight even for obese people they get almost all the health benefits in the first 10% now now maybe some people like you or people who respond really well to a ketogenic diet I'm not again there's outliers or people on the other sides of the Gaussian curve if you do a little bit better on there then great but if you find a ketogenic diet is completely unsustainable for you and you're not you're not able to stick to it but you're trying to do it because you're trying to get a little bit better blood glucose regulation you're you're

25:56you know you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot because if you could stick to it like let's say for the individual a higher carb diet was easier for them to stick to they could lose weight on that then that's the bulk of their health benefits they're gonna get from it I'm having a hard time with these terms easier because I don't know exactly why it would be easier wouldn't be easier and I always wonder again is this a discipline issue because that's that's your experience yeah it comes for sure food preference but I believe that by when you follow low-carb not even ketogenic diet the variability of the fluctuations in your end and and blood-glucose the postprandial dip in blood glucose that you get after you that's virtually abolished or significantly attenuated and then you have you know ketones and are working through ghrelin for example you could

26:47just you could eat a normal diet and drink ketones and it's actually suppressing your appetite through ghrelin so we know that these changes or reductions in girl and you're saying yeah okay so so these changes sort of are happening but they're my sister for example you know followed the ketogenic diet and found it easy to follow but she gained weight because she was eating all these fat bombs that she was making so she and a lot of people don't necessarily need a nutritionist to tell them what they did but they need like a nutritional psychotherapist or something you know their relationship with food is really and I think that's what Lane has a firm grasp on there's no substitute for experience and Lane has worked with so many different clients and knows that you know you could probably follow the ketogenic that your listeners are probably fans occasionally diet I can do

27:38it I love fatty food you know I've have food low carb food but generally speaking it's you know you have to approach it from the perspective sort of eating behavior and I think that that's really people want to go off the diet it's just a natural human trait yeah it's a weird psychological trait right yeah just want to cheat you want to just stuff your face with cupcakes every now and then and then you just you feel like it's too much torture to keep yourself on this narrow path of high fat low carb moderate protein but you know five years ago ten years ago that was the case but now there's ketogenic brownies or as ketogenic cookies there's many different food companies like shake check out every time yeah well they are evolving just you know food technology is evolving some of them no foods make some good stuff go to go to keto nutrition ORD and there are some things there

28:39another I would say about 10 or 20 percent passed the test meaning that they taste okay and they actually do what they say they actually elevate ketones you know don't cause a glycemic response some of those keto cookies seem like they have no foundation like you bite in they like they go away like as you're eating them it's like they dissolve you know they're not like you have like a good Toll House cookie a good real chocolate chip cookie and you bite into that sucker you know it's bad for you but god damn it feels good while it's being you tried the quest protein cookies yes they're pretty good yeah they can't with real cookies yeah well I dip I dip them in like sour cream right and then I eat them coconut cream so that then it becomes a J you bring that up interesting though if you look at people that think they're addicted to sugar or that sugars a lot if you look

29:34at things like cookies and cakes you know it's actually they have more calories from fats than they do sugars it's sugar and fat together is hyper palatable right so we know one of the things I was was gonna bring up is you know this idea that sugar is so inherently bad and you said the cookie you know we view that as an inherently bad thing but what if I told you that there are certain people not everybody everybody's different but there are certain people who if you tell them hey you can have that cookie every once in a while if you track it working into your macronutrient intake that that's fine that that actually improved their adherence to diet so because you give them a reward no not a reward system you're not a dog don't reward yourself out okay because because increased flexibility actually usually improves adherence so we see this actually with training to athletes

30:24are when you do a flexible training model where they have to get a certain amount of training but they kind of can pick and choose their self which days are hard and which days are a little bit they actually do better diet is very similar to that so now you always have to sacrifice something in order to if you want to lose weight right so if you're doing a ketogenic diet what you're sacrificing is saying well I like the spontaneous reductions in appetite so I don't mind eating not these foods so I can get that if you're doing like kind of what I don't wanna say I popularized it but myself and some other people on the message boards popularize something called flexible dieting where you can essentially whatever you want as long as you hit your protein carbohydrate and fat targets now what you're sacrificing is okay you're tracking every day do you find that through an app through what an

31:11app uh no I'm old school I actually just do it through Excel I've got my girlfriend Holly she has an app on her phone and like she she has me like if she's driving sick Oh were you put in when I just ate I'm like baby I don't even I know I had no idea how to work this thing you know so because when I went to do my graduate studies I mean I wanted to find magic foods I wanted to find something that would Sikhism how else can you make a living you have to set yourself apart I mean if I'm over here saying it's hard for me to sell what I what I do because I'm saying well you everything in moderation and you got to be diligent and you got to have these behaviors and that doesn't sound sexy when there's another guy over here saying nah bro it's just carbs I know what tabble isms complicated and everything but it's just carbs you know when I started working with people and

32:00I've worked with over 1500 people coaching in nutrition online over the past 13 years which actually probably taught me more than my my PhD did what I found was is that people were so different individually in terms of what what made them tick you know now I feel like I should probably go back and get some kind of a missing tip biologically what makes them tick or psychologically both both so I can't sit here and say by the research that that carbohydrate versus fat makes a difference on fat loss but what I can tell you is that some people just seem to do better on lower carb higher fat but also some people I worked with just seem to do better with higher carb lower fat now whether that's a psychological thing or a physiological thing it's hard to tease automatically to I thank him yeah we all have different snips you know that yeah you know some people have

32:51suppressed fatty acid oxidation pathways others are like screaming fat metabolizers you know or fat or sugar metabolizers yeah you know so but if you look at I remember I had a conversation with them with the researcher dr. nakamora Illinois who was doing some of that fructose stuff when I was when I was a first-year grad student I said what's this this high fructose corn syrup this is what's causing obesity right and he's like well it's easy to over-consume you know like if you take a dot a soda and you drink it you're not less hungry than you were it's not very say she a ting he said but if you're if you're controlling your calories it doesn't seem to be more like purgenik am parable carbohydrate no and I thought remember thinking but that can't be right I told these people say that high fructose corn syrup is like the worst thing in the world for you there was there was a few

33:41studies that really changed my opinion on sugar now the listeners are gonna hear this and think that I'm advocating for sugar I'm not you're not talking about in the context of a calorie surplus which is kind of explains the state of the United States you know so if you look at sugar intake there's so this kind of gets back to the carbohydrate insulin obesity model if you look at sugar intake over the last 50 years or last hundred years it went up very steadily with obesity until around the mid 90s and then it took a sharp dip while obesity continued to climb now again that's just correlation data but if you do look at the the overall calorie intake versus obesity rates it's like an r-squared of like 0.9 4 which is really really killer include high fructose corn syrup is that lumped into so this was added sugars this was added sugars but there was a study done

34:36by a metabolic ward study so again I stop you there yeah are you saying that this is added sugars not high fructose corn syrup so when you talk about the graph of consumption that sugar dropped off but high fructose corn syrup did not is that because that took over many of the products so this increase in obesity but a decrease in sugar consumption but you're not saying a decrease in high fructose corn syrup consumption so I don't know that I'd have to look that up so here's here's me being a scientist and saying the three magic words I don't know one of the last Congress's I went to showed that like the rise over the last 10 to 15 years like skyrocketing with high fructose corn syrup and because sugar was taken out high fructose corn syrup is subsidized but farmers a lot cheaper and it was would you agree that it's essentially your body weight processes

35:25it is essentially the same sugar versus high fructose corn syrup Howry well so sugar sucrose is 50% glucose 50% fructose high-fructose corn syrup is 55% fructose 45% glucose but if you're saying that that 5% is what's creating obesity yeah now again psychologically some people just down sodas like it's their job you know and if you're doing that especially as children that's a big big no-no whether it's the Mexican kind with the cane sugar we have kids now with hot with non-alcoholic fatty liver disease and that did not exist but I would say there's ago we got a little kid like kids and I think that's from corn syrup I think it's it's due to an excess surplus calories and those surplus calories being high fructose corn syrup so if you're if you're used to eating a certain amount of calories and you may and we back when we were actually maintaining your weight back in the

36:17before the 60s we were eating about 2200 calories a day that was the average and now it's like 2800 is the the average consumption the United States amongst adults what would you train but you train and you have a higher lean body mass so that's that's that's fine now some people yeah we that's a whole other rabbit hole yeah the if you if you start adding sodas in which aren't satiating at all they don't positively affect your hunger hormones but you continue your same normal food intake boom I mean you can start to store right yeah so but I can't tell somebody hey there's no way you can lose weight and drink a soda because that's not true there was a study done by Sir wit and they looked at a high glycemic diet versus low glycemic and I mean extreme they did one group had over a hundred grams of sugar a day another group had 10 grams or less per day or sorry was 11 grams or less per

37:16day and they looked at the differences in weight loss blood lipids all that kind of stuff the calories or carbohydrates of the group that ate 10 grams of sugar or less a day did they eat the same amount of total carbohydrates same amount of total carbs okay so low glycemic I see yeah processed carbs can spike your glucose more than sugar right so they did have a fire higher fiber intake but what well they did find that they had insulin responses to the meal the high sugar group did but no differences in weight loss so they both both groups lost weight the only real difference was the the the lower glycemic group had a little bit better both groups improved improved cholesterol the lower glycemic group had just a little bit better improvement probably because they were eating higher fiber which can bind cholesterol on you excreted I would like to see what

38:04happened if they equated so again it's it's creating that calorie deficit both groups lost weight now is it more difficult to create a calorie deficit if you're eating a lot of sugar yes okay so I always tell people your diet is like a budget if you're practicing something like flexible dieting right so if I've got somebody like myself who has above-average muscle mass hopefully I can say that and people on the internet probably okay I'll say it you have above-average muscle mass thank you so so if you have above-average muscle mass you train hard you have a faster metabolism naturally I mean I've seen people who could maintain their body weight on six seven thousand calories a day you have a higher metabolic rate you have a really big budget so if you make a hundred million dollars a year is it a big deal for you to go out and buy a five hundred thousand dollar sports car

39:00if you can still pay your mortgage and pay all the other requirements that you have no it's fine but if you make 80 grand a year should you go out and buy a five hundred thousand dollar sports car probably not right and if you make thirty you should be on Akito well you'd have increased food efficiency so it's the same thing so like people up so pop-tarts somehow became the the model of a flexible dieting movement because people were here's why it's kind of like counterculture like so pop tart shell it's out there it's like so whatever you have so clean eating became a thing amongst body buildings we we say eat clean even though there's no objective chicken baby there's no objective definition of that so people were like oh yeah well I'm getting shredded an idea pop tart every day right so a lot of your followers do that they do now no I donated I don't even like puck

39:58you know let me put some context to this so it's more about people saying hey I can still eat these foods I enjoy and I'm still losing weight because I'm with it I'm in a calorie deficit and I'm hitting my protein carb and fat targets but if you're somebody with a slow metabolism and you're not exercising very much and maybe all you're eating is a hundred grams of carbs a day should you spend 75 grams of those carbs on two pop-tarts hell no that's a terrible idea because you're not going to be able to hit your other micronutrients and those sorts of things but if you're eating 4,000 calories that I can Alberto Nunez friend of ours if you're eating 4,000 calories day and losing weight is it a big deal if he has to pop-tarts not really because he I actually had one competitor again a competitor who had such a fast metabolism that he was actually having a lot of GI dysfunction

40:48because he was eating like 700 grams of carbs and 200 grams of fat per day just to maintain his weight and he said I I feel bloated all the time and I said what are you eating like what are your foods it was chicken rice and broccoli and I said and some peanut butter for fats and I'm like well no wonder dude you're having 150 grams of fiber a day you're you're literally full of like your is like literally backed up to your esophagus okay so I said do me a favor eat some pizza eat some pop-tarts eat some more calorically dense foods and see how you feel after three days email me after three days he's like man I feel so much better I dropped like three pounds I feel amazing because he doesn't make any sense because they fired the Pop Tart generation he also inspired and I watched this play out on this baby sounds really bad well Lane actually inspired a generation of

41:41drug-free bodybuilders to go and do their PhDs you know and actually ones in my lab right right now is yeah amazing student and I think he he learned a lot just from watching Lena so but I think you know that it was amazing to see these guys eating that amount of pop-tarts and junk foods Emil and I learned a lot from that but I think they could do it with with better carbohydrates so so what works for performance what works for bodybuilding may not be is probably not optimal for longevity and health so that that's an important point you know lean wins I yeah the audio that's okay I know where he's coming from but you know I'd like to hear his opinion yeah so before you just do that why do you think that it would be an issue what what would be the issue with sugar and with pop-tarts and junk food what would be the negative effects biologically I think the accumulation of

42:42the postprandial spikes in glucose and insulin over time especially in the context of a calorie surplus could be a bad thing if you are doing a calorie surplus to example for example to gain weight and mass over time which bodybuilders do you know following contests in the offseason I think it's even more important almost to actually stick with foods carbohydrate sources that are lower glycemic you know you can only tolerate so much fiber but I think if you are running at calories or if you are doing a ketogenic diet and you have a calorie surplus that could be a bad thing your triglycerides will go up so you are you're putting too much fat in the system and that what if we go up on a higher carb diet diet too so I mean I kind of would stay along the lines of maybe protein but you just you know titrate it in in a reasonable amount but I just think that that the negative you

43:39know that could come out of that is that you're you you know I'm following a blood glucose curve right and insulin curve and and I see this very dramatically for example in my student who's a type one diabetic and Rakuten ik Susan and he wears a Dexcom a continuous blood glucose monitoring system and his insulin requirements dramatically dropped with low carb and his glucose fluctuations dramatically improved and that's going to pay big dividends probably if you have type 1 diabetes you ever you know the 10 top things on how humans die you have a greater risk for every one of those you know dramatic you know it cuts ten years off of your life if the tighter you can keep your glucose levels your blood glucose and your insulin levels that in the long run I feel it's going to pay big the science still has to show that I think it's not totally clear but I think we can for

