James Damore

00:01five four three two one and we're live James what's up how are you man okay don't freak out about your your sound of your voice in the headphones this is the first time you've ever worn headphones or podcast definitely the first time I've heard myself talk weird after a second yeah it's weird you get over it be conscious about it really all right take them off you want it's freaking you out too much I think I'm gonna get through this just keep this sucker close to you so first of all thanks for doing this you've been on this crazy sort of whirlwind tour mm-hmm have you got anywhere you just been doing it most room mostly from your house mostly from my house just on this guy now for people who don't know the story let's give them the short version of it you were working at Google and what prompt you to write this memo yes they would have these company-wide meetings where they just

01:06push a lot of this diversity stuff and some of it was kind of weird so I decided to go these these secret meetings sort of that were about a hundred people completely unrecorded and they would talk about some of the things that they're doing and it would really contradict what they're saying publicly where oh no we're not you know changing any of our hiring practices for these candidates and they said yeah we basically are making it easier for some kind of nice to get in and you know I voiced some concerns but people just chained me I was like no you're wrong you're just like have white male privilege I said you have white male privilege that was the actual word these yeah there's a lot of that going on and so they asked for feedback on the program so I I wrote this document to clarify my thoughts I sent it to them they looked at it but you know they just

02:00ignored it never told me anything so I went to a couple more of these programs and you know I gave similar feedback I gave the same document they kept looking at it but just never said anything and you know I I would send it to random people that I knew and half the people be like yes exactly this is what I've been thinking and the other half would maybe disagree with some points but it would never be a you know emotional outbursts or anything it would just be like oh are you sure this is actually happening it's like yes because you know I've actually been to these unrecorded meetings this is what's happening so if you could get into specifics like when you're in these meetings and they're talking about diversity what is their concern and is it there they're trying to promote an image of diversity are they trying to promote actual diversity do they think that there's a benefit for

02:51diversity or is it a part of their public public image and is it a lot of it to avoid criticism because I think there's a big issue with I mean if you don't have all your bases covered to black women to Asian men if you don't have all your bases covered you can get like pretty roundly criticized as not being diverse or being possibly racist when you do that you're kind of yeah so Google definitely has a huge target on its back and so there are people that want to complain that oh Google is not diverse therefore it's racist and sexist and so that's a lot of their fear they look at their representation and then compare it to the overall US population and say oh we only have 20% women we should have 50% there's obviously some sexism happening and so a lot of their stuff is oh we need to fix this because you know all the sexism is bad and obviously if you

03:46disagree with sexism that's of course bad and I obviously don't you know want there to be any sexism but I just don't think that that's the sole cause of this disparity in representation yeah it seems like in the interest of promoting an image of diversity they're willing to bypass science and the truth and the reality of culture the reality of human biology and evolutionary psychology there's just so much that they're willing to look past to get to this one thing which seems to be like this really important thing today society that you want to promote an image of diversity yeah that's it's more important than anything so like when you're in these claps or these I mean I wouldn't call it a class what would you call it a meeting whatever they are yeah some of them were classes some were you know our day-long programs until you teach you things like what would they teach you you talk about

04:45unconscious bias oh oh like you like you might be racist you have to find the recess menu and yeah there's a whole program that's trying to retrain your brain to think to think about race in a new way or something so they're just assuming you're guilty pretty much because you're white i well yeah I mean they look at the representation say racism sexism do black people have to go to this I and they no one has to know as to they are definitely pushing it on people and now managers are being evaluated by how well they promote diversity and inclusion oh and you know it's just a slippery slope and I think it'll eventually become part of our performance review so if you're a white woman do you have to go to this I mean did that are you encouraged to go to this are you like hey you made it through like this will have been looking for you're fine or if you're an Indian

05:44woman even better right is that how it works would you still have to go there and approach your unconscious biases yeah they say everyone has these unconscious biases even towards white people do they have those where they have like black people with their unconscious biases towards white people so they never acknowledge that anyone could be racist against white people of course would you that's all this like if you have you can only be racist if you have power or sexist if you have power and they believe that the red the racist part yeah I think so well that's insane that's a redefinition it's a very recent redefinition of the term racism but it's very slippery a very dangerous because you could see it as you know promoting in fact like exonerating racism towards other ethnicities or towards white people or towards people that you feel like are in a privet

06:37it's class you get away with it cuz no big deal because they're the ones who are racist even if it's not even that person if it's people who look like them that have lived for centuries like somehow or another you are a guilty person yeah right with your white privilege so like what would they tell you when you would go to these do you do did you like express some discontent or yeah I my main concern was them saying 50% in the population look who only has 20% and so we're yeah yeah and you know there were clear reasons at least in my mind that that's not as simple as they're making out to be and that you know there are these some differences and that could explain some of the issues that women are facing and so a lot of these women issues in tech I feel are actually not really gender issues they're just you know women on average are more cooperative for example and so

07:39they may find it harder to you know lean in in the corporate world like Sheryl Sandberg is saying but you know there are men that also feel like that I'm not very assertive I'm actually pretty shy and so I feel the same stuff it's not that you know there's a ton of sexism it's maybe that male typical behavior is rewarded mmm just as you know competitiveness is rewarded in a lot of corporate world but it's not that we're just oh you're a woman therefore you're obviously bad at coding you know no one is ever saying that right I think there is absolutely an issue with assertive women being treated very differently than a sort of men like an assertive woman is a like you don't want to be around them that's like the the bias and that's a real issue I think for women that want to enter into any sort of a competitive field and you know where a man would be

08:32assertive if a woman does the exact same thing she's looked down upon he's looked upon like a problem woman or someone you don't want to work with whereas the guy is just ambitious yeah although some people will twist that and say that because I mean a lot of it is just they try to fit their ideology and they see one data point and they extrapolate they see these studies and it's true that these women are viewed as less likeable but they are seen as just as competent and so their performance reviewed isn't affected really by being assertive it's just that socially they may not be as liked as much right but there's got to be a factor in the way they behave because yeah for men a ballbusting successful man is supposed to be like looked up to like no this is the guy who's kicking ass in the corporate world he's doing it right like you know bob is ruthless but if Jenny's

09:23ruthless like you don't want to be around her you know it's it's a weird it's just that's I feel like that if there is a real bias with many obviously I don't work in town yeah but I would assume that that would be a real bias yeah and I mean I think some of the solution to that is just allowing people to be more cooperative and you know actually so for example at Google you're really rewarded for owning a particular project and seeing that one project go through but if you're someone that is just you know can really help a lot of different people and you're not necessarily the sole owner of any individual thing but you're you provide a lot of value to the company that isn't really seen as positive as someone that really drove the project alone mmm that's interesting yeah that seems like a bad thing for teamwork right is that just a bad philosophy or something that

10:17got stuck in the way the system works or I think it's sort of just it's hard to evaluate if I did you know 10% of my time on 10 different projects and I helped them that make sense yeah so you'd have to essentially trust the workers instincts and work ethic and yeah now the blowback from this has been very intriguing you know as an outsider like looking at it first when I first heard about it you know I thought well this mean angry man must have written something saying that women's soccer tech or they suck at this and you know and people reacting to this blatant misogynistic tribe that I are ascribed that I was was hearing about when I read it I was so confused because I was like where's the mean stuff like where is it and you also think the other thing that was really confusing was that some people were reprinting it without citation right did that freak you out

11:12like when you're being misrepresented yeah especially when people would say oh it was so unscientific because it didn't have citation right and that was their entire argument who did it who printed it without side citations because some major publications republished it yeah I think it was Gizmodo or yeah motherboard or something I why the would they do that without citations it seems so unreasonable and so irresponsible I think a lot of these companies just have a certain narrative that they're trying to push yeah and so you even you know I've tried to talk to a lot of these reporters and I'll give our along interviews with some of them and at the end they'll just write the same sort of article like oh yeah he's just a misogynist yeah and so I think even if I can convince the individual journalist they are under pressure by their boss to write a certain type of article yeah

12:12what a weird world we're in right now when it comes to that because I was looking for something that could be could be like evidence of massage the only thing that I could find this is a very mild criticism is that you were saying I believe you used the term neurotic that women were more likely to be neurotic Oh neuroticism right yeah yeah yeah so that's one where a lot of women will this guy that's it that's all I mean but what did you base that on yes there's the psychological Big Five personality traits mhm and neuroticism is just one of them right but that's the actual term that they use and it's sort of unfortunate that that's a term yeah yeah it's that one I feel like maybe could have danced around that yeah but that's it I I think it's just I was too much into the like I've seen the word so often that I didn't really associate it with neurotic and all right

13:16yeah well I've seen a bunch of your conversations I've listened to you talk to Ben Shapiro and a couple of the folks and you know your thought process is very reasonable and very well sorted out and another thing that I'm not hearing from anybody is how you wrote a whole page and a half describing all the different ways that women could be more involved in tax or you can encourage more women into tax like this is not the work of a misogynist this is the work of someone who's carefully considering an issue and looking at it from a very what what I felt like and correct me if I'm wrong but that you felt frustrated that you were looking at something that was that people the way they were approaching this wasn't they weren't looking at it for what it was they had kind of decided how they were gonna describe it and how they were going to deal with it and it wasn't really based

14:13on facts or reality and certainly not on science and you sort of felt frustrated by this and you decided to try to interject with as much of the current science as you could that could possibly explain choices not why women are bad at it not why were they why they shouldn't be in it which is what I kept reading but more that why women choose to go into certain professions what could be the impediment and what we could do to maybe encourage more women to do it instead of doing this sort of blanket style diversity where you just like oh we need two of these and we do two of those right which is what I seem to think that they were doing is that is that a good assessment yeah by the way this will never trend on YouTube you might get 5 million hits it'll know that's a real problem too like there's a lot of censorship when it comes to these sort of conversations like they would

15:07rather look at me who looks like a meathead and look at you and go oh well these guys are just talking about women for now I mean right I mean do you feel that definitely and I you'll be labeled all right now and I've already been labeled all right it doesn't matter how many left wing positions I support I look alright yeah which is obviously like sexist and short misogynist racist all that stuff yeah well but I'm just labeling us because we're white manners yes a certain label because that it's yeah it's it's prejudice yeah I mean it really is but people don't mind prejudices in that regard you know they only like pride they don't they have an issue with prejudices when it comes to what they feel like are disenfranchised or you know marginalized people but white people them you know yeah you know that's the thought process right you can't be racist towards white people so

16:04like what are the most egregious things like one of the most ridiculous things they were trying to push when you were at these classes or meetings so I mean besides the fact of just certain things in our hiring process that would favor certain people which would create negative stereotypes for people just in general so I I one thing about stereotypes that they don't realize is that you know people will automatically create stereotypes no matter what and it's based on their environment so and we see this with affirmative action too and academia where if you create a sort of situation where peoples of population are performing differently then you'll automatically create the stereotype that oh maybe all the Asians are smart and all of the other minorities aren't as smart in this College right because you and you needed a 1,600 to get in if you're Asian and you need lower

17:00otherwise mm-hmm and so you'll automatically create that stereotype and that's negative for everyone because you know it creates this tension between the groups and they self segregate because of that while if you just put everyone in the same level then they'll just intermingle and it'll be great and so you know that has its native consequences and it may be illegal which is what I was trying to say in my document so that aspect I think is bad but then also you know once you think that Oh all of this is because of sexism and even though we can't really see overt signs of sexism like oh yeah you're a woman therefore you're bad and no one is saying these sexist slurs or anything then it must be some low-level bias that we all have and that's why they're pushing all this unconscious bias and microaggressions and just increasing everyone's sensitivity to oh you said something that could be

18:04interpreted in this one weird way and that might offend someone somewhere therefore you should never say anything and it's really stifling well I think we would all agree that we would all be better off if we treated people nicer yeah if we if we didn't have racism if we didn't have sexism we just appreciate people for their qualities and just could be very objective about that mm-hmm but when you're I would imagine when you're running a company as large as something like Google you kind of have to put fires out before you even see smoke right and like you the writing's on the wall when it comes to criticism today and anything that that people can point to when it you know when it's whether it's a percentage of women a percentage of minorities whatever it is where that they feel like is off I mean people will write articles about this it can damage your stock profile yeah right

19:04I mean it can it can like companies to take a hit on the stock market because of an article that someone could write about a lack of diversity like oh Jesus there or lack of diversity like that's a real issue yeah and there have been reports of companies that'll have these diversity programs and then blackmail companies if they don't take them so say you know Bill start complaining because you know all of these companies are the same and that they have about you know twenty to thirty percent women so they could do the same attack against anyone and so they blackmail a company say oh you need to do these these certain programs and if you don't then we'll start doing external pressure on you so who are the companies that are blackmailing them yes are the groups at least from what I've heard and this is all secondhand it's a lot of the programs that so they'll hire

19:55contractors to perform some of the diversity programs oh so they have sort of like Jesse Jackson used to do with the rainbow coalition right know that story behind that although this is the the second secondhand story but the secondhand story was that he would go into these groups and if anybody had said something whatever reason they had to get into this company they would go into this company and then they would charge them a tremendous amount of money to go in and create these diversity programs and if they didn't do that then they would shame the company and they were the claim the company was racist yeah you know Jesse Jackson I like this laundry list of things he wanted like jumbo shrimp cocktail it was crazy and limo rides like but really like like it's been kind of documented you know I mean I'd have to go back over it again I remember it only barely but the I mean

20:48that's where he got that moniker erased pimp that would he was essentially doing was race pimping and then he was going around and you know kind of threatening people that we will call you a racist we would call your company racist comply in this manner and that that's scary yeah I mean I see that a lot at Google not necessarily you know the same threatening but just people feel that they have to walk on eggshells otherwise they'll get reported to HR by some random activists within the company we have activists in the company yeah and you know that was sort of made public you know with all of this where there were some people that just really pushed and started complaining a ton based on my document they would email my HR everyone up my management chain and lead write all these posts and try to coordinate people to really shame me and then they started tweeting about it

21:47after and that's how it leaked externally whoo what was the criticism of the memo like did anything make sense did anything make you go mmm I could have worded that better I obviously the neuroticism yeah I I could have worded that differently I I mean the fact that I didn't talk about all the biases are that are against women as much mmm but it was really that this was a Google internal document and so we already have so much stuff about the potential biases against women and this was just the other side of the story the other perspective that wasn't being heard so yeah i-i-i don't really know any criticism that was really oh yeah that was definitely I should have done that man um so how you you would put this memo out there and then the memo got leaked and then once it got leaked you got fired yeah soon after but they knew about the memo already right so and they were cool with

22:54it like how long did the memo been floating around about a month Wow so as soon as it went public like yikes get rid of them yeah Wow it was it seems to just be a PR thing of course yeah but it's also it's weak you know it's like it's really disturbing that someone couldn't look at this for what it really is like he this is an opportunity to have a discussion about the subject right you know I mean here's this very detailed thing if you guys disagree with it let's debate it let's talk about it like I said the only thing that I thought was even remotely derogatory was that one word but that one idea that women are more prone to neuroticism other than that it just seemed to me to be evolutionary psychology it seemed to be like a lot of stuff that has already been really well researched yeah and this is some pretty clear differences and again it's not all

23:50women or all men right but there's a tremendous amount of evidence that shows that males lean towards certain professions and females lead towards other professions yeah and these are based on surveys of like half a million people so I'm people were saying oh yeah this is just one study that showed this like no that's many different studies across many different countries and you know there have been even experiments that linked this to just prenatal testosterone yeah which is pretty strong evidence that there's some biological link we're all so if you have a company like Google which by the way before we go any further I'm a big fan of Google I use their products all the time I have a Google phone I mean I think they're amazing I think their browser is excellent I like I use Chrome I think they're they kick ass every morning I go to my phone and I check the Google News

24:43I'm a whole set up but that's like one of the first things I do I check the news on my phone from Google so it's not like I'm an anti Google person but if if there wasn't some sort of evolutionary psychology reason or some sort of a prenatal testosterone reason or some biological reason why people were inclined to choose one profession over another Google would have to be a horrible company if everything was even if everybody was 55 and they're only hiring 20% women that means they're monsters yeah they're suppressing 30% of the one they're just like you can't work here you can't get hired you're just as good as us but life is a man's club they would have to be monsters yeah and that's why I feel like some people will are shaming me like oh this is such a bad thing to tell little girls that are interested in technology when really I think this is a much

25:35better view of the world we're just you know yeah if you're interested in technology great you know aren't as many women like you but if you are that's amazing well the other side of story is oh no even if you are then your eyes face all these challenges and it'll just be an uphill battle against sexism and you'll never be seen as good as a man and you know that's not very encouraging to a lot of people well it's also not it's not necessarily accurate yeah I mean you're kind of like bending the truth to meet your narrative you know where instead we should maybe look at like what are the differences between men and women but that's the thing like people don't want to even accept there's a trend today to not accept biological differences between the sexes right which is just bananas like let's just not let's not accept the fact that water gets you wet like it's just weird it's

26:28weird when people ignore truth too fit their ideology and when you're looking at like just sheer numbers of people all you have is these numbers I mean you can have a bunch of reasons why but to say that the only reasons are implicit biases that the only reason is is some sort of discrimination against women that's the only reason why they're not 50/50 that's crazy that means we're monsters right I mean doesn't it mean we're monsters that means all men are monsters yeah when it's often the exact opposite you know we're very welcoming of women we really want every woman that we can get and you know they'll even twist these studies that they have where they'll do these large analyses of oh why did you leave Tech and you'll be broken down by men and women and he'll show oh 30% of women felt like there was unfair treatment and harassment and then one in 10 women felt like there was

27:26undue sexual attention to them and then the media will just report on that but they don't see that 40% of men compared to 30% of women felt like there was unfair treatment and harassment and then one in 12 men felt like there was you know unwanted sexual attention so you know they completely disregard the other side of the narrative that you know it's not really a gender issue that there's just unfair treatment in general you know mmm well I think men are gross I would want to work with them in an office I mean if I was a woman I would think they would be the worst place to work as an office with men especially if I was attractive and I was just around a bunch of goons or staring at my butt and just saying stupid men are gross I mean I think like is an issue with men and women working together because a lot of men are gross you know I mean it's not all of us obviously but I mean that

28:17just if I want to be honest about it I would say that man I think women probably have to deal with a lot of but is that the reason why only 20% of them are intact because that's not the case with all jobs we really work together and I think men are gross across the board they're not just gross in tech I mean they're probably gross like what are jobs where women are disproportionately represented like on the other side like is it like health so nursing veterinarians schools so a lot of things that deal with people or animals in this case yeah well I bet they deal with gross dudes there too but but that doesn't stop them from being hired at a disproportionately favorable number in percentage yeah it's um we got a look a being I think collectively here's one good thing there's not a good thing about google cuz I don't want to trash on Google and the good thing about