44:37type 1 diabetics which I think we can apply that data to the population if they control their glucose levels that pays big dividends in the long run lane so a couple things you actually touched on a couple of points I was going to bring up but I want to adjust one thing first which is the higher postprandial insulin and those the negative effects on health so if you have they've done Studies on this on BMI versus insulin now BMI is a we can debate about how useful of a measure it is but in general reflects body fat in the average population not in lifters but in the average BMI by the way for people who are listening is a ratio of your height versus your weight that generally reflects obesity in your obese yeah so if you lift weights yes I'm morbidly obese it seems so silly it is but if you look at the general population who doesn't exercise it's actually pretty darn accurate gets

45:32factored into your insurance though some insurances will do like a waist chest measurement which which helps but anyway so postprandial insulin they've looked at the relationship between people who have their BMI x' and post prandial insulin they find that people with higher BMI have higher post prandial insulin but the opposite relationship does not hold true people who have higher insulin do not necessarily have higher BMI and they've done this in meta-analysis so what that says is again that if you are obese type-2 diabetic metabolic syndrome profile that you will have elevated levels of insulin because your body's becoming insensitive to it because of all the dysfunction that we talked about but just because you secrete higher insulin doesn't mean that you're going to have more body fat and there was a study done actually by one of the proponents of the carbohydrate insulin

46:27hypothesis that looked at what's called Mendelian randomization where basically the idea is you have different gene variants like we were talking about and if for example like they've done this with LDL cholesterol our sorry yes LDL cholesterol we believe most people believe the LDL cholesterol has some contribution towards heart disease it's a pretty I would say it's a pretty strong now people can over a controversial oh okay so dependent an individual when they look at these these gene variants people who have gene variants were they run lower LDL have lower rates of heart disease people who are higher higher rates of heart disease if you look at that with insulin at best insulin explains 10 percent of obesity at absolute best and that study actually showed a high level of bias it was between 1 to 10 percent so we're not i'm not putting out the the idea

47:26that maybe insulin has some effect talking about fasting insulin or postprandial in some overall overall I'm guessing probably more so fasting how to measure insulin I mean we have hemoglobin a1c for like you know so there was another there was another meta-analysis where they looked at higher carb versus lower carb diets equating calories looking at hba1c and saw that so the the differences in weight loss were no different like we've discussed when calories are equated but also the differences in hba1c reduction weren't different they were the same now you asked about health and you know consuming some of these quote-unquote bad foods if you do it in the but you said in the context of a caloric surplus right which is the important thing because they help to create a surplus but in a deficit the what's the downside because kind of when you talk to people

48:21who are not just not heated unique necessarily but proponents of quote-unquote clean eating which again has no real objective definition when you say ok well a pop-tart may be you can lose weight out but it can't be good for you okay well then we have to have some objective measurement to show this by right like cuz otherwise it's do you believe in magic okay so if you look at processed foods what they have found with processed foods is that you have a lower energy expenditure from them okay so you have a certain amount of what we call TEF thermic effect of food higher protein has a higher TEF than carbohydrate and fat okay so we know the higher protein diets actually cause more weight loss and better lean body mass retention part of that is through that the increase thermogenesis of the TF thermic effect of food well with processed foods you have a lower TEF

49:09okay but that doesn't mean you can't eat any processed foods and and lose weight you can it just means you might have to eat a little bit lower calories overall does that make sense if there was a ketogenic pop-tart and it was made with probably tastes like we know that if we almonds were probably you know or other nuts or things they just give me an example you know we don't fully digest assimilate and utilize those calories they pass through us so with the pop-tart I think it's pretty high with like raw like like a salad and with nuts and things like that like it becomes significant over time with pop-tart like you can basically a hundred percent of that is going into your system and it's causing a hormonal response so the food that we eat creates it's not only calories but creates a hormonal response and also from the brain perspective can change the neuropharmacology of your

50:05brain I mean that's how I got into the ketogenic diet because it fundamentally changes neurotransmitter systems and reward systems and things like that right but hormones people get so hung up on hormones and and if you look at the research data it just doesn't support it like with insulin what no no I went in terms of like losing weight and your your what happens with leptin and ghrelin and all those kinds of things that is a huge one of the one of the things we talked about before the podcast started we had about thirty minute podcast yeah you know people say things like one of the piet reasons people are really mistrustful of kind of the calories in calories out model is because it is viewed as a two isolated variables calories in and calories that are separate that's not true calories in affects calories out okay there are moving targets so people will

50:57say well I ate a calorie deficit I didn't lose weight no you ate and what you thought was a calorie deficit and you didn't lose weight but if you didn't lose weight it was not a calorie deficit by definition okay so it's you're retaining water or something yeah whose will we look at dieting like just dieting in general over time lowers your metabolic rate right so if you take somebody they actually did a rat study again rats but rats tend to respond pretty similar to humans into would you agree with that in terms of blood I mean you do a lot of rats is a lot of rats and mouse studies yeah I think there's a lot of good mother lap there yeah so again but we have to put that out there because we want to we don't want to oversell it they did a depends on the context of where you're studying of course yeah like animal studies can be helpful but you don't want to do like an insulin

51:48study in cows because cows are ruminants and they're they don't care about insulin anyway they took rats they took them through two diet cycles okay so this is kind of back to the yo-yo dieting thing and they looked at okay and they took obese rats dyed them down to a kind of normal level then they let the negative as much food as they wanted let him eat back to the original obese level dieded him down again to the previous level and then let him eat back up what they found was absolutely astonishing their food efficiency went so far up because their metabolic rate became suppressed every time they died it down your body has this self defense system that you activate every time you diet I talked about this in my shameless plug book so the first time they died if that's the kind of one times rate that they lost fat add when they let them regain it they regained it twice as fast

52:40as they lost it then the second time they tried to lose it they lost it at half the original rate then when they regained it the second time they get regained it three times as fast their food efficiency went way up yeah bility to lose it have you noticed as well what's that yes faster as well no no there they took him twice as long to lose the same amount of weight sorry I probably didn't explain it very well yeah I took him twice as long to lose the same amount of weight and they regained it in a third the time of the original so your body's getting accustomed to famine exactly because every time you diet and we see this with yo-yo dieters who spend how many people do you know that seem to be perpetually on a diet yeah but they just had that short over feeding period in between diets and then they it really does because every time you die you're activating your body's

53:30self defense system how many fighters do you know that every time they die it gets harder and harder for them to make weight well they're doing more than that they're cutting weight the cutting weight is ruthless they're essentially almost dying right but the part of that is they're they're having to crash diets super low so what is the signal you're telling your body because you have to always think about things from an evolutionary perspective my PhD advisor was great about this he'd always asked his name was dr. Donna layman brilliant guy and he would say why do you think the body did this well if you think about what are the regulatory mechanism becoming fat versus becoming too thin right so one one danger is you starve to death the other danger is you get so fat that a predator can come get you which is more dangerous in the last 20,000 years it's famine its famine so your body

54:22Prakrit smutch tighter self defense system there so when you diet your metabolic rate slows way down I mean if you've ever these guys who cut weight so by the time they're ready to get a fight for example their metabolic rates really slow then what happens after they they fight they eat a crap ton of food because they're they're they're ghrelin his way up left in his way down insulin his way down and they regain it really fast now what happened safe to assume just to interject that if you diet for 16 weeks for a show for example or a contest okay what what you actually educated me and like ten years ago and I thought there was this like post contest rebound and in two weeks there would be this anabolic window or fad they'd actually if you diet hard for 16 weeks to make way it takes an equal amount of time to get your metabolism actually to that level again maybe so Lane coined the

55:17term right reverse dieting reverse I don't know if I call I coined it we wanted it in Cuddy this with metabolic chambers and in rats and then use a variety of different approaches to determine how fast it it actually takes too to bring your metabolism back up and if different strategies can be used to ramp up your metabolism well because when you regain it you regain fat really quickly but your metabolic rate is more sluggish to return so they actually did a study with the Biggest Loser participants and this is why I'm so big on what what is sustainable it has to be sustainable they looked at so they lost out on average like quite a bit of weight I can't remember the exact numbers but they lost a bunch of weight over the 30 weeks because they starve them and they exercise the crap out of them and they saw that their metabolic rate dropped 500 calories more then you would predict

56:12just by the amount of body fat and lean body mass they lose this is what's called metabolic adaptation we need to find metabolic rate dropping but that was good so so you have so we can calculate all this stuff so your overall total daily energy expenditure your tdee is made up of your basal metabolic rate which is what you burn like what we're doing right now just sitting around doing knock singeing consumption co2 production actually actually do to be to be real it's just laying down doing nothing so basically the energy you burn keeping the lights on right that's one component it's about 50 to 60% in most people then you have your meat which is like this like I'm moving my hand some ambulatory movement non voluntary movement this stuff will actually go down when you die it like if you've ever been around people go down yes you stop vigilant aeneas movement goes down it's

57:00a huge modifier so like if you look at I did a DVD when I was prepping for a show back in 2010 I blink slower I'm not kidding you and I talk slower yeah you were like on valium yeah and right now I'm all hyped up in the life of oh absolutely like your so your body this is your body genic diet would help you so so when you think about so there's NEET that's that then your exercise activity which is intuitive that's how many calories you burn exercising and then there's what's called the thermic effect of food which we already discussed how much energy required to get energy out of food okay and all those add up to your total daily energy expenditure and we can predict based on equations how what your metabolic rate should be so these people their metabolic rate was 500 calories a day lower then it should have been just based off the weight they lost because if you lose muscle and you

57:56lose fat you have less weight to carry around right so your metabolic rate goes down just from that but it goes down way more than it should that is your the first prong of your body's self defense system to stop you from starving yourself is to become more efficient we hear the word efficiency and we think wow that that's a good thing think about if your body fat levels were a gas tank and you had a car okay you would not want to be efficient right you want to have one of the old Suburbans it was like half a mile per gallon right you don't want the Prius because you can go way longer so going back to that study on rats they became so much more efficient with their food and this is the second prong of your body's self defense system is to not only slow down your metabolic rate while you're dieting but to start activating systems that deal with restore egde once you actually

58:43start overeating again have you ever done a long diet or known somebody who did it and then they start eating again it's like everything sticks to you it's like you just it's like you like how did I gain 5 pounds from one day and people like oh it's water well water doesn't stay around for six months so it's not water that is your body preparing all these systems so even like enzymes that deal with fat storage while you're dieting actually go up because it's preparing your body for restore äj-- and then even probably the most interesting thing is you know it all falls back on the importance of tracking macros well is completely ignored with guys coming off of a fight or fitness competitor right you don't just wanna let yourself blow up really quickly it's it's a myth that your body is set up to be anabolic or to gain muscle that is you're you're set up for fat yeah but the point I'm

59:33trying to make is that the way most people diet which is this kind of I mean you know you've probably been around people who do this yo-yo stuff it's it's a lot of people you know they pick the next fad diet whatever's popular they do it they lose some weight and then they regain it my dad lost thirty pounds on the ketogenic diet regained 50 right now the real problem is in racket macros now he does but the real property's down 30 pounds again but the real problem is if we used to think adipose tissue was like a sponge right so if you ate too much you just threw more in there right soaked up extra nutrients and then if you started if you're in a caloric deficit you were losing weight it just gave up some of its nutrients you know like the guy in faster for 365 days and didn't die because he had so much oh so much fat we now know that body fat fits every

60:25definition of an in the endocrine system it's a tissue it is an actual organ because it sends out hormonal signals it integrates hormonal signals it talks to the brain the hindbrain the arcuate nucleus it is integrated and all of metabolism in a big way and typically you have the way we gain fat or lose fat is based on the fat cell size so you have a set number of fat cells and the other expand or they shrink pretty intuitive unless now you can create more fat cells if you become so obese that the you literally can't stuff any more fat in there right so obese people have a fat cell hyperplasia a lot of times what's really interesting is people at the end of a diet when you're when your thyroid hormone is lower your sympathetic nervous system tone is lower this unique hormonal Malou if you overfeed too rapidly there's a researcher named McLean out of Colorado

61:18actually that showed that you can actually increase your fat cell number if you overfeed too rapidly right after a diet now this was in rats full disclosure but it was nothing fascinating stuff so now you're increasing your bodies but it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective right your body's like we had this famine we don't want to deal with this again we want to make sure that we can store as much stuff as possible so we're gonna create some this dude is rapidly over feeding we're gonna create some new fat cells to make sure we're not going to mess any of this energy we're gonna capture every single bit of it I like what you're saying and it makes a lot of sense you're talking about weight loss and weight gain but you were specifically discussing hormonal changes in the body due to the ketogenic diet that are beneficial and that these hormonal changes and the

62:05changes to the way that the brain functions would be a benefit of following that diet versus just working on calories mm-hmm yeah I mean it's that that book I gave you the complete book of ketones by dr. Mary oh yeah so I don't think it's actually out yet but don't get jacked so ketones are handsome a little there a there are sort of by definition have a metabolic superiority as a as a fuel source you know and they readily cross the blood-brain barrier they can largely replace glucose as a primary energy source in your brain under periods of fasting or ketogenic diet so that that offers a lot of advantages to someone dieting because it makes you resilient like the guy that fasted 382 days his glucose was was like 30 and dipped down the 20 that would be universally fatal for most people but his ketones are elevated so he did not feel hunger so that that is true like the Cahill

63:09studies George Cahill studies at Harvard Medical School where they fasted subjects for 40 days they injected insulin to increase what army did that get passed I remember presenting this at lanes camp a while back and I when I you know read the study I had to call him on the phone he was living he passed away in 2012 but we had a number of conversations before he passed away and I was amazed that he got ethics approval to do that because it's basically like killing someone injecting 20 I use of insulin but what was fascinating that they were asymptomatic for hypoglycemia at a level of hypoglycemia that's typically universally fatal and they were also very cognitively lucid and that was a dramatic demonstration at the time it was thought that you know the brain could only use glucose so this is a paradigm shift in the way we understand sort of fuel utilization particularly in

64:04the brain so that has major and I can go kind of on and talking about the different applications of the ketogenic diet which I did on the first podcast but from a perspective of someone dieting to lose weight dieting as a lifestyle doing it in fasting the ketogenic diet makes intermittent fasting much easier because your brains adapted to it that for me had tremendous practical applications that allowed me I feel to excel through academia I was able to do a lot more work not get hungry and and you know Elena we haven't trained in a while but when we train that's nice we did lifts I mean we were both dead lifting 675 for reps and I was on actually I was on the the the classical ketogenic diet and then that's when I was just doing it and it you know I would encircle verses like 80 to 90 percent fat for about a year and you know deadlifting like three times my body weight for four reps you

65:04know and it didn't hurt me I can't say that would be the case for everyone but I also titrated the calories in that I wasn't really at a calorie deficit I lost a little bit of weight so I guess by definition I was deficit now for people that are thinking about gains I was trying to gain weight they would think that the ketogenic diet that 8090 percent fat would not be enough protein I believe that the ketogenic diet shines when you are in a calorie deficit I my mentor for the cancer work Tom safer it had published a study showing an unrestricted ketogenic diet can actually promote cancer growth in a brain tumor model unrespected meaning too much calories yeah they were feeding my so sugary ketogenic formula that was on the market at the time well it was a sweetened I'm sorry sweet and ketogenic formula with hydrogenated fats and other things yeah it was a sweetened with

65:56maybe with aspartame or something like that so they they mice tend to overeat it and when they overeat it you know it creates a plethora of metabolic abnormalities and but you also get those same mountain rallies when you over eat carbs you didn't see here's me being as a side note how much does it drive you guys crazy when you hear about this fat acceptance thing or fat is healthy you see fat so much of this going around to massively over obese people they're trying to say it's okay it's fine you're well there's football players right I mean by definition they're pretty healthy I mean they lift they train metabolically their blood work kind of looks okay yeah gods but yeah I might surprise you with my answer okay so we talked about this earlier I'll take the heat I'm a libertarian so if somebody says I'm fat and I'm happy and I like my life and I know what the

66:49risks are then I say knock yourself out I know not me for the judge what makes somebody else happy but now the problem is if you complain about being fat then you gotta do something about it otherwise you're not gonna have any patience and it goes back to the discipline issue right but you can be fit but fat yes because you have morbidly obese people like I said if you lose 10% of your body weight there's there's overweight people who run marathons okay sure yeah you can't tell me they're not in shape yeah okay I know for sure just you're just carrying extra weight I mean look at Daniel Cormier he's not obese he's not obese but he has some he's fat he's don't come get me Dan listen I thought stipa Miocic he was more than 40 pounds over his fighting weight as a light heavyweight champion and he was actually heavier than steep a button and it serves the practice before

67:37mine yeah yeah but that is but performance is not the same thing as aesthetics let me tell you what when I meant to shape what I looked like that I looked amazing you probably I felt like Sharon got ready to pass out right like literally for me to stand up was a was I remember being on the couch and there was a stupid some show on you know biolink calm there was a stupid show on TV and the remote was like this goes back to neat there's a remote over there like five feet away i sat and watched the whole show cuz I just didn't feel like getting the remote so ironic because you look so good like when you jacked like that you look like you just raw I can't break through walls now there is a threshold like you know some of the like Ray Williams who is the world's best power lifter I mean he looks obese dudes squats legit a thousand eighty pounds isn't that an

68:30issue there with power lifters so a good percentage of them I carry around a lot of body fat it's not as much as you would think anymore like in the super heavy weights yes because like for example the IPF which is kind of the IOC recognized powerlifting Federation that I compete in their cut for super heavyweights 265 so if you're gonna be a super heavyweight it won't just be 350 you know who's that dude Jamie that's right as bets ray-ray at the look at the bar bending dude that's he's a beast he's a big shot right gentlemen super nice guy Blaine Sumner another one but like when I sit my squat record of 668 at 205 pounds I mean I was in pretty good shape for that but for me to get to like 8% body fat no problem for me to get from 8% and I'm calibrating so mm-hmm but for me to get to from 8 percent to 3 percent it's a nightmare your body can't really get down to 3 on

69:24calipers yes I think that would be if you floated no there are no actual accurate measures of body fat that's the that's why it's not really like that relatively within themselves their axes depend upon hydration well people are factors yes so people not to make too much of a side tangent but people look at DEXA do x-ray absorption technology and they say oh that's the gold standard Dex is actually really finicky like I remembered Xing rats in studies we do it in duplicate so we do it twice and sometimes you'd have like differences just dexing the same rat twice it depends on the Machine your hydration status because water if you want to gain you know what the best way to gain 8 pounds of lean body mass within 5 minutes go do a DEXA then drink a gallon of water go back to a next another deck so you'll be 8 pounds of lean body mass heavier you can impress your friends because it's a two

70:16compartment model more lean body mass it's a two compartment model same thing with CalPERS it's only measuring your amount of fat tissue so anything that's not fat is lean body mass so if you guys are using that to track progress if anybody uses that to track progress it's only accurate with relative to the measurement so your calipers mean nothing for what your decks of measurements gonna be and vice versa I see but the change like if I'm dexing if I'm calibrates consistently at 10% and then it drops to 8 and then 7 and I can be relatively confident that I'm losing body fat same thing for DEXA but you have to do it the same time of day same hydration status all that kind of stuff and I don't really used X sub because people in order to get it accurate you'd have use it like every day for it to be actual relative you use pictures right so when he was dieting and got to

71:05certainly like I looked at him as okay yeah like stop there but then he would go for another and get to a level where I he looked very gaunt I mean you looked yeah what looks good there like seeing him in person like I'm yes personality was changing I mean it was kind of freaky disgusting looking towards the end and many people who maybe follow the sport but don't compete don't really realize what the difference between 5% or 6% and 3% is yeah so that separates the competitors from the and that's your rows on line they're really fighting evolution at that point because your body is trying to gear close to starvation literally your body's trying to keep you from doing that so like you think about food all the time you actually become so a friend of mine Chris Foss who I he's a professor now he was doing his PhD at the same time as me and him my other friend dr. Jeremy Lin

71:58Aki and dr. Lindy Russo Chris's wife Chris was doing a contest prep and I prepped him for the show and it was a six-month study of he's a natural body butter so drug-free and they looked at the hormonal responses his weight his body fat and even like measures of mood Chris is like the whole guy was a beast yeah like 260 years I mean to no droid free body 220 in the offseason about 190 oh okay he did look like buddy he's big guy but he's like a very mellow dude by the end his mood measurements were measuring like that of a psychopath yeah it just changes your mood around fighters who like they get when they get that lean it's just like you can barely talk to you yeah yeah and think about think about like they're actually like trying to peak for a fight at the same time they feel the most it's ridiculous they're so focused on cardio they can't I don't want to make just

72:49into a they're focused on just dehydrate yeah and and making that wait I've seen some of the protocols there's some good ones out there but not some of the stuff I've seen I'm like God I wish I could talk to somebody in that in that realm because it's so it's so much bro science it's so dangerous to and it's it's really you could only do it three or four times and then your body starts to reject it and you guys have to go up and wait like you were talking about explained to you yeah yeah and some they go up weight sometimes yeah they start crushing it yeah do they do much better so it's testosterone right well um I did but his his basal requirements his caliber was like twelve hundred the crazy thing is so there's been some critics of my my kind of view of metabolic adaptation the body self defense system full full disclosure some people criticize you about that they say

73:36well if you look at metabolic adaptation it only explains it's only a 15 percent adaptation relative to the whole adaptation and but if you look at Chris's numbers I think on average that's probably right on an average diet with an average person you take somebody trying to get really lean or someone who yo-yo diets or somebody who crash diets and now you know if again it's proportionate if you challenge your body with something extreme it's gonna respond in an extreme fashion so every study we have on natural bodybuilders and there's about ten of them now who look at their contest preparation and coming out of it and I use them too just because is that the realm I grew up in shows that they're high poking addled by the time that they're at stage so hype okay now I mean their testosterone their testosterone is clinically low yeah naturally and these are guys like me I

74:24actually run though I actually like have a pretty naturally high testosterone level like whenever every time ever since I'm 16 years old when I'm gonna attest that I've been like over 800 if I'm eating enough when I was at contest I was under 300 this is part of how your body fights you your body does not want you to be that lean but if you're kind of reigning this back into the discussion this is why I talk about why it's so important to pick something that's sustainable for you as an individual because if you do this where you yo-yo diet or you don't come out of it appropriately it will you up I mean we've we've all I think females especially and all of a lot of track record like you I I've worked with a lot of females now because especially in physique sports there's a lot of really bad coaching starvation diets then for women it's it just messes with the

75:11reproductive cycle too right yeah which amenorrhea and of itself doesn't seem to have missus you what is that no mental cycle yeah yeah so does it necessarily in of itself seem to be a have negative health consequences in terms of longevity or disease or anything like that but yeah I mean if you can't get pregnant I mean that's a deal for some women but what that what the women don't want to hear is you may have to gain some body fat to get that back you know they don't hear that but this is why like I really start with sustainability and then from there I go to okay what so if we've got what sustainable for you now can we get a little bit better can we do a little bit more fiber like I think in general you know I criticize paleo diets because I think they're validation for their model is absolutely stupid what ization is that oh the kind of evolutionary validation and the fact

76:04that we didn't drink milk and we didn't eat beans and this kind of thing did buy coffee but but the question shouldn't be what we were doing the question should be what makes sense and what is healthy now like if you look at studies on dairy almost all studies show people who take in dairy are healthier better bone density more lean body mass lower body fat but isn't there a lot of people to think that dairy is bad for you yeah informations the vegans but some some some like clean eaters to think that very somehow causes the the research data actually yeah protein in dairy various proteins that alpha luck tell you men can basically initiate a an immune response in the body so I know when I'm ok with dairy fat I can get like you know hundred grams a day dairy fat but if I'm if I drink a whey protein shake especially at night I wake up all congested and you know like I haven't is

77:01that a pure whey concentrate way yeah whey concentrate or just like you know a yogurt or and and I think it's a spectrum right so it's not like you have it or you don't I think you know there's a spectrum and bovine protein is kind of viewed foreign to the body I mean once it enters the bloodstream and it can it's only if it enters the bloodstream because if digestion is working properly you're not gonna get any of that in the bloodstream it's all gonna be chewed up into some of the eye and try pepsin some of it makes I mean like in salons of 50 amino acid and you take enough insulin like you can basically go hypoglycemic if you orally contain it that's why you and inject I think it's a you think it's 81 well it doesn't matter sure yeah yeah so yes so even something that's a you know 50 amino acid thing can get through so this is termed lactose intolerance well

77:58that's actually a sugar yeah so this is an issue with people's individual dietary so some people have alpha lacked albumin sensitive sensitivity where they if they've got some kind of leaky gut so normally your your your injunctions are tight okay so your your small intestine or your testings are like kind of fingers and they pick up nutrients this I'm really generally epithelial cells the tight Junction is a little little anchor that holds of that if something dysfunctional with that that can allow certain nutrients through the wall and and that will initiate a body's in moon response Holly is celiac and she so if she has gluten you know like you will know it because she will have a huge inflammatory response but in people who have normal digestion that just doesn't happen going back to the the Paleo thing what I was going to say is even though I disagree with their relevance if you

78:53told me okay you take their general recommendations eat limit sugar eat more Whole Foods eat higher protein I think in general that's pretty good recommendations for most people I just as you said I'm anti so I'm not gonna let you make claims about why something works when that's not why it works right so when we look at like the differences in diets like I think what I would say generally to people is here's the great news as far as fat loss goes and health markers if you want to lose weight if you eat if you control your calories so eating the calorie deficit you eat enough protein because protein helps pair lean body mass and is thermogenic so it increases your energy output then you can kind of do whatever you want with carbs and fats and whatever you prefer and you'll still lose the same amount of weight and get about all the health benefits but it has

79:49to be something that you can sustain because if you can't sustain it you're gonna put all that weight back on that's what the research data shows so jobs sustaining it meaning a balanced diet that you could stick with it for life some sort of calorie deficit that's really only a temporary thing to lose weight right so now obviously you don't you can't eat a deficit forever right because then you would starve yourself to death right but the body corrects that like you as you drop body weight your metabolic rate slows down you're not an account deficit forever when we talk about losing weight and then maintaining it right so eating in a maintenance so eating basically the behaviors you use and the style of dieting you use you have to continue that if you want to maintain it so if you like key to Jenny like ketogenic you like you to genetic moat and I think

80:37you're a big fan of meat if you can sustain that you know like people out there say oh my god people project you're gonna get cancer and you're gonna do this and you're gonna do that most of those health benefits are just from not having excess body fat excess body fat and the metabolic dysregulation zuv a metabolic type syndrome that's what caused 90% of these problems okay now which is why I get crazy when people say that fat is healthy well well here's the problem it's like we we have like reactionary culture so we have been through your set point is - right we have we have reactionary culture so you see this all the time so we had okay you got to eliminate saturated fat you got eliminate dietary fat and just eat grains and limit your proteins and we got fatter and so the reaction that was don't eat any carbs saturated fat isn't bad for you in fact eat as much

81:32saturated fat as you can it's great put butter in your coffee like no there's good data to show that the research data that I've seen in my opinion shows that saturated fat absolutely was demonized it's not as bad as we thought but it's if you eat too much of it it's not great either especially with carbohydrates oh absolutely that's because now you're increasing you now you're increasing your liver production of saturated fats as well right when your body gets to a fat-burning stage and then on top of that you pile on carbohydrates then your he wants to store those carbohydrates this way the calories are plus well yeah yeah actually more technically you store the fats you started found yeah because your carbohydrate you burn the carbohydrate store right so carbohydrate if you say well why does if you don't store cobalt so I talked about this in my book because people will go too far