29:12tech companies in general I feel like we are in a way better position that tech companies are leaning way left I think we're in a way better position socially that tech companies are being extremely concerned about diversity because you just don't feel that and a lot of companies where they're about the hard line they're about the bottom line making money kicking ass taking names pushing the company ahead and they're there they're about you know infinite growth this is not what I see from tech companies what I see tech companies this is extreme caution when it comes to social issues and in this extreme desire to be thought of as being very diverse very fair very liberal I think that's good I really do I think it balances it out and I also think when I think at least about the smartest people in the world or the the most innovative people in the world today I almost always think

30:08about tack because I think about like well you look if you looked at the human organism you look at the human organism the human species as a whole and if you looked at like what does it do that's most impressive well what it does is his constant innovation or in this constant desire to make things more and more efficient faster more capable that that's a big part of that is tech so the people that are they like in a lot of ways at least the most technically creative those people are oftentimes very left-wing and very liberal so I like the fact that Google has this as a thought process I just wish that it was unbiased in its determinations when it comes to biases right that makes sense yes right I agree that you know being progressive isn't necessarily a bad thing right and you know I it is great that Google has this don't be evil motto and you know they've decided oh yeah we get a

31:07ton of ad revenue therefore we can do a ton of random stuff that's good for the world but you know I think unfortunately their political bias has created yeah they've they haven't forgotten there don't be evil motto it's just that don't be evil has turned into just don't disagree with us and what our ideology says they got sloppy yeah yeah well they're just a little off but they're going the right way you know and look it's very difficult to I mean how could you run a giant company like that and be just totally cool and above ground and have it all worked out I mean right it just doesn't happen you know and especially when you have all these internal influences like you're talking with these activists that work that have they have a vested interest in proving that there's racism there's a vested interest like when you go looking for you know if you have a hammer

32:05everything becomes an end right right if you're a person who's the type of person that's looking for racism everywhere man you're gonna find it in all these weird places like that don't even make sense like these hidden unconscious biases where you have to examine yourself don't just look at overt actions and see whether or not those actions are racism yep racist you have to actually examine all your thoughts and try to find racist thoughts and because they are in there whether you want to believe it or not like right oh jesus this is a damn ghost hunt you know this is a witch hunt mm-hmm it's like it's it's not like again even though I'm a white man I really feel like it's leaning better that we're on white men then you know if it was the other way if we were on minorities yeah I mean it would be very disturbing if an enormous company like Google was going

32:55oh let's just let's just be honest Porto Ricans are lazy you know I would whoa but if a company comes along like gluings like we know white you can't be racist towards white people like okay at least we can work here we could talk you can talk this is your saying something crazy racist I know you don't think it's crazy and racist because you're trying so hard to not be racist towards minorities that you're looking at what's a temporary majority I mean why people only a majority for another decade right you know I hope it evens out but I I feel like in defense of Google it's better to be leaning in correctly in that direction than to go the other way yeah I mean I think it's fine to have a leaning it's just you need to not be blind to the other side and I think that that's what's happening right now yeah where you know they're completely shutting down the conversation and

33:48they're really making certain employees feel completely alienated well yeah if it seems like you can't obviously you tried to talk about it and you were fired yeah you know I mean you were you were shamed for a little while and then it went public and then you were fired now why did did they do it did they send it publicly because they knew that people would have a negative reaction towards it that's what I think yeah I don't know who did it it was probably the people that were tweeting about it and saying that I was just a misogynist Nazi person and I don't not see yeah I used white supremacists he was used yeah they just keep escalating and at some point I don't really know it'll happen you know I mean white supremacist is now being used for a lot of things you're a white supremacist somehow Wow and at some point people will just see no these people aren't actually that and you know

34:41they've just created a bubble of words that they say and it just keeps getting more and more extreme and at some point it'll just shatter like an economic bubble but I but that's very dangerous because it opens a door to competition to Google like someone who's more rational and I think that's unfortunate for Google to like to be supporting these ridiculous ideas I got read this one article where this woman was calling you a misogynist and it was like she was being really brutal you know like though but it was it was a total false narrative because I was listening I was reading it and I was trying to like I'd read your memo so I read your memo and then I read this article about your memo I'm like this is like an angry person that has just decided that this is the focus of all the woes of the world is James and I'm gonna on James and the the misogynist of the

35:37world like James are the the reason why women can't excel in tack yeah I think part of it is that there's just an asymmetry so there's no punishment for writing this really angry letter that says how a misogynist I am yeah even though you know that's negative to me and anyone else that has similar viewpoints so there really needs to be some sort of retribution maybe for people that just so openly are so negative you could just get away with it yeah and then no one questions it it's not open for debate that's really part of the problem it's like people are so looking for things to be racist that when someone cries racism if you debate it at all like well how is he racist oh you're not going to like you become a Nazi for like discussing things even if you I mean even if you just objectively go over the facts and don't agree with their assessment you become a racist

36:33yeah and you know even if you don't say anything that's a vertically racist they'll say oh yeah that's just dog whistling and oh yeah you can tell what he meant when he said I could see it in his eyes yeah this is I this is not hyperbole what I'm gonna say but this is real this is how McCarthyism got started right this is how it got started everyone was looking for communists and every you couldn't even explore what communism was like you couldn't be confused like if I read a book today like I've got a book over there by Michael Mouse on North Korea if I read a book on North Korea like well what's what's going on North Korea people wouldn't be like Joe Rogan's in North Korean September he wants to move to North Korea he wants us all to be under a communist dictatorship wronged by Kim Jong moon yeah like you wouldn't say that right well back then you would back

37:27then during the McCarthy era like if you started reading like communist newsletters or you started going to a meeting like what is this about you could get shamed run out of Hollywood and it was a giant issue and people were ratting on people and they were doing it for the same reasons they did not want to be lumped in with this group so they would immediately turn people in they were turning in their neighbors like scary time where people were looking for the Communists everybody's looking for the dirty Red Scare you know they're gonna come and infiltrate our world it's very similar because it's it's a mindset this uh this mindset of not looking at things objectively but having everything boxed into these very convenient packages and this is one of them that diversity is of the utmost importance and that anything that does not challenge that idea or

38:19anything that does not support that idea rather is racist yeah and that was sort of what I was trying to say when I said demoralized diversity because you know we've just put it on such a pedestal and we've stopped looking at the costs and benefits of it and we've just started looking for villains you know all the racists and we just want to punish those villains and and label anyone that disagrees with any of the precepts of diversity as some sort of evil person what suggest a foolish approach especially the approach of making Asian people get higher scores that is so racist like yeah they study harder and do better what's the reason I don't know but whatever the reason is they do it I mean is it cultural probably is it biological I don't know what but whatever reason it is the the correct response that is not make Asians get higher scores that's insane yeah super racist you

39:16know I mean how racist is that that's crazy like why they I mean and they're a minority which is even weirder but it's somehow or another that one is like we let that one slide because we know they they don't complain and they kick ass and they go and study hard so for some reason we like let that one slip yeah a lot of this has some really know various history where the beginnings of just you know we used to just have tests and then that would be how you got into Harvard for example and whoever has the highest score we get in but then they saw oh there's too many Jewish people getting in and so they started adding all this oh let's look at your extracurriculars and let's make it more subjective on who we get in and that that way they could discriminate against Jewish people really so that's how it started yeah and this was like early nineteen hundred's Wow Wow well

40:13yeah there's another one there's a there's a disproportionate amount of European Jews that are Nobel Prize winners right why well they're smart like what what is what does that mean does that mean that we're we're prejudiced against Irish people no what does it mean well what did it whatever it means the end result is what's significant we're not stopping other people from taking these tests right if you get a disproportionate amount of European Jews there should be some sort of studying their husband but there should be some sort of studies as to what is it culturally like what is it what is the significance like what what has happened in the past that led this one group of people to be extraordinary successful extraordinarily successful in one area well that's what we should study we should try to keep Jewish people is insane and it's racist and I think Asian people are not

41:05complaining the same way other folks would you know what this is the same exact issue you know I mean it's essentially a reverse affirmative action sort of a situation very weird yeah it's unfortunate I mean especially since many of these are just first-generation immigrants they don't feel like they necessarily have the power to really stand up to some of this do you have any very many Asian friends you ever been around like really strict Asian households yeah and the culture is definitely different and there's a higher priority on school and more traditional values I had a good buddy of mine when I was young who was Korean and he was in medical school and his parents were brutal I mean they just wanted AIDS across the board no excuses you will study until your hands and you know there was just this sort of culture of of success in that household and of work hard work and hard work

42:10ethic and you know the the family's idea was like look we came over to America from South Korea so that you could kick ass period you're not gonna come over here and off and obviously he was a straight-a student and a just a wizard I mean this dude was just always awesome at everything and always working really hard but he was completely stressed out all the time every time you'd seen who's like hmm but just getting everything done but I mean it's the culture that he grew up in so to discriminate against that guy and say well you work too hard there jung-shik you can't you know you know your scores are a little bit too high you don't like it so we're gonna we're gonna need a higher threshold for you that's racist yeah and there's nothing that they can do it and you can't work harder and no no it's stupid it's like saying to athletes like certain athletes oh well

43:00you know you've been training too hard and so we're gonna need a faster 40-yard dash from you then a regular person to get on the team you would never say that you would say well this guy's obviously super dedicated and gifted this guy we want on our team and that's the one thing where I feel like we don't see a lot of this stuff you know we we like results when it comes to athletics when it comes to things like what's your number like what is the fastest you can run what is how high can you jump what's the pole vault that you do you know how far do you throw a discus all those things like very clear there's very clear numbers you can't you can't do that sort of same sort of approach that you're doing with academics or with industry you can't do that approach when it comes to athletics mm-hmm it's I mean I'm not since you know suggesting that the whole world is a sport but I mean