82:21to each direction to say well you said you don't you only you you hardly store any carbohydrate is actual fat why don't we eat zero fat and mostly carbohydrate well then your body you know your body's not dumb your body we didn't you didn't get here today and get through evolution in tens of thousand years of hard you know living by your body being stupid so your body can ramp up de novo lipogenesis so that you can create fat from carbohydrate if fat gets low in carbohydrate intake gets high enough at central fatty acid there was a research study or a meta-analysis done by Kevin Hall who's an NIH researcher and they showed that if you equate calories you get a small extra benefit from fat restriction versus carb restriction on fat loss so you get about 26 grams extra fat loss per day calories equated protein equated if you restrict fat versus carb now before everybody goes

83:19crazy that's probably due to a little bit of inefficiencies in ramping up de novo lipogenesis because there's it takes energy to move that system but 26 grams of fat loss per day to me is not a physiological like I don't care about that that's nothing compared to okay if you like low-carb better don't worry about losing an extra 26 grams of fat if you like glow car better and you can sustain that then do low-carb one of things that we seem to be getting into here is the difference between losing weight and optimal performance and then optimal performance mentally and hormonal ii versus optimal performance physically in terms of like athletic athletic pursuits so here's here's something else and the type of person whether it's you know you don't want to put a teenager that's you know playing football on a ketogenic diet necessarily why would that be well maybe if they

84:12were overweight that could be beneficial but I think it would decrease his performance unless he goes the Aikido adaptation phase but there's a lot of at when you're a teenager you're I would say your carbohydrate tolerance is very high I want to I want to justice and mine mine was very high I could eat huge plates of pasta that I could not eat now you know I just simply I couldn't so I think as we age I would say our carbohydrate tolerance decreases with age because our metabolic machinery is not as hungry for glucose I mean we're set up and hormonal II our insulin sensitivity is not as high glycolytic pathways are reduced things like that that happens as a consequence of age so it makes sense that as we transition into age for longevity and for health span maybe not lifespan but health span carbohydrate restriction makes sense and even in some cases the ketogenic diet

85:07makes sense you know but if you look at the okay so I have to push backs on that and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you Oh kinda a.m. but if you look at longevity data the actual longevity data people who restrict fat versus card live longer like that's what a new study that came out showed but again there's describing it as also a means of because people put on weight as a age with a low carb and with a ketogenic diet that becomes a practical strategy to create a sustainable calorie deficit for losing weight sustaining that and also if you elevate ketones over time a lot of the new research that's coming out you know over the last five years ketones is not just a superior source of energy metabolically but it also has epigenetic effects on the body it activates gene pathways that can confer resistance against oxidative stress the longevity pathway is an anti inflammatory pathway

86:05in the context of a deficit no not in the context of deficit you could feed ketones take a ketone supplement and it activates just simply elevating beta-hydroxybutyrate functions as a histone deacetylase inhibitor and can activate if you will gene programs that can confer resistance against many different things oxidative stress pathways and also activate or suppress and in fly a pathway that's linked with many age-related chronic diseases and autoimmune pathways it decreases the activation of the nlrp3 inflammasome so when you're talking about people living longer you're talking about that epidemiology study that was like a questionnaire of people what they ate also long period of time highly criticized studies absolutely and there's a lot of co-founders which is why I'm not a big fan of hard to say it's hard to say that the study shows that if you eat carbs versus fat do you

87:03I didn't say one what's cause-and-effect is sort of cited evidence because I don't cherry-pick because if we're gonna give the argument I want to give the whole argument I was playing devil's advocate I don't think that necessarily if you eat a low-carb diet it's gonna cause you to live a shorter life I don't believe that okay but I think it's important to put all the data out there because what I see a lot of is people just cherry picking and I those studies they get they become defenders and everybody will say you know eat carbs you live diets are gonna kill you and then it just gets crazy here's the way some of the animal work I mean Lena and I both did animal work I think some of the animal work is almost more reliable because you have an inbred strain of animal and you have very tight control if you're genetically identical freely living human you know he's doing many

87:52different things and there's genetic variability but with animals that it may not always be predictive it's informative but not always predictive and I think some of the the data I read some of the human studies and become more confused but going back to the animal data I'm almost more comfortable with some of these outcomes for animal studies so one thing I want to bring up that I think is really important is we have I think we're all getting to this point people out there think that there's like this perfect diet that's going to cure everything in all of our ails the fact the uncomfortable truth and the fact of the matter is that if one diet is and I don't know that specifically but my guess is if one diet is better for cancer MIB worse for heart disease or if one diet is better for insulin resistance maybe it's worse for cancer it's better for cognitive performance might be worse

88:45we don't we don't know yeah so that's the it's kind of where's your space that and this is why I go back to those big picture things of most of the health benefits just come from having more muscle lift weights people that lift weights you if you're if you're debating about diets and you're not lifting weights you are missing the point okay because that is sorry I curse so that yeah I do it on Twitter you've seen me so it's very good at emphasizing your point yes so I'm awesome awesome so somebody criticized me for one day I was like you know what's great about my job I can say as much as I want and nobody's gonna fire me so that's great but the big picture things lift weights create more lean body mass be active that's a huge thing even if you're overweight if you're active you're you're gonna live fine well on the whole you're gonna live longer then then

89:41person who's inactive and then control your weight so if you can even if you can get to a normal weight and maintain it or sorry normal body fat and maintain it or if you're a high body fat if you can get to a lower body fat and maintain it night that's 90 that's 95 percent of the battle all this other stuff is 5% that we're worrying about that we're going back and forth about and that's why I don't want to miss the context because when people like I'll pick on him cuz he who I asked for is Gary tabs but I'm happier we got Dom for this I'm gonna hang on okay when people like Gary Taubes say things like carbs are causing obesity just carbs you create this problem where if people don't like eating a high-fat diet or a low carb diet and they can't sustain it they just feel like they're a big failure and they just quit because what's the point if carbs are causing fat and I can't stop

90:37eating carbs what am I gonna have a real hard problem well I I know what you're saying discipline it's important I just said nonsense but I think my point is that if you give people flexibility it usually improves adherence right and you're talking about from what I've had a point of view coaching people right and what I would like to see is I would like to see a diet that's protein and calorie conscious study protein calorie-controlled if anybody knows of one that has done this let me know protein and calorie Control and then let people self-select higher carb or higher fat what do you prefer let them self select and see how well they do and I bet you would see improvements in adherence in both groups Tom you were gonna well I think a diet strategy that controls your appetite and does not have your appetite controlling you which i think is accomplished with

91:29the ketogenic diet that's also you know one that's a well formulated one that's controls you know that's fiber and adequate protein is a strategy that allows you to be far less fixated on food because you're not as hungry and you could decrease your meal frequency so if there's I know there's people out there that are probably busy people CEOs of companies as students or whatever that simply do not have time to prepare and eat meals to when they get hungry so by reducing meal frequency you can increase your productivity and I think you're kind of coaching your body to be a better fat-burning I think there's definitely benefits so when you are on a ketogenic diet you are storing more fat but you are burning more fat yes so think about your adipose tissue as little bags which have fat coming into them and fat leaving them and the fat oxidation pathways are elevated and when

92:27I eat a ton of fat at night before I go to bed I am like some people carb load I'm like fat loading at night and I'm pulling off those fat stores during the day through my I think about it like that so instead of just you know carving up at night time I tend to I would wake up hungry I would probably dump insulin and then wake up with a hypoglycemic cravings in the middle the night if I did that night time restricted eating yeah like today I come fasting and and most day that I want to be as productive as possible I will not have my first meal which would be typically a ketogenic meal around 4:00 p.m. and so what time to eat at night I will start I'll do a small meal like at work and then I my big meal at about 7 o'clock maybe 7 o'clock and then snack out the night and maybe eat within you know I start eating at 4 p.m. and I finish eating in about 10 p.m. so you

93:19basically start eating at the end of your day yeah so and that's very liberating for me so and I didn't even know this was possible but that's like back 10 years ago I didn't know it was possible to have that amount of control over my appetite and actually feel as lucid and as energetic and be able to you know get with Lane and do deadlifts with him and actually maintain my performance and my strength in the gym I don't feel like I'm an outlier either that's still possible so I think that anecdotes are good because anecdotes cause us to look at things but I can tell you like so for example I usually four times a day and I protein right now I'm in a gaining phase so I'm trying to purposely gain weight hopefully some lean body mass I'm coming back from an injury so trying to regain some my lean body mass I'm eating about 400 to 450 grams of carbohydrate a day there are

94:14times when I'll go seven eight hours I won't eat and I don't really get hungry so I mean there are 16 hours I don't I don't know I don't know but I I don't think I would I go some some nights I'll sleep and I'll wake up and I'll go 12 13 hours like I'll go in sometimes and and I don't usually get hungry now but again that's just think tennis just well if you look at some of the things that I'll disagree with her are the idea that insulin has these big fluctuations and you become hypoglycemic and that causes over feeding and some people that's the case but most people if they're eating a especially with a higher protein diet that doesn't usually happen I want to add that the population most people are not bodybuilders and the population of people that Lane mostly communicates with are on the border of being metabolically elite and also have a very high carb tolerance and you're a

95:09bodybuilder with a large amount of lean body mass you are pretty much metabolically set up to be a very have a high carb tolerance so this general population is not like that so let's talk about carb tolerance because I that's one thing that will disagree on I don't think the people are more carb tolerant I think that people have slower and faster metabolic rates so if you have faster metabolic rate you'll be more tolerant by default because you can just tell right more calories I agree but in a bodybuilder that's two hundred and sure on average yep now if you look at somebody who's on a ketogenic diet they're actually by definition of carb tolerance their carbohydrate intolerant because if you challenge them with a bolus of glucose they click they can't clear it so but that doesn't that's that's just cuz what they're adapted to right but their fat adapted yeah agreed agreed

96:01so I actually the first experimental biology we ever went to this is why you know even scientists get this so wrong sometimes because they they get so in their echo chamber they don't bother to look outside of it going to the gym when we first met and when Lane stopped and had a huge meal which to me I was like you feel like crap doing we're gonna stop and eat if I go squat it's a really heavy meal the bathroom about five times you know I didn't I forget I think I did eat but it was very abnormal from sick go eat oatmeal heavy meal on the way that Jim Holly's like you she hates training fed she wants to be fasted she feels better that way but that's the individual difference yes right that's individual differences part of it part of it maybe you're just adapted to that as well on what you're used to so maybe a psychological thing but some people may just do better that

96:49where blood is diverted to your digestive system and processes and that's less blood for the muscle so you're you're expending energy to digest break down safely is that theories been pretty debunked really yeah but something happened I mean it's it's a fundamental you got a logical concept that you are diverting blood resolves to yeah java scientists is to question even those theories we hold most to be true Neil deGrasse Tyson yeah but it's so I think a small meal actually can be beneficial and so but it's not like you're using no I example hydrates during the meal you're not using the perfect how has it been debunked that they see that performance isn't worse and that you don't like is the new performance specifically there's nothing knocks there's not a limitation of blood flow because you eat something to the muscle there's not a limitation of blood

97:45flow to the muscle okay but again some people just do better if they're faster or have small meals again it may be a psychological thing but I like to feel like I've had a lot of food and I'm fully fueled for a long training session but some people what kind of training know like if you're doing so and like wats in a very controlled device but if you were doing something like might be different yeah if you were doing jujitsu but I don't know you would probably throw up maybe I don't know I did it very briefly awesome sport like I did it very briefly informally also really can't have a big meal and then go train up I probably have gone to the bathroom every few days I can't work on a grant I can't we're not supposed to talk about guns but what if I go to the range and that's my talk we talked a lot before it my groups are tighter I I got better control if I go in in a Fed state I'm

98:38just not as focus that my vision my vision is not as acute then right after a big meal as if I'm fast at 16 hours but this is this is the hard thing with anecdote because we can't tease out whether or not that's that is an actual physiological thing or whether you just feel better and you think you'll do better so you do better because the brain is unbelievably powerful there was a study and I'm a butcher it because I can't remember exactly but they took people who had legit allergy problems and they gave them a sugar pill and they said this will improve your allergies it should not have done anything over half the people reported their symptoms got better and 30% actually physiologically got better because their brain was telling them get better mmm like it's pretty crazy so that's part of probably the best diet for you might be the diet you can stick

99:27to and just feel real positive about right because you you feel like this might be someone what's going on with a lot of this low-carb stuff that people say they feel so fantastic because there's some sort of a placebo effect that's possible I think part of it is too is that animal studies are giving me more confidence when I can look at rats or mice on a ketogenic diet and see and objective ol you know objective increase or decrease and a parameter then I gain confidence but here's the thing I'm not saying that's a bad thing if you feel good about it that's great but just don't try to get on Twitter and tell everybody all you're gonna gain fat the deficit because you're eating carbs right up if you go to witch doctor and you really believe it might actually help you yes you know one of the one of the number-one characteristics of cancer survivors is

100:13that they're actually they have a belief in God they believe that they're gonna make it through that now some people cause or effect some people may argue religious people might argue well they believe in God and so God is helping them the other argument to that is they believe that they are gonna make it through there and so they have a more a better likelihood of doing it so your brain is available believe in the ketogenic diet and believe in God and I think that's a great thing and that's why like they they have remarkable I believe that you know well I I'm a person of faith but I also believe that if you have faith in the methodology to the the patients that have communicated with me that actually believed that this approach is going to work and then they reach that actual therapeutic state of ketogenic diet have results that kind of defy what you would expect

101:05scientifically so I believe it's working physiologically and also psychologically there's am you know psycho therapy right or immunology so our brain can actually control many different physiological processes including our immune system yeah and that that is something that's under appreciate and understood and that really needs to be studied now when in terms of eating a large meal before training surely your body has to use up some of the resources to digest you don't think that it's blood flow to the muscle you think well in debunked they show that the blood flow to the muscle is not limiting if you've had a meal before you train okay now the thing but some people don't like that it's a very individual thing it probably it may be a psychological thing with me I'm not I'm not I understand that I'm an idiot like everybody else out there right so I'm subject to bias and

102:04psychological influence like anybody else but I just used that to my advantage if I feel good about it why would I not do it now if you train in the morning do you do that like it's heading to the gym forcing them on Holly tries to stop me because then I usually end up go to the bathroom for like five times but I'll eat a little bit less in the morning if I'm if I'm gonna go straight in and train but one of the things that that going back that so many scientists missed is that context like most people miss context but scientists even miss context so the first Experimental Biology study first experimental biology symposium we ever went to there was a poster where they fed people a ketogenic diet or they fed them a high carb diet and then at the end of six weeks they challenged them with a hundred grams of glucose and looked how long it took for them to

102:52clear that glucose the ketogenic diet people would have been worse than like type 2 diabetics at clearing glucose okay whereas people eating a high carb diet cleared it just fine right now if you if you just looked at these numbers as dr. you do oh my god you're a diabetic no that's what they were adapted to and I challenged the person with a poster I said and for all you ketogenic diet people who hate me on Twitter I defend the ketogenic diet when it is time to be defended I said to the girl if you had fed a high-fat meal to these people you would have seen the same thing in Reverse if you would have had a high-fat meal as people who were on the ketogenic diet and then a high carb diet you would have seen really elevated triglycerides LDL cholesterol be LDL cholesterol Kalla microns and people who were carbon acted because it wasn't being cleared because that's not

103:45what you're adapted to but people missed that whole context lien has a good analogy in his book that book where if you have a factory a military factory that's making planes and then it has to switch over to making ships right so you it takes a lot of time to change sort of all the processes that take place and the same thing is sort of happening I mean you're giving your body a different fuel source so it has to ramp up the enzymatic machinery the pathways the regulatory pathways and and the transporters even to basically use those fuels yeah and a misunderstanding of that or at least an ignorance is one of the more frustrating things online when I hear like nonsense people the these internet air quote experts talking about the negative aspects of the ketogenic diet that they tried it and they felt weak like what do you mean you tried it you got it for a day

104:36did you try it for three days you died for a month like get the out of here you know adaptation yeah it's important like when it when you review a study and I think you have a study in your book actually that shows in the gym you basically say the ketogenic diet can hurt your performance in the gym so and you reference a racewalking study where I think they did the ketogenic diet for like three weeks or something like that so I think we came back around and said that it's probably fine once you're adapted to it yeah what's the time period we're talking about for me I did not feel myself after it took me about three to four months but then you got to realize that there's a learning curve to doing the ketogenic diet right so if I go back to my notes I mean my performance in the gym and just general well-being took about three to four months do you use an app to trance or anything

105:27I did my fitness Pound stuff but I ain't just no I'm a creature of habit so I basically just buy the same food all the time and I can I measure things on scales and stuff just as a scientist so I can look at some powder on a scale and do 250 milligrams or minus you know 10 milligrams so I've measured things out to where I can look at a plate and basically give you the macros pretty tight well and that's I don't know if you do that yet have you ever done keto for long periods of time I've done it before yeah and he hasn't been keto adapted I would keep tons in my in my butt but I just how'd you do it for about eight weeks so you could argue that I didn't do it long enough but my thing is like all my blood markers are healthy I didn't see so I did keto at maintenance and I didn't see really much improvement in anything everything kind of stayed the same now what what feel

106:19different energy when what year was this would have been probably after my bodybuilding show before I got back into powerlifting so it would have been sometime in like 2012 issue do you like post about it because I didn't I didn't want to really like get the wrath of anybody on me at the time now I'm old and cantankerous I just don't care that much anymore but I didn't my performance didn't go down that in the first few weeks it did but then it was fine I just like the flexibility of having some carbs yeah I liked having that flexibility because if you eat popcorn yes if you know popcorns great though because he has higher protein and higher fiber yeah but you know if if I was going to commit to it as a lifestyle then that would be fine but unless you're willing to again if that's not something you're willing to stick to for life you have to rethink if

107:16you want to do it or not but there's some benefiting going on and off ketogenic diets correct I so if you do a ketogenic diet and you want to stay in a state of ketosis the days that I do intermittent fasting now which I didn't do like five years ago I don't necessarily do the kita I do a high higher protein low carb but my macros are not ketogenic typically not all the time sometimes they are but they're different like you could do intermittent fasting with a car based diet and still get ketones you know by the end of your you're fast you could do a low carb you could do ketogenic I actually think it's it's a little bit better to be metabolically flexible so I'll throw in I tend to eat a lot of vegetables and then throw in some fruits too a few days a week where it may kick me out of ketosis but during the middle of the day when I need to be at my best I pretty

108:08much always I'm running a low to moderate ketones during the day and I can do that with different strategies now you know with my body because how much does that kick you out of ketosis though at nighttime yeah half of dark chocolate one or two things of dark chocolate and which is maybe 15 20 grams of carbs and maybe a 1/2 cup of blueberries and then a big salad and some vegetables typically green soles when you say kick shot of ketosis so if you measure your blood your ketones drop below what level point 5 and I typically don't even measure at night but I wake up in the morning and I might be about 0.5 and then that goes up throughout the day so middle part of the day I'm typically running one between one to two sometimes three the the urine strips are only effective in the early stages of ketosis yeah because in the beginning you spill out a lot of ketones

109:05in your urine but as you increase ketone transport and utilization over time less of them end up in your urine how much time is that depends on the person but after about two or three weeks you may see less of a color change on the urine strips even if you didn't change your diet is there another effective method other than the pricking the finger yeah well I think the blood you know Abbott Labs makes the precision extra there's the keto mojo which I also use we use in the lab what's that keto mojo is a blood measurement and glucose measurement device that's essentially a cos Abbot corner of the market they they basically allow you to check your ketones for a dollar a strip instead of you know three or four dollars or five dollars but it's still pricking your finger it's it's pricking your finger I don't use the device actually use a syringe and just

109:56take a running start and jab my finger now because it doesn't got calluses like you do when your fingers so annoying yeah I'm kind of used to it but the the urine strip is actually pretty good relative marker and the seamen's multi stick SG will measure ketones and then nine other things like that measure kidney function and and you know your blood glucose and things like that so I recommend it's 25 cents a strip and then there's the breath key tonics meter you blow into it and it measures breath acetone and the level is also another breath acetone measurements ask about that so yeah and you know breath acetone highly correlates the fat oxidation so if your breath acetone is high you are burning a lot of fat so isn't there an issue with people that are keep in the state of ketosis if they get pulled over for drunk driving a couple of lawyers contacting there are some cases going on

110:51right now and they wanted me to weigh in breathalyzers yeah breathalyzers because of the would you say acetone yeah it uses the same technology breath acetone and if you I know that if you drink alcohol and do a breath ketone meter you can kind of pin it depending on what meter you're using if you're using a breath that's a four breath ketone meter if you use if you have a breath alcohol measurement and you're in a state of ketosis I have not seen that depending on the device that you'll have a false positive if that's your question some devices can it depends on that device so one thing I'll I'll bring up because you said well you work with these kind of metabolically elite people so what are the problems I say what you're doing where you kind of take yourself up to the point where you're sort of getting out of ketosis and then going back in that's probably

111:45fine but most people aren't gonna do it that way they're gonna be like oh I had a cheese cake or oh I couldn't take any more and I had some pizza or whatever that's really bad so you see probably people who intermittent fast decrease that window time and over consume yeah on yes so that that's a big problem so I see I wanted to bring up intermittent fasting too because I think again like if you so the studies are merriment fasting show that you lose the same amount of calories are the same you do the same amount of weight same by the fat and maybe might be at risk for a little bit more lean body mass loss just because you're triggering protein so this is left less often but you do have a little bit lower insulin levels it seems like now whether or not that's again beneficial based on the the research that we talked about likely insulin sensitivity insulin sensitivity

112:36was a little bit better again so there are some techniques you could do but people bring up things like a tofu ji and inflammation and I again I kind of get this so if you if you just calorically restrict you increase tautology and you increase you decrease inflammation yeah and you don't get an auto foggy is dependent upon the decrease in certain amino acids glucose and insulin and you achieve those biomarkers states a more significant level do intermittent fasting than you would and they are the autophagy regulator can you see me the the the recent locust it ant or amp kinase you know leucine so if you are eating various meals throughout the day three times a day like you know your blood leucine levels will be you've always got to keep it in context of 24 hours so people people do this with with fat storage and oxidation as well they say well if you're if you're fasting all

113:36this time you're burning so much body fat well yeah but then by definition if you're eating less at these times you have to eat more at this time if you're keeping calories the same and so during that time post meal you're gonna store a lot more fat you're gonna have much higher insulin now maybe not maybe lower overall you have a fast metabolism that's good you're overshooting and those calories have to go somewhere so so point B over 24 hours you don't see differences in fat loss or fat game intermittent fasting versus non I would be interested in the inflammation stuff in the autophagy stuff because again killer work restriction in of itself increase or decreases inflammation increases a tough to interesting enough one of the sugar studies they did with with higher sugar with still calorically restricted they showed decreases in inflammation so it's inflammation is

114:22largely an issue of caloric restriction excess as you guys think that that's what's going on with this carnivore diet yeah the people it's hard no I think it's a calorie restriction effect it's hard effect like look at if I give you a plate of french fries like 200 grams of french fries you can get a lot of calories from that if I gave you 200 grams of meat even a real fatty meat it's not nearly the same like you you're gonna be much more satiated from the protein like you can only eat so much meat you know and again like if you I don't want to go too far down the carnivore diet whole but the the stuff I see with people yeah do I think you can eat meat and improve your blood markers absolutely absolutely of course you could eat pop-tarts in it yeah but but the point is is like when we get into this kind of zealot of only eat meat you don't need vegetables you know there's

115:21there's I mean again it's a teeny ology but there's some really tight meta analyses that have been done looking at colorectal cancer and low fiber intake and I would not be comfortable recommending people not eat you know enough vegetables and fiber but I feel uncomfortable eating a steak you know or a burger without like something like broccoli or salad I think you negate many of the potentially carcinogenic compounds that are in red meat and that's a whole other debate but I think actually yeah heme iron and and poly aromatic hydrocarbons Chris Kresser actually brought that up yesterday yeah talking about meat consumption with vegetables yeah like with brought cruciferous vegetables and salads like I don't personally would not eat red meat so full disclosure I mean I was because I get accused on Twitter of being a carb guy and I'm not I was my research was

116:15funded by the egg board the beef our beef national beef something or another sorry guys and then the National Dairy Council so you know full display all you guys out there who again you're just taking my word for it but who think that like industry is this evil thing that comes in and controls everything I met one person my entire PhD from the funding sources and I met them for literally 30 seconds they were I it was an experiment on G and they said hi thanks for thank you for the grant oh great great great job thank you that was it now I'm not saying that there isn't nefarious things that can happen but like when I heard when I liked the show with Nina everything was about who funded it and this and that and but that's why they have to disclose those things on papers and also this is why scientists science is self-regulating because somebody is going to repeat your

117:10study and if they don't find the same thing you found you're going to be in trouble so I get criticized for a conflict of interest so I've seen that on social media and things so I knew I should probably say I am NOT a medical doctor or even a register dietician of a PhD scientist so don't take my word is medical or nutrition advice we do our research is funded not only by the Department of Defense and office of Navy research also by companies actually develop ketone food products and also exotics ketone supplements and our university owns the rights to those patents I don't have any products myself our company have a company ketone technologies and ketone nutrition is the information website but at this time we have no products but the University licenses our intellectual property and products are made out of that and I get patent royalties and I put the patent royalties

118:03back into our research so buying various exhaust ketones products that are on the market can come back and help support the science and the application I'm just gonna vouch for him I I don't I you know I tend not to state that but I get called out for not stating that so I think it's important I'm gonna vouch for him because he's actually writing a chapter in my new book so we're gonna have a chapter about the ketogenic diet if you're gonna do it this is how to do it right so the new book fat loss forever shameless plug and he said I just want all the money that I make from the book to go back into the lab so nice like that's and Walter Longo has a similar with Pro lon when his line to I know his profits he you know the profits that he takes he puts back knows nobody is unbiased anybody that says there are is full of crap we all have our biases we all have

118:56things that we think worked better another sure but I think the fundamental if you if you meet a scientist and hopefully I equip myself well in this and I think Dom does as well is that one you have a open mind but not so open that your brain falls out and to you care more about getting the right answer than being right when I went to do my PhD I was eating eight meals a day I was eating 300 grams of protein a day I was looking for more reasons to eat more protein and eat it more frequently when I left my PhD I eat four meals a day and I a little bit less protein and less frequently and your because that was fraktur e2 yeah freshly phenomenally I was eating 500 grams of protein a day I was eating like two or three two pound London Broyles and washing it down with the product metrics with hmb and Ellie between meals like back in their mid to early 90s and that was the coolest i justed it

119:49well actually that was the cool thing about my research was it changed the way I actually changed the way worse moment but I was I that was my bias coming in but I said I looked at the research day and I'm like either I believe this or I don't and if I believe this I can't justify XYZ right can I can I go back to the epidemiology studies when in regards to colon and rectal cancer there really haven't been any Studies on people that just eat meat though right you're talking about people who eat meat on a regular basis and that usually is the standard American diet a lot of other in there sugar bun and there's tons of cofactor stands fast absolutely right the I would be fascinated to see some sort of long-term Studies on someone who's our very strict carnivore diet I'm really fascinated by this because I'm seeing all these people have all these benefits but I am I've got

120:38skeptical hippo face every step of the way and like I'm not now again if it's allowing them to create a caloric restriction yes right and somebody says you know what I've tried every other diet out there I've tried eat high-fiber and I've tried eat enough vegetables I can't but I can stick to this right and I can create and I can lose some fat then I want to say okay well maybe that's the best diet for you well I just know so many people that are benefiting from it like you know and not just the part of that on the podcast before I know a lot of other people and if there were followed by a doctor and collecting blood work along the way I mean those doctors can write case reports so I'd be glad to assist in a case report of people are tracking all their blood markers and doing there but most of the people aren't though that's what's going on most of these