43:51when it comes to things like scores and keeping people out and letting people in and and trying to push you know to get more people of a certain color or ethnicity and like you're you know you're doing some slippery work man you know that it gets real weird when you start doing that yeah it's all about leveling the outcome some people and yet there's this scary Kurt Vonnegut short story where you know if you're really smart then you'll have to wear headphones that just beep all the time if you're beautiful you'll have to wear a mask in the future you're strong you'll have to have all these weights on you yeah you know it's sort of getting there it's the same sort of ideology and it's very well life is not fair right it is just not no one wants to hear that mm-hmm and this is really the core issue for all this stuff life is not fair there are people that are so much

44:48smarter than me that when I talk to them I feel like some sort of a monkey you know there's no getting around that there are people that are so much bigger than me well then I stand next to them I feel like a child you know there's just no getting around that that's just the way of the world and I think the key is I mean I guess with a company is to try to figure out how to manage all of these unfair aspects of being a biological entity in a civilization and I don't think Google's doing the right job by firing you for promoting science because that's what you're doing you know I had a friend who actually was comparing what you did to what's that term phrenology when you study the size of people's heads oh yeah not this one and I was like man you can't say that it's not what he's doing this somebody's doing cuz he's not saying that women can't do it he's not saying they wouldn't be

45:41better at it he's simply using science and citations to describe many of the issues that probably led to people choosing what they choose to do for a career right but you can't do that man look look at you you're here you're everywhere you're talking about this yeah I mean hopefully people will start seeing that at least how much the media was misrepresenting it yeah did you feel frustrated by all these articles I mean it's got to be weird to have people call you a white supremacist and a Nazi and again they also try to dig up any dirt that they can find on my history yeah and like stuff way back in high school that I might have done are you playing Tomb Raider Laura Croft he was a girl running I think Ted's do they find anything not really damn dude what if you had like some dark secret yeah that's the thing like I could have done some random thing that was bad

46:38course but I'm not wouldn't change the fact that what I wrote wasn't this sexist thing right right if you did something horrible in the past at least people could go okay maybe this guy's a artist and he leaned this stuff towards sexism even though there is some science behind it what he wrote was biased but I haven't seen a legit criticism of the actual work itself I really haven't yeah I've read a lot of stuff on You Man it's a little creepy I haven't seen anything that made sense everything that was criticizing you was being really dishonest yeah it was either just oh yeah this is obviously misogynist or they would attack claims I didn't make they were like oh yeah we've shown that women are better in school and are doing better in math yeah it's like okay I wasn't talking about that at all yeah it does not nothing to do with career paths you know um was really

47:29fascinating to me that the woman who's the CEO of YouTube responded and said it hurt her and she read your memo I'm like oh you tube you won you're the winner of winners when it comes to UT like you're the head attack like no one's saying you don't exist no one's saying you can't do it you obviously did it you're running the thing this is crazy why did it hurt science hurts like what hurts like look there are there's there's outliers right and there's always going to be there's it's it's interesting to find out why straight white males choose different career paths like why I mean there's so much variation there's so much so many variables there's so much difference there's people that are you know there's women that are MMA fighters like why why they doing that like what is it I don't know like there's there's women that are racecar drivers there's like there's

48:22outliers does that mean that we need a exact representation of males to females and MMA well that's insane that's not going to happen for whatever reason is that the city with the NASCAR it's not going to happen there's not some implicit bias it's keeping women from driving 250 miles an hour I don't know what it is but I don't think that's it I think there's probably some biological differences between men and women and they vary there's a spectrum yeah I'm for NASCAR it's likely you know risk aversion yeah and some stuff related to the same with MMA sure yeah I wouldn't want to do it you know and I know a lot of pretty girls that are doing it it's very weird so it's look there's people make choices you know some people choose to get their bodies tattooed some people choose to do all sorts of strange things you know it's I don't know why they do what they

49:20do but it's interesting to study them and it seems to me that all you were doing was talking about your own personal frustration with this very narrow-minded approach to diversity right and you know they never even say what exactly I could have done differently right not do this and you know there was actually a great piece in the Atlantic or something that was directed at sundari's like okay what Pacific parts of the document were against the code of conduct and what parts are free to discuss and what or not yeah because right now you can't discuss anything you know he just said oh yeah this document is invalid and so it means that no one can bring up any of these issues now and just they just have to walk on these really vague eggshells when really if they said no this specific part is unacceptable everything else is fine then at least there would be some wiggle room and people would

50:17know what the rules are but and we see this a lot with Google policy where they had these like no jerk policies and no jerk yeah don't be a jerk okay and where jerk is totally up to them to define yeah and so there could be these people that just you know harass you based on your white male privilege and you know oh you're a conservative therefore you're evil and that's not being a jerk but then you know questioning some of their viewpoints and like the narrative at Google that's being a jerk so white people are open game essentially like if someone is questioning you about something and you happen to be a white person they get away with far more yet they they try to invoke this a lot too in these programs where you're encouraged when you ask a question or something you say as a white male this is what I feel oh Jesus and that I just think that that's really

51:15specific as a white male with a fat dick and a large pornography collection on a hard drive this how I feel like what no I I think even mentioning pornography would be some sort of micro aggression and that's a major aggression sexual harassment yeah you were they cited that you promoted harmful gender stereotypes right so I had to go over it again like okay let's read this thing one more time like I don't I don't think you promote of any stereotypes you were talking with citations about science yeah and that's that's where this whole thing really confused the out of me what have you had many people like what is the the has there been like a 50/50 sort of reaction like fifty percent of the people were like me kind of confused about this and and then fifty percent of the people were just knee-jerk calling you some sort of a sexist or a Nazi yeah so Google they had an internal poll with

52:14about 800 people and about forty percent of people agreed and forty percent yeah fifty percent disagree to ten percent were neutral hmm yeah cowards and even the fifty percent probably a good percentage of them are just being it just doesn't it doesn't seem like if you're looking at it really objectively you could look they obviously want to result and that result is the maximum amount of diversity and I feel like if that's your result if that's what you're looking for shouldn't the result be let's just not discriminate just be open and just try to get the best people like wouldn't that be the best way to do it and then if we run into problems like you know we've tried do this best people thing but all we have is Asians so yeah so even suggesting that we should go to so meritocracy thing yeah that's a microaggression meritocracy is a microaggression yeah yeah so hmm there

53:11what's the argument for that likewise America TOC Rossio microaggression because it'll make some people feel unwelcome because they have to perform really it's basically just anything against the last ideology is in micro regression in some ways anything that could make anyone feel offended particularly people in certain groups man that's been liberal for a long time and I've never seen this bad before ya know what happened when it happened mmm-hmm we're gonna get so slippery it seems like within the last ten years right yeah I think the Internet is accelerated a lot of this where there can be these online mobs that enforce these social rules yeah but III think at least now some people can see it for what it is well I think what you're seeing is that there's a fear of retribution and that's one of the reasons why people are toeing the line is that they're worried about these like

54:12hyper aggressive people that are coming out against people that don't tow the line they're you know like you're saying shaming you and that that is a that's a disturbing aspect of human nature that I don't think she'd ever be reinforced and and and I think it's hard to call those things out individually because if collectively as a group if this group of you know diversity minded folks left-wing minded social justice warrior types are attacking you you feel very isolated and there's not a lot of support yeah you know and so most people just acquiesced they just back off they just give in they toe the line they they just alter their thoughts or they keep it to themselves yeah I mean I think the shaming does have its benefits sure it and when we were in small groups you know if someone stole something or was mean then actually shaming them is good but you talking about tribal groups in

55:07the past yeah but now that anyone across the world can just randomly shame you and attack you that that's not really what our brain was meant for right just you know even me seeing just random messages telling me that I'm some horrible person that you know that hurts me yeah even though I have gotten a lot of actual private messages saying yeah we support you you're not alone but I have to keep my mouth shut yeah I don't wanna get fired from Yahoo right like I I've met with so many people and they're like and of course you know don't tell anyone about you that's so weird now you obviously were not a public person right you were guy just was working what is your job at Google a software engineer I was working on the indexing and serving of search so to go from that which is like you describe yourself as an introvert right and to go from that to this massive exposure and

56:10to be the essentially the lightning rod for a real hot topic I mean this is one of the most hot-button topics you can get yeah men versus women in tech or men and women in tech women diversity white people black people racism Nazis hmm you're like yeah you're at the tip of the spear buddy yeah I'm really afraid that I'm actually just you know polarizing the issue even more and separating people and because you know it's really shown that there the stereotypes are real in some ways that there are some really extreme people on the left and really extreme people on the right maybe yeah and you know we really need to bridge it and say okay let's actually have a discussion let's talk about what's actually happening and nothing is really off the table in this discussion but that's not happening and Google itself from what I've heard they've just been doubling down on that

57:09diversity stuff and they haven't addressed any of the political discrimination Wow well I think you're right and I think that's that has to be your motivation for writing that thing I mean that was a very well thought out memo and I don't think someone who wanted to separate people would have written that the it seemed to me as an outsider with not no dog in the fight I was looking I was like oh this guy is probably like frustrated at what he sees these sort of social justice warrior tactics and these aren't logical and that this is not rational and like maybe my breakdown of this situation scientifically evolutionary psychology studies and all these different random factors that may have contributed to women choosing these careers maybe this will like help ease off maybe people aren't aware of this information yeah yeah I definitely have a bias where I thought you know we could

58:08just sit down and discuss it rationally that's all I ever wanted was sit down and discuss it with them yeah but I really underestimated that sort of group based emotions that were behind this and that's scary yeah well you know they're one of the things that was important about Charlotte I think charlottesville rather is that we got to see real Nazis right like hey man they're real it's not the guy right in the Google memo it's this with a swastika on his carry a tiki torch walking on a street with a gun in his pocket like you know ranting about the Jews and black people that's a real Nazi and that is what you were saying there's extreme people on the right and there's extreme people on the left and they don't understand that they are way more similar than they'd like to believe if you burns at all white people are racist if you believe that as an Impala is impossible for you