121:21knuckleheads are just eating meat and saying they feel great and they're well there's a war on vegetables Oh very strange remember that people don't discount psychology people are feeling very positively about it because it's the flavor of the month yeah like no hate towards carnivore I don't know who the I think dr. Baker Strom because one big guy but you know like if I even dogs eat grass I mean my dogs were out and heat around the great you know to get some yeah so cats interesting they are one thing that yeah they don't there is a carb tolerance with them they don't tolerate them well coby's yeah but vegan cat yeah so the I think the thing is that I'm not I don't believe in any one diet I'm not trying to sell anyone I would like to sell you on a ketogenic diet I really want to see you doing for like four or five months is to see if you're experiencing the

122:19same benefits as him actually pretty obviously you really haven't done it like whole hog I agree with that totally and I think I could probably put together a meal plan I did the keto cookies and I like my cookies I did I see I did a genetic diet and it was fine I felt fine my two months didn't stuff suffer that much what was your blood markers they didn't really change a whole lot like I had I think some I would consider in significant changes I'd maintained I about your Miller molars my mole you do urine ketones or blood ketones or did you look at my book I didn't I didn't measure those I do really okay I did some heuristics and what stage were you in from moderate to high I would have been the modified ketogenic diet so I would have been not super but I would have been barely ptosis I would have it above what do you think so he's eight weeks into it and that's about the

123:21point I was kind of feeling crummy and stuff but so actually about three well not crummy but I'd mana typically it was kicking in yeah but I was flat in the gym yeah and then I started to fill out and then it's a learning curve to write let's see my thing was if I can get the set if I can get the same benefits just by restricting my calories and keeping higher protein and I love offense in terms of cognitive function in terms of okay well that's science I would say I mean we study you could look at PubMed everything from polycystic ovary syndrome to acne you know type 2 diabetes type 1 diabetes now that's a little bit controversial genetic metal but my grains you know a whole host of neurological disorders simply because beta-hydroxybutyrate is I believe sort of from there's an objective truth that it's a superior metabolic fuel and if how do you define millimolar levels in your

124:16blood that's a significant amount of energy in your blood that your tissues can use how you define a severe metabolic fuel the objective the delta g of ATP hydrolysis in the heart is enhanced so essentially you're making more ATP for a given amount of oxygen in procedure metabolic rate could be slower maybe you are beacons yeah so you're more metabolically efficient potentially but I don't think in the context of fat loss but it's also enhancing insulin sensitivity and simply feeding ketones independent of carbohydrate restriction increases fat oxidation in the muscle those had been published there's bits there's been studies to look at like a ketogenic diet versus a non-kinetic higher carb diet and they show that basically by going ketogenic you reduce overall insulin area under the curve by 20% that was the number they got yeah if I was type 1 diabetic I

125:11would 100% do the ketogenic diet hundred-percent absolutely ok this is not very controversial this is not medical this is not medical advice and I actually when I used to give talks I would say for these things but if you're type 1 diabetic you want avoid the ketogenic diet as much as possible because there's diabetic something called diabetic ketoacidosis but like my student Andrew coot Nick at USF that's if you've also got a lot of it yes he has a blog on keto Nutrition dot o-- r-- g-- go to it and it's a very detailed description about carbohydrate restriction and managing your blood glucose and it goes into really into the weeds if you want to resize so can i stop do you elaborate on that so you used to say that if you were type 1 diabetic you wouldn't I did because it was very controversial territory described but diabetic ketoacidosis is yes so if you're type 1 diabetic you

126:04make little or no insulin at all right and I guess maybe just going back to a normal person when they fast or they do the ketogenic diet it increases fat oxidation in the liver and that fat oxidation actually accumulates acetyl co a and that creates ketones acetoacetate and beta-hydroxybutyrate and it occurs in the context of insulin suppression but you're still abnormal insulin but it's very low right and then when your ketones get elevated you spill some out in the urine and that's how you eliminate them your muscles your brain burns them and if they get really high you have an increase in a small increase in insulin release when your ketones get real high and that insulin ramps down fat oxidation in the liver and decreases ketone production so and there's other things too but I don't want to get too much into the weeds but you're a very a normal person is finely tuned to create

126:55to maintain physiological ketones within a certain range with nutritional ketosis with diabetic type one diabetes that's completely thrown out the window so without insulin being there the absence of insulin essentially creates runaway ketogenesis and your ketones become very very high in the context of very high glucose exactly so you have high glucose and high ketones it creates a metabolic disruption it creates an acidotic state and electrolyte imbalances and coma and death which are not going to happen in people who are healthy who are just doing a ketogenic diet right but but what is the type one diabetes if you for example my student using his an example because I think maybe he was using 20 or 30 I use of insulin a day right and then starts carbohydrate restriction and even a modified ketogenic diet and can reduce that insulin requirement to four five

127:55six IU's a day so literally knocking it down you know to 20% change your perception when you did not recommend it well there's a Harvard study that basically looked at a group called type 1 grit on Facebook there's a group called type 1 grit and it's got thousands of people who use a low carbohydrate approach not necessarily a ketogenic diet approach some are but it's very carbohydrate restricted in terms of what a doctor and endocrinologist would prescribe for a type 1 diabetic it would almost maybe look like suicide to some people and low carbohydrate dramatically decreases your insulin requirements and if you look at your continuous blood glucose you know recordings over the course of a week those numbers are much much tighter and that's going to pay huge dividends in the long run when it comes to longevity and health span and you know the potential for going blind or

128:53decreasing your kidney function you know by these huge postprandial spikes essentially if you're type one day you're always chasing your glucose with insulin injections right or an insulin pump if your carbohydrate restricted you're basically not it's very liberating because you're not your dependence on insulin is far far less you know some controversially some people have gotten completely off of insulin I would not recommend that some people are actually doing that so the the I think highly not recommend this from critics of the ketogenic diet and this is a BS criticism the again here's me defending the ketogenic diet is well you you'll be you become people who are healthy you have diabetic you have ketoacidosis that is not going to happen because by definition if you're ketones are high in your health and you're relatively healthy not type 1 diabetic

129:42your blood glucose is low it's when both are elevated that it's dangerous okay and if you're a type 1 diabetic like Andrew who are just using a little bit of insulin to get that baseline so get your glucose levels down to a baseline level and then you're using a carb restricted diet that creates ketones while your blood glucose is at a normal basal level that again not a doctor that medical advice that should not be dangerous right now over the years because he's a power lifter and he's a super big dude he's like 250 pounds like when he goes to the gym he has learned that he can pulse a little bit of insulin and maybe even ramp up his protein or maybe even take a little bit of carbohydrates but you know the next day he's still doing low-carb throughout the day but he's learned to leverage you know as a type 1 diabetic you you have that advantage right because you can

130:32manipulate insulin for body composition alterations or things like that so he he has learned to adjust his protein to maximize his sort of gains and performance in the gym and but nonetheless he goes from he went from a strategy he transitioned to a strategy that would be would look to be almost suicide from the perspective of an endocrinologist dr. managing type went to do that level of carbohydrate restriction would be and now we actually have hard science to show that that can not only can be done that gets that dramatically decreases the variability of your blood glucose fluctuation throughout the day from a weekly perspective and your requirements for insulin whenever you could use less insulin to manage your blood glucose that's a good thing I would it's very hard for a doctor to argue against in type one time using less insulin and keeping tighter numbers there's no way

131:29to argue against that so if you can fall diet so that this gets back to adherence again right again so it's one of those things that you said I'd like to see you try it yeah and do it and you know what I would probably be fine but I enjoy having a variety of foods and I enjoy having a variety of fuels as well no I'm sure you do but I'd still like to see you try it no you're right but I like house I have a chapter in his book that's coming out that we worked you know together and it just took some of the concepts that I've don't you find here your preferences change as well I can just view hunger pangs you're not you don't crave sugary carbohydrate yeah but you do that's you like them oh my god give me the sugar where's the pizza no I don't what did you have for breakfast tomorrow what do I have for breakfast well I had steak and eggs well there you go

132:31and oh right stab them in the face what is wrong with you I don't you know spicehead ojou big serving of nothing lots of energy like again it's it's it's it's individual and I want to to point out that if somebody likes a kid I've had people do ketogenic diet I've had people you know get ready for shows in the key to take time that like why did you put them on a caged egg because that's what they liked they were there they had that preference for that and it got to a point where for some people their calories get so low if they have slow metabolic rates that the level of fat action it would take them to is probably not great for hormone levels so I tended to pull a little bit more carb relative to fat and so we didn't start out target them as ketogenic but by the end they were so you know so you had to resort to something that actually works oh stop it

133:26stop it basal metal because metabolic rate declines you get to a point you get to a point especially to get that lean I mean I was somebody who's like again more average muscle mass and pretty fast metabolism usually I had to get down to like under 2,000 calories a day to get to get ready for a show so for me I was I had my carbohydrates for briefly under a hundred grams of carbs per day in that show proper but I was so member I was sticking your fingers and measuring your glucose yeah in the bathroom I forget where yeah my theory is that when you do that and you carb restrict and you will you calorie restrict rather and get down to eat once that shit's over you just want to reward yourself as often as possible so when someone comes along with something like a ketogenic diet and go no bread no pop you you just you just don't want to do it you get but you

134:17get the same the adherence and they relapse is the same whether it's ketogenic or another diet realize oh like regaining weight yeah but is it correct it's again that the fixation like pasta and bread but is it there's no no foods actually create yeah they sent they have great off their waffles are actually they have like hamburger buns yeah it's good I really like I've made sandwiches with their stuff well it knocks me out more than anything of ketosis is just too much meat yeah yeah that's the one that gets me again I I kind of go back to that the data is very mixed again if we look at the overall data set very mixed and all diets have terrible adherence right but a lot of that and that's discipline yeah but we also now we've got me crazy I don't want to talk about people aren't discipline really I really have a giant heart problem but how does it know so many

135:20discipline people and I just I feel their momentum and vibration and I'm like I just want to concentrate on what they're doing because all these people that can't do it I feel like that's contagious you start thinking about people that can adhere to diets at fault I get it for you because this is something that you do but nationally but I'm gonna I'm gonna make it so for you the ketogenic diet clicks and or eating more meat clicks that that's something that you really enjoy you like the state you like I did I love pasta it makes discipline easier because but India doesn't support that it makes discipline easier in terms of your adherence or in terms of your long-term adherence both both so but but hang on hang on for some people for some people this works better because they feel better they have better adherence for other people if you say now you've got

136:15some people if you say hey you can have a cookie they would it would screw them because they would they would just go crazy but for other people if you allow them more flexibility their adherence improves what I'm saying is we need to give people all the options on the table not demonize any one diet and say hey maybe you try to figure out what worked for lack of sounding bro what works for you and what you can sustain go from there let's see this I'm totally in agreement I am as well but you keep saying Ken sustained you definitely can sustain more than you do that the real problem is a giant percentage of the people are weak oh I would agree with that like it's in the 30 40 percent people just quit give up don't do what they're supposed to do don't do as many reps as they're supposed to do don't work out and take days off just because they're lazy and those are the people that get

137:06off the diet it's a discipline issues with anythin market is really big so I think various foods that are emerging on the market right now at based systems Verta health actually has a great app based system that actually coaches you through that and I think that's very helpful so I think new technologies foods and and will make it will increase adherence also when you have a person who knows and understands all the health benefit associated with nutritional ketosis or just a low-carb I think that can be a motivating factor to make them stick to the diet yeah but for a guy like you who's rational and discipline but people they're self-destructive and weak anymore need a burger and need fries I need to share choice what's the point of the whole conversation then well the part of the conversation to avoid those because they're gonna drag you down to their mediocre level I think

137:57people I think you need to sympathize with them a little bit because I think the market and I think this is a fruitful area for entrepreneurs to create technologies and foods that can actually enhance adherence or she's dumping strategies we know about that too so I feel like so much of it is what you're willing to accept from yourself if you're if you are willing to accept this seesaw obesity thing that so many people get on on and off this yo-yo effect if you're willing to accept that that's fine but I just feel like it's a mental state I really do I see once you achieve a certain amount of success people start sabotaging themselves they start they start dwelling on the fact that they're doing well but how long can they sustain this it starts being a big fat mindfuck and and that's when you say like what's sustainable what's sustained a lot more than you're willing to do

138:49what's sustainable is style a bit I know but you know I mean it's like there's a thing like we're giving people these escape clauses we're giving them these these these parachutes they can pull don't pull the parachute just have a cheat day that's fine but don't get off your diet have a cheap meal you know giant Sunday throw some syrup on that get that whipped cream going do it once but don't live your life like that that's nonsense and I think that for yeah I wouldn't dispute anything you said I think people need to hear not just like this like well you can't sustain it the keto giant's not sustain their control if you do if you face for three days that will give you a lot of confidence that you have control over food fasting no diet is sustainable it's not sustainable over if you look for general population and you get a bunch of weak and you get them together how

139:49many of them are gonna keep it together how many are gonna run every day how many we're gonna work out every day very very very few usually with outliers in particular just by what virtue of what you do how many people are willing to put the work in to achieve this know how many who's gonna how many people can achieve this physique very very few rank you so we're talking about outliers we're talking about how that's what I like I like outliers I don't like people that goods to hood I can't hear that I'm naughty that's dangerous so like that is worse than carbs that's why we talk a lot in the book about behaviors because if you change your behavior that's what we I think there's not enough research focused on let's look at the people who actually achieve weight loss and if you lead people who achieve it and keep it off they do it through many different methods whether it's low

140:37carb low fat whatever it is but let's look at the behaviors that they make and those behaviors can tell us a lot about people one thing we know is they practice for they they weigh themselves very often they so they're accountable they they practice some form of cognitive restraint whether it's weighing food recording macros ketogenic fat restriction whatever it is and also they exercise regularly and one there's physiological benefits to that exercise lowers the body fat setpoint that your body will defend so it actually has a physiological benefit but also just mentally like you said I mean I never if you took me back thirty years ago and you told me hey lay or when I was 10 years old you said hey when I was like bullied and picked on had no self-esteem you're gonna squat six hundred sixty eight pounds one day on your back at 201 pounds and sent a it's been

141:31broken since then but a world record I would have been like there's no way there's no way but when you have discipline like you said and you that doesn't just people say you should have more confidence that's a that's horseshit advice the confidence is built through you set a goal and you achieve yes you set a goal you achieve and you don't start out to say I'm gonna set a world record and that's your first goal right you use I like what Will Smith say say you lay a brick as perfectly as you can lay it you do it again and you do it again and you do it again and you talk to anybody who's successful in anything they didn't start out saying I'm gonna do this earth-shattering thing right they started out and built that confidence over years and years of achieving small goals which then led them to their big tower onto something because I think that the mental state in which you

142:20approach anything a workout routine a lifestyle the way you decide to live your life that is critical and here's one of the things that people are cynical about that's probably one of the best sources of fuel is inspiration from other motivated people go to David Goggins Instagram every day watch that Savage watch what he met this and yeah he's awesome but go to people like him Cameron Haynes go to go to go to people like to the rock like these people just do it there's no escape there's no book you'd sustain that that's not I don't want to hear that that's nonsense and failing is good it's okay I can say like you're not pushing yourself well I think what I say sustainability I mean if it's if it's because everybody has stuff that they find again you find a carb restricted diet to be easier to stick to it feels better it feels better for you yeah and that's fun but if but if somebody is

143:15over here and says you know I'm eating a low-fat diet I feel great my blood markers are good I have plenty of energy what's wrong with that nothing's wrong with that exactly unquestionably exists right there's a there's a giant difference between although some people eat peanuts and they die right yeah I don't know that there's just the body's just very very different they very exactly they're the caloric requirements the the nutritional requirements if that's what's hard about this right is finding this one thing that is best for you yes and objectively and you know and being really analyzing your actual physical performance which very very few people do they kind of say well I feel pretty good but by what marker right what's your personal best what are you trying to accomplish are you monitoring your heart rate are you monitoring your work output like what

144:04are you doing to show that this diet is optimal for you yeah well and part of that is like it you know it's hard to get that's a lot of money that's gonna be spent to get that data ya know for an individual so part of it is gonna have to be what do you feel good on and what do you feel like is again most sustainable for you because no matter what that people want to die it what people really want is they want I don't want to have to track and I don't want have to sacrifice anything and I want to get to my goal well tough that's not gonna happen you have to pick what you're gonna sacrifice right so if you say I hate tracking calories so I'm just not gonna eat carbs because I can regulate my body weight that way yeah do that I had a post on Twitter that was like one of my most popular Twitter posts I said you know health improvements are largely driven

144:51by caloric restriction and weight loss but if if you like vegan if you like keto if you like carnivore if you and I just listed a bunch of different diets and they help you create a restriction and it keeps you at a healthy weight then yeah hell yeah like if somebody says I like eating a vegan but I'm not interested in losing weight but ketogenic intermittent fasting it's very very easy for me I love the food and I feel better and I think all my biomarkers are improving you don't need any other reasoning for why you should do it yeah with him it works no connect gas queues when you say diets aren't sustainable the data doesn't show that were you talking about calorie restricted diets that overall weight loss diets are you talking about dietary choices in terms of like ketogenic diet excellent question so it's that if you lose weight we cannot keep it off that

145:43is that is the big problem is that most people are able to lose weight and they cannot keep it off because one that the self defense system that we talked about is really way too quickly their body gets into this state where it's always trying to regain that weight back part of it part of it yeah like losing it more quickly there's debate about this but I would say that it's you have to create a more extreme deficit to do that and so you are activating your body's self defense system more intensely if I had to say it that way so the rebound is usually bigger as well so it's it's trying to find a way of cake get this weight off and then let's really emphasize to people that the diet after the diet nobody talks about this except for us in the book nobody talks about this my co-writer for the book Peter Baker and I we spent were spent chapters talking about when you go in

146:41transition into oK we've lost the weight we want to lose we're healthier you have to have the same amount of discipline and intensity to then maintain that loss because if you let up if you let your foot off the gas now you don't necessarily have to be at the same caloric restriction level but if you just let yourself kind go on a vacation I'm gonna eat I'm gonna eat when I will boom gained ten pounds and everybody knows people like this who they go and they do this yeah and you've just you've literally just undid months of hard work right in one week would because a if you could maintain that for a set amount of time say six months so I think that if someone can maintain that weight lost for six months that's like sort of like the tipping point where okay can go on got my wheelhouse right here good ah so so that's a great point so leptin is a you I'm sure you've

147:35heard of people talk about leptin so when you lose fat leptin subscreen goes down because fat cells secrete it and it's kind of like your body's thermostat and body fat everybody has like a setpoint their body likes to be yet so if you lose body fat you secrete less left and hunger goes up metabolic rate goes down ghrelin tries to yes and ghrelin is in opposition to leptin so you you this is your body like a thermostat so if you're on a thermostat if you said it's 75 goes to low kick the heat on bump it back up goes to high kick the cooling on go back down left and acts that way with your metabolic rate and your hunger when you get down to a low body fat leptin is low your body you have a drive to regain that weight your your hunger is higher your but your your metabolic rate is lower leptin still stays low even years after a diet in people who have kept the

148:26weight off so there's you would think there's still be a biological drive to regain the weight that said and I'm going to go out and here so any of my scientists who are listening on this feel free to call me out in the carpet if you think I'm wrong but just like obese people obese people actually have high levels of leptin they have high levels of leptin but they become left and resistant but then insensitive right if you stay anyway there is evidence that if you stayed a reduced body weight for one or two years that that can become your new set point that your body defense I think what can happen is even if your leptin doesn't go out or two years not six months yeah it's a little bit longer it's a little bit longer so what ISM what's happening I think your wife takers well I think it's probably multifaceted because nothing your body is so redundant usually nothing is ever one thing

149:15typically but at that point I think one of the things that happens is probably your body becomes more sensitive to the leptin you have because you're leaner now I want to talk about performance because this is a big thing with athletes and particularly in my field with fighters many of them were reluctant to try ketogenic diet initially because of the the first few weeks are pretty rough and it really inhale inhibits training and you know you get that keto flu feeling and I've experienced that too but overall is the ketogenic diet a good strategy for someone that's involved in some sort of a brutal athletic pursuit like football or wrestling it can be absolutely and it will be dependent upon being keto adapted over time and actually training in a state of ketosis so you force those adaptations over time we know the ketogenic diet is glycogen sparing overtime glycolytic pathways will be

150:15decreased over time so that may impair an aerobic power output initially but I think that some most people something I think a good amount of people could adapt back to especially if they're taking things like creatine monohydrate and taking various supplements that can kind of fill that gap to meet the glycolytic anaerobic energy demands you know Zac bitter yeah yeah Zac bitter who holds the American record for the fastest 24 hour run or 24 100 mile run he did it in an 11 hours and 40 minutes insane yeah he ran a hundred miles it's yeah just nonsense actually correspond with him on Twitter one time no not a zealot by the way very smart Bullock I think brought him to my attention and actually we're looking at some of the you know muscle biopsies from various athletes that are doing similar things yeah he's on a ketogenic diet essentially but when he does these

151:14long races he takes in a considerable amount of glucose yep mmm yeah he uses those gels and you know hundreds and hundreds already like very carb adapted so right so you just you just want to especially a hundred mile race you titrate in small them instead of drinking fifty or hundred grams of carbs 20 grams of carbs every hour or two may be more than enough say yes if you need to correct us yeah well zach has a podcast that he also does with shaun baker and he basically eats mostly meat I mean Zach's diet consists of most like rib eyes so he's fully cured and he's using glucose I think glucose and this may aggravate some of the keto people out I think glucose is one of the most powerful performance-enhancing substances out there really especially in the context of that where your glycogen levels are being depleted over time and even from a training perspective very small amounts of

152:14glucose are anti catabolic maybe argue anabolic in the context of certain scenarios void mayweather drinks a coca-cola but small amounts right after he trains well is there any benefit to that well I mean you're gonna get glycogen replenishment right and actually there's there's research out of layman's lab years ago that showed that actually sucrose replenishes glycogen and muscle faster than pure glucose which is interesting huh probably because the the fructose gets taken up by the liver so the glucose you do eat the liver doesn't steal steal any of it and it goes your glucose go in a muscle but I was owns too so it's this science very new but exogenous ketones especially in the in the context of aerobic performing like ki genex or like Keystone ester ki genex products gray ketone Esther's most of the science of behind ketone esters but there are you know valid applications for the

153:09ketone salts that are emerging on the market - like eugenics I think that the science just over the last couple years has been incredible I'm urging on that and I think it's something to watch over time it's a new fuel source it's like the fourth macronutrient right we have carbs protein so that's all fats and alcohol yeah arguably a community so I I view ketones as they are a calorie containing energy source so they are a fourth macaroni now let me ask you this if you were doing nutritional consultant for say someone who's a UFC champion and they said you know I want to get on the optimal diet for performance you don't think that a ketogenic diet is the optimal diet for performance is that safe to say or you would have to I think I think one it's going to be individual you certainly wouldn't do it in the minutes of a camp right so no no so two month can but such a new incentive

154:01season thing - it's it's such a nuanced question but the the problem is is you don't necessarily get an off season the in the because if they call you with a fight yeah look nicely upon if you turn it down so I think based on the research I've seen I think you're hard-pressed to convince me that a ketogenic diet is worse than a non ketogenic diet on endurance I think that's pretty clear and there may actually be some benefits depending on the individual as far as repeated Sprint's or things where you need that anaerobic system I am NOT ready to say that the ketogenic diets gonna be as good I think that a non ketogenic diet offers you now this is where ketone supplements may be actually the best thing possible because you could be using glucose so you're getting that fuel source and taking a ketone supplement where you're getting that fuel as well not on a ketogenic diet but

155:00taking ketone supplements that well again I don't that I'd like it's you know I think I want to see more research so let's see Maurice fats carbohydrates maybe amino acids creatine I mean you know just basically trying to leverage all the various substrates that your body can use especially under and if we're talking about an erotic legit so you want to have a suite of different fuel sources you know and non rely you like metal bought the term metabolic flexibility which is kind of used quite often but I think if you train and get your body fat and keto adapted that provides benefits for recovery it provides benefits if you're getting what is the benefits for recovery enhanced you know lower inflammation lower chronic inflammation overtime you know chronic inflammation can contribute to insulin resistance poor like neuro inflammation if you're getting concussions or even sub-concussive

155:58events over time can actually cause a lot of damage and I think is the mechanism that decreases inflammation with the ketogenic diet as opposed to an on a number of mechanisms I mean just simply lowering insulin spikes and glucose but the nlrp3 inflammasome is something that we looked at there was a study where actually we used the ketone ester and it's published in a journal Nature Medicine showing that in response to LPS which is kind of like a steam inflammatory powerful inflammatory stimulant that it reduces that and suppresses inflammatory pathways for a particular pathway compared to compared to you mean so well when your study you're always comparing two things yeah so so what was the control group the control group for the inflammation or it was just compared to no yes okay yeah so in the context of being in a state of ketosis it reduces an inflammatory

157:03pathway think of it as a hub and when that's activated you have a host of inflammatory cytokines that flow throughout your body and your brain and causes persistent low-grade neuro inflammation and inflammation in the body that can impede recovery processes over time and I think that really contributes to to brain health too so I might be getting a little far ahead of myself because that is it's animal work it's convincing animal work looking at a particular pathway that's pretty well-defined and before you get to this is there one zero variation between low-carb versus ketosis in elevation of ketone levels in your blood right but I mean in terms of is there a benefit to the ketogenic to being a state of ketosis with this reduction of information versus low-carb I believe there is just by elevating the metabolite beta-hydroxybutyrate but I do think even low-carb has some

158:02anti-inflammatory effects what optimal would be ketosis I like I said I don't think it's going to be optimal for everybody but I know there's going to be benefits to maintaining low to moderate levels of ketones for neurological health and also for for recovery and maybe performance Lane you were wincing at the mention of inflammation more so that so we mentioned recovery from exercise inflammation and calorie deficit is a very powerful anti anti-inflammatory so I mean Lane Lane addresses that thank you for the context my fellow scientists nuns I appreciate that so one thing I want to because because people get it's easy to get into black and white thinking we hear inflammation and we think that's bad that's bad so there's some studies that tell us quite a bit about inflammation your body actually has an optimal level of inflammation too little inflammation is actually bad as well

158:57so if you first chronic I was talking about chronic yes this is a lot of thing a lot of scientists miss to is it acute we talked about mTOR and cancer and your acute versus chronic and how scientists even mess this stuff up but you so if you if you look at studies of recovery from exercise and muscle growth I'm focusing on this but I'll bring it back around if you give ibuprofen to healthy people who have normal levels of inflammation ibuprofen inhibits muscle growth if you give it to elderly people with high levels of inflammation they grow more muscle so this means that the body for recovery has an optimal level of inflammation it likes to be in there is a kind of a curve here it's a clocks to inhibitor and beta-hydroxybutyrate is also a costumer right and so the part of growing muscle and recovery is actually inflammation macrophages and all these sorts of things are involved in that

159:57process now if it gets run away if it's too much it's not a good thing but if it's too little it's also not a good thing and II Galpin did a great job on your show of talking about a recovery versus adaptation right yeah so one of the things he said if you do ice baths you do these sorts of things you're in the short-term allowing yourself to recover faster but you're also limiting how much adaptation you're going to incur and I love that because it was people miss this they say you know if you if you're somebody in the off season if you're trying to grow get more lean body mass or trying to get better at something it's probably good to let your body like for lack of better term have some inflammation and not in a long term but in response to that training session but then if you're in a camp again this is where it's context dependent or like I'm a powerlifter getting ready for a