59:08to be a white person and not have some implicit bias and some racism and that it's impossible to be racist against white people because racism is about using power and influence and minorities do not have power and influence so they can be prejudiced but they cannot be racist well you're just as bad as a person with the tiki torch right you don't think you are I know you don't think you are but you are cuz you're just as ridiculous you're so off of what is real you're so off you know the idea that all black people responsible for the woes of society and that none of it has to do with the fact they were captured hundreds years ago brought over here slaves and that their lesser as human beings that's a disgusting ridiculous proposition and the people that think that way are fools right and that rightly so most people in the center look at those as fools hmm I

59:58look at the people to think that you can't be racist against white people as just as foolish you dumb fueling these yeah like with this dumb way of looking at things and pushing these ridiculous ideas that all white people are racist you're supposed to feel bad because you're white I didn't do anything I didn't do anything didn't ask to be born white didn't ask to be born male okay like you can't get mad at people for who they are yeah you you you should we should be having an open discussion about what is wrong like what's wrong like how what what what is going wrong why is this happening why are these negative things happening not why don't we have more women or why don't we have more Indian men why don't we I mean that's cop that's ridiculous it's ridiculous yeah it's crazy and I mean the two sides are just scapegoating so it is very similar and not taking any

60:55personal responsibility you know at least you know what Dorian Pearson would say is just you know fix yourself before you have to fix the ills of the world well I mean I think there's also an issue here is that I don't I'm gonna be very careful with my words but I feel like this is a game and I don't mean it's a game like there's not it's not a real issue this absolute it's absolutely a real issue but I think people play for points and I think that there's a real issue when people do things for social brownie points like Google saying that you were fired for promoting unfair gender stereotypes or dangerous or what was the word that they use harmful harmful harmful gender stereotypes that is a play that's a play for points a hundred percent okay where are the harmful gender stereotypes where are they promoted you tell me how if you don't tell me how I want a apology because you're

61:53lying you're lying because you want all those people on the left to calm down well we fired him oh you fired him a month after you knew he wrote that are you guys crazy did you go over the science before you fired him or no like what did you what did you do like where's the where's the harmful gender stereotypes you guys talked about yeah I mean it sucks too because you know you really need to address some of these things yes if you want to address the gender gap yeah and you know that was what you know page and my thing was all about was oh you know if women are more cooperative and they approach the workplace differently then maybe we can change the workplace to be more approachable but if they're not willing to acknowledge any of these differences then you know they won't do anything so it's really annoying well any interpersonal relationships with

62:41random people can be messy you know you get a group of 30 people together you force them to work in a building and it's gonna be messy where people are messy we're weird you know and if you have more of one group than another that group is gonna fail it alienated so if you have 80% men and 20% women they're going to feel alienated there's no way around it but the right way of approaching it is not to distort the facts especially when your thought of as being I mean Google is essentially a pillar of information I mean they're one of the most importantly hey man google it I mean that is the thing that people say they're one of the most important aspects of our society today having the ability to instant nobody says go Bing that nobody gives a about Bing right anybody's a joke but Google is hugely important so if you are essentially in charge of the distribution of more knowledge than

63:41arguably anything else on earth mmm maybe that's a big statement but I think I think you might be able to you might be able to actually say that and be in be pretty honest I think Google is responsible for distributing more information than any group on earth right that's a giant responsibility yeah anything that responsibility you cannot say that someone is promoting harmful gender stereotypes when they're absolutely not because I'm going over this thing I'm pulling pages out I'm like where's the harmful gender stereotypes other than the word neuroticism I just don't if you got fired for the word neuroticism well why is that word in all these evolutionary psychology texts like what where what's going on yeah I'm if you just google personality differences between men and women right thing then that'll be the first five results oh it's yeah and obviously these

64:36are just some of them I mean there's a bra again there's broad spectrum of human beings and both genders right who are you suing them yeah exploring all legal remedies that's James gonna have to be so crazy James yes have some falafel I am surprised that they never you know when they fired me had me try to sign something to say oh yeah you know just here's some non-disclosure agreement or something and then you off yeah but wow that was a big up on there it seems like it well I think they feel like they're completely I feel like the game again is like super clear like oh no we just we sunk a three-pointer in it's no problem like this is pretty this pretty straightforward one in the net dude we don't have to do yeah because he lost the point you know and I think maybe they underestimated how much negative press there would be about this because a lot of the initial stuff was

65:40all negative because it was coming out of that people that were tweeting about it mm-hm and then they saw that oh yeah the it's really not this one-sided and you know a lot of the things that may happen in a case is you know there's a lot discovery into what the internals of Google are happening I don't think they want that to happen because yeah we'll actually see that oh yes maybe there was this illegal discrimination happening now what is illegal about the discrimination that they're employing so I and I'm not a lawyer so I can't say but at least according to our own policies we said you know it's legal to use someone's protected status so their sex sergeant or sex or a race in employment critical situations like you know when they're getting hired when they're trying to be matched to a manager or to a team and when we're choosing who to promote and but it is

66:37happening in a lot of these places protected status yeah that's how they refer to it internally or is that like a common phrase I think that's a common phrase well-protected stat what's protected about like yeah you're not supposed to be able to discriminate on based on someone's age or mmm you know I mean it's mostly it was originally like oh yeah you shouldn't be discriminating against black people but obviously it I mean it should apply to everyone right so by doing that they violated their own rules right but they don't think about it that way because they're promoting diversity by doing that yeah it's kind of weird how they cited some of the same parts of the code of conduct where oh yes every employee should do their utmost of reducing bias and harassment and legal discrimination when really my document was about illuminating the bias against conservatives and the harassment

67:39against them and the legal discrimination that we're doing in multiple parts of our pipeline mmm there's no room for conservatives today so I mean are you conservative do you feel like you could hi I'm pretty much just libertarian mm-hmm but that's thought of as conservative because it's convenient right you just immediately pushed off yeah that right-wing angry white male group yeah everyone that's in the center or right of that yes all right all right yeah yes person you favor smaller government less intrusion yeah yeah I I'm not super libertarian like I obviously believe that there's places where the government should be but just a my yeah my like internal leaning are in philosophy is more like that yeah I think socially I lean more left like socially yeah in terms of like welfare and things on those lines and you know obviously this protected status is driving me crazy

68:39this this thing that Trump's doing with children that were born in this country or born in other countries and then brought over here as children and then they're talking about deporting them that drives me yeah the hard right version of that is despicable this and these people that I see online with why didn't they apply for citizenship oh who knows maybe because they're 13 ya know like will you out there applying for citizenship if you were 13 no I mean when you're 13 years old you're playing games and hanging out with your friends and then you find out you were born in Guatemala and you're like what like you have to go back to Guatemala what yeah it's crazy sex I lean way left when it comes to those kind of things gay rights and things like you know social programs for disenfranchised people and disenfranchised communities I would lean weight-lift like if I want my tax

69:27dollars to go to anything I wanted to go to making people's lives easier you know whether it's socialized medicine or whatever whatever we could do to make people like have an easier path to success and to not have them so burdened down by their environment their circumstances that I think is like our responsibility as human beings to try to I don't want to say even the playing field because there's never gonna be an even playing field like to give people opportunity that's it just give people an opportunity to do well yeah I have it so completely stacked against them so in that sense I'm not very conservative in that way like I'm not one of those pull yourself up by your bootstraps thing because that just that's so delusional like some people are just you know they're you know they're born with a terrible hand right and it would be nice if more of us were charitable in

70:17that regard you know and some people think that that charity should be a personal issue and that we should all just do it you know as part of our community and our society maybe that's a good argument and but maybe the argument is that our government should be a part of our community you know and that we should think about it that way instead of thinking of as this Overlord that decides and designates where our money should go that maybe we should have some more say in it it should be some sort of a more you know just just a more a more kind approach he's in that sense I lean pretty far left but I'm also pretty pragmatic you know and I also know that if you give people too much it's like sort of that winning lottery ticket thing or that you know that if you if you make things too easy for people they don't try hard right it's just a natural part of human nature

71:11so in that sense I'm conservative in a lot of ways yeah you definitely need some sort of safety net and to ensure that you know people can actually achieve the American dream will just be healthy my god I've been bleeding more and more towards universal basic income than anything I think universal basic income at a certain point I like it enough that you can just eat and survive and then maybe that would open up a lot more people to pursuing dreams to going after things I mean oh no I don't know I mean there's arguments for and against and I think it's debatable it'll be interesting to see you know Finland I think was proposing yes start this because we don't really know what will happen right and maybe people will you know start doing their hobbies and really find their passion maybe they'll just sit at home and watch TV and die yeah I it's really these are the

72:01problems that we as a society will have to overcome and you know of course these are just first world problems but that's that will be what the world is like there was another country today I've read about it on Google another country today that's considering universal basic income but it was it South Korea not really see if you can find it it's it's Scotland that what it was mmm I think there's many many people that are I mean Elon Musk has been promoting this lately Scotland will begin funding universal basic income experiments yeah Hawaii that's what it was Hawaii considers universal basic income as robot seen stealing jobs robots right on the street stealing jobs yeah it's Hawaii I think there is some real arguments to be made and I think Elon Musk who is of course a of this automated car revolution and he's he's creating these these trucks that they're gonna start using to haul

73:13things and they're going to be automating it's gonna remove a lot of jobs and they're starting to talk about universal basic income is you know a real solution to that I mean it's entirely possible it's it's certainly an argument you know it's really worth discussing yet it's something like that and hopefully the incentives will be better than some of the current welfare systems where you know you're not incentivized to get off of it yeah if you start working then you'll lose all of it while universal basic income can be made such that you start working and then you'll lose a little bit but it's never an actual incentive to not work mmm yes right it's not an incentive to not work but it's an it's it gives you food and shelter right so then you could go pursue a dream which I think would be wonderful I mean look if there's anything that our tax dollars

74:05should be going towards it's creating less losers right less people who feel disenfranchised by the system you know if you're if you're if you can pay X amount of tax dollars but live in an exponentially more safe and friendly and happy environment I think most people would be leaning towards that I think would be good yeah I mean and we'll see this we see this too and people that start companies where it's a huge risk to start a company most people fail and most entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley are men who are much more willing to take risks but if we do have some sort of strong safety net then it won't be so bad if you fail yeah and maybe that will help address some of the gender gap - that's interesting you know it's we want women to succeed in these positions so badly that like a woman CEO can become like a superstar like that lady from that blood testing company that turned

75:09out was that Thanos is that the name of it there were no sir that was a fascinating case this woman essentially was role-playing as a female Steve Jobs with a product that didn't really do what it was advertised to do and her company was valued at you know something like 30-something billion dollars and she was thought to be the richest self-made woman in the world and then almost overnight she's worth nothing because they found out it doesn't work and the company sort of fell apart there it is how Elizabeth Holmes house of cards game came tumbling town it is a fascinating story because this woman look at her there she dress the part yeah put on a black turtleneck I mean she dressed like Steve Jobs I remember she gave this speech once it's some woman's for you know woman's success group for something or another and she got up there and in this like unprepared rambling stupid speech and I

76:08was like how is this woman this super genius well it turns out she wasn't you know she dropped out of college at 19 and and created this company she started this like when she was in college mhm you know and she she basically just fit what people were looking for you know and and in a way to billions almost you know to look I'm crazy yeah a lot of people are very willing to see that whatever narrative they want yeah and and we see this all the time in the media to where they just fit the data however they want right which is why they wanted to call you misogynist yeah you know when I when I first read that I was like wow like this is this is a hot take by this lady who should wear the article I think she wrote one of them was let me Lady splain what's going off with women in tech did you read that one I saw I I remembered or somebody yeah there's a lot of it

77:06dude there's a lot of it so where are you at right now I mean you you obviously did they give you some sort of a pension or something like that they might as far you know i yeah i've been cheap throughout the years though so I saved up some cash yeah that's good still trying to figure out what's next have you got any job offers I've gotten random job offers from people but I haven't it's hard to tell how serious they are if you thought about writing a book yet yeah I'm not too much of a writer so I you wrote that memo pretty well yeah I mean I'm famous for what I wrote but I'm not it's you know if I you know have been studying how to write and stuff my entire life I wouldn't have been an engineer right right we did a great job with it though yeah I mean he's very thorough I like to think so I address a lot of things and it's unfortunate that there was that one part that is getting

78:03so much attention mmm when really it pointed out a lot of problems in our culture and a lot of suggestions for how to fix things and it seems like none of that is really gaining traction yeah no well at least it started the conversation right not at least for you cuz you got fired yeah I mean in some ways though it has made it even more dangerous to bring these up at least you know it's sort of empowered some people to at least understand some of the issues and hopefully these things will get brought up but right now it's sort of a toxic topic to bring up at Google at least do you think that it's toxic in in the short term but in the long term it'll inspire a more reasoned balanced conversation once the dust is settled hopefully and you know that's sort of one the hopes with the lawsuit is to show people that know Google can't just do this that there are limits to how

79:07much they can silence things yeah and you shouldn't be afraid to point out issues in the workplace right and you just said with the lawsuit like it's absolutely happening yeah I mean we've we filed a claim with the NLRB which is the National Labor Relations Board and so they usually work with unions and you know it's often employers that try to break up unions and fire people for joining unions and that's illegal and you know a lot of this what I was doing was a conservative effort between multiple people that you know trying to improve the workplace right and actually you know whistle blow on some of the illegal practices did you save emails where people were shaming people for being white or shaming people for having implicit bias because they were white or harassing people for yet a lot of people have been doing this like there's some underground efforts within

80:08Google to at least document some of this because you know while they may not be the majority they they're sort of a silent coalition within Google that's sort of upset about a lot of this oh that's interesting so there are some conservative people that work at Google yeah there's there's definitely more than zero more than zero is it like 20% like the amount that are represented like women representing the company so it may be that or even lower I think there's a lot of libertarians so that would be the main counter - right the extreme left but and then like sort of like what the main retribution is against people are the social conservatives and they feel completely alienated mmm so it's really unfortunate for them but I yeah there's at least hundreds of them now when you say like social conservatives like what what do you how do you classify that like what

81:15would I mean I guess people that believe in traditional values and homophobes say it so I think this is a lot of what's happening - on where people just assume okay because you believe say in traditional values and you think that your marriage is an important thing and you know I think that there is evidence that you know bringing up people in a two-parent household whether or not it's you know the same sex or different sex that is important for children and that there's a huge disparity and outcome of people with only one parent versus two so there is something to be said about marriage and you know having cultural norms that support that but so you know just completely alienating that side of the argument is really negative and that's hurt our society in general I think yeah well I think anytime you silence discussion based on your own personal ideas of what should and

82:26shouldn't be debated I think it becomes an issue I mean you can disagree with someone and it's a very complicated issue when it comes to whether or not to parents or more beneficial to a child than one because obviously there's a lot of reasons why people break up yeah you know you don't want to encourage people to be in toxic relationships and then show the child that you know this is a the framework for a loving relationship people that scream at each other and whatever horrible they do to each other that gets super complicated and very very personal right yeah it's it's definitely a touchy subject it's very personal one yeah so I I don't know personally how to address that but I think it's at least something that we should be cognizant of has anybody said when you know these white people are being shamed in this you know as anybody ever stepped up and say hey this is

83:18racist they might have but never in a public forum that I ever but publicly white people have been criticized right and you know they there's all these negative stereotypes of men and white people and you know those gender stereotypes are fine but mmm and you know the whole idea of it you know I'm only here because of my white male privilege therefore I'm somehow a worse programmer than all the other non-white non males is that implied or is it stated I it's implied that you know they get it easier in life and in the interview process and my evaluations yeah white and maybe Asian males so how's it implied though it can you give me an example and they'll say explicitly the gist yes these these groups of people are disadvantaged these are advantaged there's this privilege that they have and we've seen a time and again through all these evaluation processes that they're better

84:19evaluated and these are worse and yet they like they often just see whatever data that they want you know like that case before where they just pulled out the female side without seeing that all the male side was pretty much the same mm-hmm and it's crazy and bate you even see it in some of their internal studies where you know they were trying to show how grace deserves sexist google was and how worse women have it so they were looking at the coab review process where you know you can submit code to be reviewed and then someone has to approve it before it goes into the code base and they were looking at okay if woman's the author of it how many comments do they get on this review and you know if they got more comments then that would mean that their work is more scrutinized but if they got fewer comments then they were just ignored and so yeah there's no

85:13way out of it yeah yeah any result would show that women are being discriminated yeah just coming against somehow Wow man I'm glad I don't work where you worked are you happy to be free of that at all I miss the free food yeah I like the food a lot I had a friend was a big executive over there a woman mm-hmm by the way woman oh yeah she she enjoyed it but she said it was a mess like in she didn't you know obviously have the same issues that you had but she was like that the whole thing is just chaos oh yeah stupid going on over there she hated it there there's definitely and I went in a little bit in this in the document to where if you have a company that's to progressively run then it'll be sort of this you know everyone's equal and no hierarchy and all chaos and constantly changing while you know the opposite of a really conservative company where there's a lot

86:22of hierarchy decisions are made from the top wit which may not be you know very easy to change things so I Google is definitely more of the former where there is a lot of chaos and there's multiple teams working on the same thing and it's just this is how we have multiple products that end up doing the same thing and we have to deprecate some right like we have that's very knowledgeable like four different chat apps well Google is in the technology realm but they're not they don't have a lot of competition that's what's really interesting but then they do in certain ways right like they do in the phone way like they put out the pixel which I bought which is kind of a up phone oh okay yeah it doesn't feel like the microphone doesn't work all the time now I could you have to go to speakerphone and bring it back two microphones it's a bunch of bugs so a

87:15lot of quite a few issues with it then there's the Android operating system which a lot of people prefer so I think they're like pretty competitive in that realm but like when it comes to like search engine so they don't really have competition yeah that's where it gets real sneaky cuz a lot of power in that search search engine and then in Gmail what would it well you know what competition they have in Gmail yeah I I started using yahoo mail because people were you know really suspicious that Google would eventually read my email Wow do you really worry about that they would spy on your email there were some weird things happening to my phone so I had like one Corp attached to it yet what so my Corp so a Corp my work phone basically okay and it started like rebooting and after this whole controversy give an Android yeah then this had never happened before and it hasn't happened since

88:18and it like all these random apps started updating it was kind of scary but so do you think they started spying on you is your way to find out I don't know if there's a way to find out dude I would put my phone aside and bring it to like that top technologist and go listen we got to go over this cuz that'll be giant dude it's not they were spying on you is there anything in your contract that allows them to spy on you there's some random things where they yeah they can basically just buy out on you completely what yeah hey Cal so uh so all of your keystrokes are sort of logged and what at work or I'm the work computer okay yeah not necessarily your personal laptop or anything okay what about your phone yeah so I don't know exactly what they do but was it a corporate phone yeah you said my Google comm account attached to it okay but it was at your personal phone yeah I bought it but then