160:47meet and I'm supposed to be squatting four times a week I've done that before and I'm so sore that I can't squat my fourth session then I iced bath or something I'm not worried about growing muscle in that time I'm worried about getting recovered enough that I can go do my next training session because that is a lot more important for my competition coming up than having that little bit of extra muscle so in camp probably a good idea of post-season not a good idea yeah I mean unless again it's all contextual dependent right like if you start getting so sore that you can only train like twice a week then maybe a certain level but that points back to that there's an optimal range of inflammation that your body probably should be in that's optimal for health as well now I don't think like doing a ketogenic diet for somebody it's gonna take him out that necessarily but I always want to

161:34give context because people hear these things and they always think it's a positive like in terms of recovery I believe that it can enhance the adaptive process associated with recovery and I also believe that being in a ketogenic state will enhance your readiness your resilience and your recovery so from a military perspective too I believe and and that needs to be validated and studied but something that that we study when you I'm sorry to review but when you advise this to the military do they do you put them on a specific meal plan - or do they have it's more like grants were this is being studied at a very fundamental very controlled level from cells to animal models to you know human clinical trials going on and where the data is being collected now and some of it is taken empirically and anecdotally from the field or just from various exclusive channels I guess I would say

162:29so that I am coming at it as a biased and I'm kind of speaking ahead of the science but I do think that science already exists showing that you have a greater adaptive effect if just by virtue of lowering inflammation over time in athletes especially this probably pertains more to endurance athletes so it really needs to be studied and in resistance try and MMA fighters and things like that so there was a recent study and I can't remember the researchers name I'll send it to you I had a lot of criticisms of it but they did show that ketogenic person on ketogenic diet in people who were lifting weights trying to get bigger that there was actually slightly less muscle mass using the ketogenic diet do you think that would be because of the less protein no they equated protein I'm pretty sure I want to say they equated protein now I don't know for sure so I

163:22don't want to say authoritative day but I understand ketosis you're gonna have these did they adjust for calories I believe they did so again I could be wrong and so I'll go back and look and I'll send it to you if you want it but it is possible like again for every give me there's a gotcha in certain things right so like these things that activate different pathways well part of what ketones may signal as a deficit because usually you don't have them in a surplus right so you know man we don't know if you can like for example like a tofu G right like for if we talk about performance and muscle everybody here is a toughie G and that's a very other way that's such a weird way to pronounce that because it's Auto and phagocytosis so it shouldn't be Auto Fei Jie but anyway it's a very rapidly merging science and Naomi would tell wrote a book about this and it just it's

164:14like a New York Times and that really covers a science so license last two or three years yeah lysosomal remodeling and degradation of proteins but very hot what what gets me is like people who are a big on intermittent fasting they'll say well increases at offer G but you also they're also saying you can grow all this muscle and it's going to be best for you know building muscle but that's not true because Auto fizzy tough og is part of protein degradation so if you're increasing that system by definition that's less muscle so your there's always a give me Anna gotcha for one benefit there might be a drawback now depending on your individual situation maybe it makes more sense right like having the most muscle mass possible may not be the best thing for health now we know that having having more muscle mass than normal is good for health but may be having like absolute peak

165:02muscle mass may not be the best thing for help yeah you know so it's like that's why I was trying to say earlier there's never gonna be one diet that just fixes all of our problems it depends on the individual and what they're trying to get out of it just like if I went to and again I'm not it have much I watched MMA for years loved your commentary that's where I learned a lot of stuff about him and MMA but if I went to a Brazilian jiu-jitsu instructor and I said what's the best technique he's gonna look at me like I'm an idiot right because you're not just not just gonna say yeah armbar every time that's the best technique for you Jitsu and that's when people say what's the best diet it's the same thing right it's completely contextual dependent right depends on you and in the case of ma it depends on your opponent as well what your goals are yeah strategies so interact --ax I think

165:51what we were trying to really emphasize is that individuality dependent but also I really want to emphasize that they show us calories matter you know calories matter even in even if you're eating low carb you can't just eat as much as you want and the mopar B is a very viable option yes you induce and sustain a calorie deficit that can contribute to body composition but even like you brought up Floyd Mayweather earlier which I thought was great because you said he drinks a coke after training well it's hard to argue with his results but then again sometimes elite athletes can get away with a lot of really dumb because they're so genetically superior that they were going to do well no matter what didn't Michael Jordan need a Big Mac before every game huh no not true it's taken baked potato steak and baked potato where's the Big Mac myth myth come from Hopkins buy

166:44mcdonalds steak and baked potatoes my wife can eat two or three Big Macs in a sitting and wash it down with a full sugar coat and still gain nothing yeah but she some people can do that some people but this so it's it's did he become this great because he ate this way or can he eat this way because he's this great athlete it's probably the latter right so we wouldn't recommend like somebody like if somebody's sitting at home and they want to become the greatest boxer ever don't go you know probably drinking coke isn't the first step right right but this is what we do with nutrition because we pick out people that we follow and we go oh I'm just gonna do that and it's so individual sidelines and marathons like they'll hand off cokes to people just as I've seen it because people just want it for fuel people just want it for fuel taste in it is not a bad idea when

167:39you're doing something that's as grueling as America see I don't want to say it's a bad I don't yeah I'm not against it either if you're Harbor now it makes sense you know dense right yeah but you want calorie dense stuff when you're saying absolutely again context is so important because we said well don't ever drink a coke well if you were starving to death I promise you you drink a coke right you know so it's it's and if you need quick energy it's probably not the worst thing that Floyd Mayweather could possibly do patient but not optimal yeah I believe those honey waffles you know like when they're doing hikes and stuff but again at the end of the day if if he if his carbohydrate didn't take it I don't know what it is but if he's eating five six hundred grams of carbohydrate a day is it really hurting him to have 40 grams of sugar from a coke if he's like

168:25maintaining its body weight performing optimally probably probably not when you think about the kind of grueling workouts that God puts in and maybe maybe that's the only way he can maybe I don't know again I'm I am rising maybe that's the only way he can get enough food in mmm is to eat really energy dense sources of food to maintain his body weight and if you started saying well we need you to eat chicken breast and broccoli and you know this organic rice and all that's kind he he might start dropping weight like a stone and his performance go in the tank so this is why context is so important and again like when we talk about people think how many times have you seen two guys in the Octagon and just looked at their bodies and gone this one guys gonna smash this other guy like just in the primal part of your brain because he was built like a tank and then the other

169:13guy who looks like nothing just goes out and completely obliterates something happens all the time yeah all the time right so it's completely context dependent the biggest thing is to make sure that you don't run out of fuel during these things right or whatever and whatever your your sport is I mean again I'm known as a carb guy and I had this power lifter one time telling me he's like don't you think you should carb load the night before polycythemia I was like dude you do in nine reps like you're you're doing so you get three attempts on each lift squat bench press and deadlift you're not depleting carb Limited's yeah you're not like he takes what really amazing even like you can fast for a week which I did and deadly and it's not a significant inhibitor of your of your performance whereas like running would be or doing row prolonged you know resistance training two three three

170:08hours on them but it's probably not optimal to go in fasted yeah drink of it but you know it's it's you have to pick the context the individual and honestly it people probably gonna want to hear this from a scientist but we don't know enough about this stuff yet to really say for each individual person what's best for them and that's why we kind of got to go by feel we know you don't have to go drinking Gatorade throughout your one hour workout gym typically you know I'm I'm drinking ketones but it's you know it's not going to offer you any advantage it's not and I did that for many years actually and I think guys still do it now of course we see it all the time I mean you gotta make your shake in the gym and drink it intra work one of the things that drove me nuts was I kind of got a little back and forth with Tim Noakes on Twitter and he kind of made it out to seem that you know

170:59people were just missing some of his research because people in academia or that peer review is broken who is Tim Noakes oh sorry he's a big low-carb proponent he's a professor in South Africa I want to say yeah yeah and very knowledgeable and opinionated but very nology he said to me he's like well that's because you've never challenged convention because I was and I Dom knows I have challenged every convention in the fitness industry that there ever was but it's just you know when when people ask me he's both going about it yeah assertive but I'm also open-minded yeah I'm very open-minded I just don't like if you can't show me a hard evidence you know like Todd there was a great quote from Thomas Sol that I saw the other day he said you could ask these in science and go a long way in terms of sorting out compared to what where's your hard evidence you know and

171:54what is the cost right so it's well low-carb is better compared to what and what's the cost on performance or any of these other things and then where's your hard evidence right so this is why like I said science over time yes you can have industry influences you can have muddled data and some scientists fake data we've we've both come across this scientists who have fake data how frustrating is that oh it makes me so incensed in fact I won't say anybody by name but I used to be in business with somebody who I found out that I had no hard evidence but I had a lot of circumstantial evidence that they were faking data and it even happens in cancer research it's a huge role in cancer and I took this person out to dinner and I told them was I was like we're done like this thing we're doing is done and and thank goodness I did because it came out later people

172:51started replicating trying to replicate his data and nobody could replicate his data and and they still had a pretty big following even now but you know it's it's one of those things that it makes me so mad because and people get so frustrated because they feel like if they feel like scientists are just an industries pocket why are they gonna believe anything any of us say you know it's so frustrating and that's why motivation money power ego if elapsed it's a company's funding you for a particular supplement and you come out with consistently with negative data what's the you know incentive for them to keep funding you but if you if you're always showing positive results on supplement studies supplements what companies will want to fund you of course now cores but you know it's so it's so Dean but I also want people to keep in mind that it's got to be done in

173:39a very controlled blinded fashion that's the only way around it I keep reminding people like people who say things like we found the cure for cancer and the government is suppressing it and like and all the scientists are just in the pipe you what you're saying is you're saying that every scientist on the planet who does cancer research is an immoral unethical piece of that's what you're saying because you tell me they don't have friends and family who are dealing with cancer and they're suppressing this research come on now yeah you know and that's that's the other big I'm a small government guy and I'm like I said a libertarian but one of the things that makes me cringe about libertarians sometimes is these big elaborate conspiracy theories that come up around science and whatnot like you realize like a senator can't even a text a dick pic to his his side-chick

174:26without like it winding up all over Twitter you think they constructed these big elaborate theories they can't even tie their shoes in the morning without spending ten thousand dollars you know so the idea that like all this research is being suppressed by the government I'm not saying it's never happened but I think it's pretty darn rare mmm well gentlemen we just did three plus hours thank you really felt like six thanks for illuminating this stuff which is still it's so complex it's part of the problem and I think we could do a hundred of these shows and we'd never cover all the topics or all the issues or all the details and I think it's so incredibly difficult for people to find the right diet and program that works for them I'd like to add one thing that the science is rapidly emerging and the metabolic health summit which is happening in the end of January

175:21beginning of February next year 2019 we'll be bringing in the leading scientists that are talking about all the different topics right now include weight loss and that's going to be in LA it's actually there's a flyer on your book there if you look inside they're giving you a flyer all right la January 31st to February 3rd in Long Beach metabolic health summit dot-com it's going to be a very comprehensive group of basic scientists clinical scientists entrepreneurs and people everyday people that are just interested in this space you going I will be at it I'm helping to sort of organize and promote it but also moderating some of the things we're going to hit on basically every topic that was discussed in my last podcast in this podcast the leading scientist I'm gonna show up in Hickel yeah so we wonít Lee what laying there too and I think it would be great to have a panel discussion that

176:18addresses this with a couple more experts and personalities and that I think it's just it's amazing how much information you have to absorb yeah it's really what I've done so many diet podcasts and I'm still a well that's that's why I like you I always tell se people you know it's hard because if you're not going to do a degree yourself or do research yourself it's so hard to know who like you kinda have to pick people that you trust yeah right and it's so hard to know who to trust because there was something that Gregg Knuckles really smart guy said that I think kind of ties things together nicely he said people are really good at knowing when somebody has more knowledge than them about a subject like you talked to somebody for a little bit and you you really can get an impression pretty quickly if they know more or less than you are about the same what they're really bad at doing is

177:04figuring out amongst two people who know more than them who is the more knowledgeable on the tomb they are very bad at picking that out so you kind of gotta pick people who you trust now if you're looking for people to trust notice the three magic words that me and him both sit on here today at one point I don't know what usually experts they don't make broad claims they don't use superlatives they don't say things like worst never always there usually putting context to everything and they're providing you with information that helps illuminate you that everything is nuanced and that's why like I'm sure again I'll relate it to MMA if you talk to anybody who's an expert in any different discipline and you ask them a broad question you're gonna get a really broad answer and if you ask them a specific question give them a lot of context then they'll give you a specific

177:56answer what I would you agree with that yes definitely so I think someone's really strong on one side did kind of deep and look for conflicts of interest to okay so I think that's kind of an important thing I try to be transparent as much as possible on sort of things were involved in so I think that's super important yeah and I'm not I'm not without bias to I mean I sell stuff I've got a book out I've got another book coming out I have a website you know so it's yeah but you're not actually well while you're not advocating any particular approach you're kind of approaching it from right what I'm selling is it really sexy the complete contest prep guide and this is available all those places by Elaine Kham Kham and your Twitter bio Lane Instagram bio Lane and Dom yeah Aikido nutrition IRG and a ketone technologies is our company it's an information website I don't have any

178:50products per se at least not yet but I put products on there that I personally use and kind of vet it out that I think could be helpful and just a lot of information like your your prior podcast with me is on there and Tim Ferriss and and Rhonda Patrick to sew that right on the front page um your Twitter and Instagram yeah Dominic dot D'Agostino dot Katie I think is Instagram not a huge Instagram back but D'Agostino da g OS t i2 is my twitter handle and dominic D'Agostino for Facebook too so thank you gentlemen I think we got a lot of composting thank you so much really appreciate appreciate appreciate