89:15oh so they reserve the right to like completely new kit and what yeah they reserve the right to nuke your personal phone now this corporate phone are you allowed to use it for like say if you go on a date or you want to buy a movie ticket or so you're allowed to use that phone yeah so that's a weird marriage of two worlds isn't it yet some people would own two phones because of that but you know I was I'm a cheap person again like I didn't want to have Google pay for extra stuff right and I mean I can understand why they want that because especially you know I was traveling to China for some of my work and you know supposedly if they see that you work for Google bill just like steal your laptop or your phone or they won't even explicitly steal it they like go into your room and then install some software on it and then just put it there and then the Chinese government

90:11will somehow get into Google's networks whoa so I mean they're rightfully paranoid about some things but sometimes it's yeah you don't want to give one entity too much power yeah my friend who worked for Google was very upset at this whole China thing because essentially she was saying they have to agree to censorship the Chinese censorship and that the only alternative is to let China steal all of what Google's doing and make a fake google do because that's what they were doing apparently yeah to make sure that they they didn't allow that and then to do that they had to have certain things like Tiananmen Square he couldn't search for that I was like a lot of weird that they would have to censor any you know dissent of the government and you know it's very slippery right I mean like yeah you're anti diverse or you're pro diversity but you're also you're

91:05supporting that like as a company that's a giant issue like allow China to censor its citizens I mean you're you're essentially promoting a dictatorship in that regard yeah it's sort of a lose-lose I I don't know what exactly they should do they just did it for business I think riot made a business choice and so scary choice too yeah well I mean they they were in China and they supported some of this stuff but then they eventually chose not to because they backed out of it yeah it's a recent that was I don't know before my time I could go in actually so they decided to get out so they're not involved with China anymore yeah it's blocked by the firewall China blocked Google yeah and all of Google services don't they have some weird thing you can get around that though but that's super illegal you get around that you're getting right really big trouble

91:59yeah although their official policy is that there is no firewall so I don't know I don't have any laws to actually imagine that a billion people they figured out how to do that to them yeah oh I think China is not the only case where this is happening there's other countries where Google also has a censor really yeah in the Middle East there's some company are some countries that do that yeah it gets really complicated yeah duck could imagine look I don't envy them I don't know and I don't envy any of the people that work there in management that are sort of responsible for putting out you know an infinite number of forest fires all around them all the time social-economic you know it's dealing with different cultures it's not doesn't seem like it'd be an easy gig yeah and I mean one of the words that they have now too is you know even though they have a

92:58large market share for search they see searches sort of a gateway to the world mm-hmm and they don't necessarily have a huge market share for that because you know Facebook and Twitter are also ways to get to the world's information and a lot of Facebook just it's just a walled garden where Google can't really get into that so some people just and you know on your phone you spend most of your time on Facebook or something and not necessarily just doing random google searches you know yeah I got off of that I don't really go on Facebook for that very reason it seems to me to be the biggest sucker of time that we have I just I feel like Twitter to me is like it's limited by 140 characters it seems like pretty straightforward I get links get interesting stories get sent to me that for my needs that's more it's more appealing and then Instagram is very appealing because I like images I look

93:56at pictures and sometimes people write cool captions and find out about interesting but Facebook is like wolf boy you're gonna lose a lot of time on that yeah that so this is a random tangent but I knew it so I worked on image search and they also see that even though there isn't a huge competitor for image search there's Instagram and Pinterest which are very similar things and you know we do our demographic research and we really look into why people are using these products and we see it that the majority of the users are women and you know they actually know why that is it's that women prefer you know art and aesthetics over men and on average right and that's exactly what I had in the document like I write well he openly acknowledged this when we were looking at the products because otherwise you know you're not gonna give these random ads to people

94:53that you know if you know that they're a man and you're not going to give them ads for women products you know right so Adsense does discriminate and stereotype people in some ways but but it's okay although now they're getting into trying to D by us machine learning so if they do see any things that the machine learning has learned these statistical anomalies are just trends in the data then they'll try to remove that why it seems it would be less effective it's less effective but they see it as a criminal justice yeah it's I don't know mess what a mess Bing you need to step up your game come on Ben bring back that Windows Phone nobody uses does that even real anymore I I think so I so I've been getting a lot of emails from you know pretty paranoid people and some of them are from hotmail oh yeah about Al yeah well comment what the AOL is real where are you right now like we're worried

96:15what do you do with your time yeah I read books respond to media requests you get a lot of them yeah I still get a lot and you know thankfully now some of them are more the long form which I allot I like a lot more than just the five minute TV thing yeah I wanted to give you as much time as he could to just yeah talk about this and especially after I heard you on ben shapiro cheryl show I'm like this guy is getting the shaft you're a reasonable person you're not a misogynist at all as far as I can tell you don't seem like a sexist you don't seem cruel you're not like the type of person I think we go out of their way to promote some sort of a quote-unquote harmful stereotypes ender stereotype I'm so weird especially like I personally am just very conscious about a lot of these gender stereotypes and you know I use the word day whenever the whenever the gender of someone is unknown or just

97:11mm-hmm and like I try to avoid using guys instead of just like you all or something yeah I say folks I try to say folks now because I used to say guys a lot you know I try to use two terms yeah but yeah for that very reason you know and you know if I get married I I would actually try to you know merge our last name somehow don't do that dude not not like the - not the - but just like create a new name yeah create a new name that would be the coolest if you can do it well you know the former mayor of Los Angeles did that really yeah his name was Tony Villar and his wife had this ethnic name and so they changed it and put it together and he came Villar hago la Villa or Argos Villa rago's I think that's what his name was but it made him seem like he was Mexican and so that's why he went with it and he kept it even if they got divorced yeah it's super like out crawl shits on him for it I

98:09didn't even know about it till he explained it to me I went what like this is fake name cuz I mean I just I I don't I wouldn't want my wife to you know just take my last name and lose theirs I really used to let my wife use her own name you can yeah Villaraigosa Villaraigosa vollara ghosts all right you could make a really cool last name yeah that's what he did I mean he was Villar Antonio Ramone Villar jr. and his wife was Ryoga saw it seven and they split up but he kept that name kept that ethnic name as long as you don't Google search it when you do you go hey what what's your dad's name bro yeah I and there are people that have stage names yeah that's sir okay yeah um Nikki Glaser had a very funny joke about that she's stand-up comedian you should a funny joke about um your old name you know and then like when a woman gets married and then like her all her name

99:15is when her son gets locked out of his bank account he needs to know mom what was your old dad like it turns away how to access his account with a password you know I mean yeah be nice if everybody just kept their own name yeah but then what you do to the kids that's yes just kill the kid to pick you choose your favorite parent yeah who's your favorite parent have a meritocracy now you can't do that right yeah and then if you have it so the first child is this second trial is that and it just gets too confusing and then what if you change your name and then you break up to go back to your old name it depends on how cool it is good it keeps you ingratiate you with the ethnic market markets maybe maybe yeah tricky I don't know marriage in itself is very weird it's some sort of strange legal contract with the state that involves relationships which is just so bizarre

100:14which is why 50% of them fall apart yeah that's and that's Chris Rock had a great joke about that that's the cowards that stay like how many how many of the people stay 50% left like how many people are miserable and they're still involved in that contract and it is 50% that fail it's a good argument you know yet is it the 50% of the initial ones get breaking up or just 50% of all marriages so like there is some that get married 10 times and did I get counted in that 50% yes because initial marriages like oh yeah if you get a union I do i do how many of those work 50% stay unionized it's not good yeah it's not good I'm happily married I tell people don't do it it's not worth it it's not worth it it's a ridiculous proposition and if you're whether you're male or female that makes a lot of money and the spouse doesn't then you run into this very weird

101:19situation you know yeah it's it's scary mm-hmm and you know potential of losing custody of kids yes yeah it gets real weird but it makes sense with children because you know like look creating a life is way more of a then divorce and marriage because you could you could easily get divorced people do it every day but creating life is like that's a significant responsibility I mean it's gigantic yeah you could get along with someone else I mean you could get divorced and go through all the turmoil and all the stress and then find a new person and maybe they'll be maybe be better maybe you marry that person to work out well maybe you learn from your first relationship but I think the commitment of raising a human being is way more of like a serious long-term responsibility so if you could do that like you can stay married you know work it out as long as the person's

102:18reasonable hmm get a reasonable person well do you know anyone that's getting an arranged marriage or has arranged marriage yeah no I don't because those actually beard they stay together more than that fifty percent really yeah so like like like rich parents get together with another rich family and they bring over the daughter and woo yeah sure not necessarily just rich I think it happens a lot in more traditional countries like India it still happens what is that a divorce Serge is over but the myth lives on that's a chick I wrote that I get that off the screen what does it say another article in Psychology Today it said it's down to about 25 or 75 percent survive Wow yeah one in four and and divorce but if you get married a second or third time the rates go way up yeah that makes sense mmm it's like a myth quote unquote myth from the 70s and 80s but there also

103:14isn't the amount of time if you got married in the last ten years to say you're gonna get divorced in twenty more years like I would like to know the actual hard data with the United States of America because culturally it gets weird when you look across the different countries but what about the United States of America what are the percentage of people who get married to wind up getting divorced let's find that out what do you say it is all across the world I think I don't know just unites all the just the United States I would think I'm sort of trusting that random you think it's about 25 percent get divorced divorced rate in u.s. drops to nearly 40-year low Wow look at this I represents a jump from 31.9 in 2014 and is the highest number ok 32.2 ok marriage rates in the other hand have increased there's thirty two point two marriages for every one thousand unmarried but what is the

104:06divorce rate sixteen point nine for a thousand married women fifteen-year-old what is a percentage 23 to me 50 percent chance okay typical marriages still have a fifty percent chance of lasting that's all I said it's the same goddamn number researchers have found that typical marriages still have about a 50 percent chance of lasting that's very I think this is still doctoral courses including the second and third marriages and beyond well marriage is marriage I mean if you have a second marriage it means you failed it means you got divorced yeah yeah but if go back to that Jamie please it says researchers have found that typical marriages still have a 50% chance of lasting that means you have a 50% chance of not lasting but that's just assuming you look at every single marriage but if you look at the first marriage then maybe you have a 70% chance of never getting a divorce

105:09oh and then but if you do get divorced so you like factor it in when people are in like the second third and fourth marry like those Elizabeth Taylor type folks yeah has like nine or ten marriages and so it might have reduced because people are just getting married later so they're choosing rather than just oh I got pregnant when I was young or I didn't have anything else to do so I got married look at that Hawaii had the lowest it's because it's awesome there may be live somewhere awesome they have universal basic income great weather great marriages what did you put up Jamie woody will you highlighted other things that they're saying factor and like cohabitating has become less stigmatized so not living together but not getting married yeah another thing that's happening okay people don't look to marriage to shore up an unstable relationship marriage rates have been

105:59declining for years so less people get married the percentages you also don't have to get married when you have a kid right now that's like right right brushing to do it right Brian it's less stigmatized mm-hmm yeah I mean imagine if that was your friendship thing okay man we're best friends or what let's go to court dude and do this I mean it's just weird I mean it really is but it does it makes sense for some people they like it people like rituals you know feels good to you know like say it and do it and make it real and jump over the broom like they didn't roots yeah I I think one interesting thing that I was looking into a little bit was the rates of divorce for homosexual marriages because that that's also sort interesting so one thing about heterosexual marriages is women and initiate the divorce in 70% of cases of course they do which is you know I wouldn't have necessarily

106:56predicted that early so don't think when we get pissed more like thank you don't you yeah guys but relationships that you've been in have women been pissed off at you more than you've been pissed off at them or the opposite definitely they get mad at me sexist um promoting harmful gender stereotypes right I I generally just don't get that angry so I think that's part of it but that's probably they get mad at you you don't even care and so like not to push on the one thing that sort of hurt me but the neuroticism trait is actually has been linked to unstable marriages women having more of that has been part of the explanation for why and so you see in lesbian couples they also have a higher rate of divorce than the gay couple yeah gay men so like part of it is women want to settle down much faster so they'll move in within like a month and then which you know obviously is you're

107:58too soon to know whether or not that's a long term yeah well especially if neither one of you are flexible and you know you know sort of a adapt to each other's needs and desires so I interrupted you though what is the percentage of gay men how often they get divorced I I don't know the exact numbers but i-it's lower than the lesbian one and because you know we only have the last few years or so of gay marriage yeah so we don't know the actual long-term rates mmm but it's very interesting because you know it's a world that I don't know much about right has um how did have you come through all this like do you feel damaged by this at all do you feel like like your name has been besmirched definitely you know I I just went to a party with my friends and you know some of them I were as much closer to and I had already talked to about this some I hadn't and you know you

108:59never know how they felt about it right so some it seemed like they you know I could tell that they were like oh yeah man hey what's up bro secret handshake but others were maybe a little averse to me so that may happen in the future but prejudices that they have going into the conversation yeah yeah and though I didn't know that you were a sexist have you gotten that if he hadn't people people like outright insulting you there was one person that was just on the roads just a few really yeah on the road where was this huh in Mountain View so you're driving a car hi I just got out of my car and they just yell or female it was a guy and what he said just after you it just you for what perfume yeah how do you know that that's why he said that uh-huh well yeah I mean I've never really been yelled at except by like crazy people on the street was this guy look like just normal nerd guy did he

110:11have his girlfriend with him yeah he's trying to impress her maybe all that kinda I want to smack him but I most of those support or at least like personal interactions have been in support of me hmm so there have been random people like oh are you tomorrow it's like yeah Wow so one guy with a girl yelled out you and he looked like a nerd she'll chill dump him don't worry about it buddy I'll come around I had a friend that was like that he was super male feminist and then eventually his his spouse went nutty on him and crazy and then all of her friends went nutty on him and now he's like he-man woman haters Club he went the other way oh yeah not totally but he's like what the man I'm like yeah you can't just rely on a gender to be cool yeah I have to rely on individual human beings and their personalities and their actions and their character I can't believe we have

111:13to actually go over this but no like all-in-all men aren't great all-in-all women aren't great you find unique people that are cool in the all sorts of groups yeah and you know once you start aligning yourself with one of these groups and you know if you ever go against any of their principles and you know they're constantly changing and getting more extreme yes then you'll eventually get ostracized and yeah that's what happened that that's a big issue with the left sure you know left eats itself but I don't think that's as much of an issue with the conservative right you know with your rational conservatives not like racists and like full right wing nuts but you know I think what people just want they want harmony I think overall right now they want to succeed and they want harmony which sometimes are mutually exclusive yeah you know a lot of people just don't

112:09acknowledge that most people are normal and they're just yeah want to live their life and you know even though they might have voted for Trump or something they're not some evil person Briah they're not the KKK which i i've met a lot of people in Silicon Valley that basically equate voting for Trump and being in the KKK yeah yeah that's harmful that's really splitting groups and you know if you're going to build products that are for the entire world then you really need to understand other people you know a lot of the world is actually more conservative than I mean Europe may be more liberal than the US in some ways but a lot of Asia and Africa and South America is more conservative than we are so we need to at least understand what's happening and what the world view is yeah the idea that everyone who voted for Trump is in the KKK so crazy but it's convenient to demonize the other

113:12yeah we would love to do that we'd love to look at groups and just block ourselves off and this is us and we're on the right and these people on the other side they're they're incorrect and it's a real normal common tendency that human beings have that we should be very very aware of but we're not you know it's we have these convenient blinders that we put on whenever we're engaging any sort of ideological discussions where our belief systems might be challenged we dig our heels in and like this is in I think you see a lot of that with the left with this whole like you cannot be progressive enough like it's like they're getting whackier and whackier with it it's really weird ya know concept of you know okay I'm an ally with you on this thing even though we may disagree on this other subject and that's just completely impossible in their head yeah I don't think there's

114:07enough real discussions going on in this world to I think people are a lot of times following these predetermined patterns of behavior they think they're expected to follow as a progressive or as a conservative and then they just go with it and then when they do engage with someone who has a differing opinion then it becomes a in quotes game again right it's trying to win rather than trying to understand like what this person sees and what they think and what what is your philosophy like how are you approaching this and trying to be like really open-minded about it ya know like I see this even in myself when I'm talking to someone and you know maybe there are feminists or like extreme in some way and like I'll discuss them and I'll immediately just stereotype them as someone that's even more extreme and I'll read into their words of you said that that means that you mean

114:59this and even though you know maybe it's important to at least show what the extreme outcome would be and therefore we can't just take this on principle but you know everyone does it and yeah it's really hard to not do it it is hard to not do it it's one of the thing reasons why I think like long-form conversations are so important and how often do you ever sit down like this with someone and talk for a couple hours with just you and the person talking not looking at your phone not checking the TV not no no no we very rarely do this I think this is one of the only ways we could really work out ideas especially when you're talking to someone that might have a differing opinion but they also might be intelligent and you might be able to like sort it out like let me parse out what your thoughts are and see where I differ and how you got to where you got

115:52maybe I'll have a better understanding of your philosophy mm-hmm and but there's a lot of people they don't even have a philosophy they just it sounds good so they just go with this predetermined pattern that's easy to follow you know as a left-wing progressive I feel this I mean I've heard people say that before like as a Democrat I've always felt like oh we as a demographic in person yeah that's no it's not it's um ideas are hard you know thoughts on life and how we cohabitate and how we move through this existence together it's it's very difficult to work out there's so many variables so many styles of human you know there's just so many different things that we have to work through together and to try to to try to do that based on patterns that other people have established and that you cannot break and then you know have these like I mean that's one of the

116:48reasons why it's so ruthless to say that all white people have some implicit biases that they may or not may not even be aware of and and this you know unintended racism flavors all conversations like you're just poisoning this conversation you're poisoning this conversation within this fishing line it's all tangled up and now we're gonna have to figure out what is real and pull this apart and get it back on the spool you know yeah there's no solution for some of those to where you know you just say there's some boogeyman type thing that's yeah controlling all this and there's some conspiracy that we can't really see and we can't point out specific examples but it's ever-present and I I think yeah a lot of the treating people as individuals that has become more of a libertarian thing yeah and so it's hard to at least for me to understand some of this more collective

117:49thinking and social conformity which I've never been a fan of but do you think it was a good idea to write that memo like if you had to go back again if you were in front of your computer and you ready press send would you uh maybe I would wait for my year-end bonus man I I mean I think I would have pushed harder even harder on the diversity programs although like I met with them personally and I kept pinging them and I sent so many emails them just trying to have a discussion about this and I went through multiple other programs and sent this document this exact document to them so it's really unclear of what I could have done differently but I for example I didn't know so much about the underground conservative network before all this and Google you mean yeah and even within Silicon Valley like there's attempts to sort of connect them between companies

118:50but there's like so much verification that you need to go through to be able to join one of these you have to have a pseudonym uh you don't need to be totally anonymous but you know you you don't want because there's active attempts to try to infiltrate these groups really yeah I this happens a lot where they'll try to join a group act as if they're one of them and then just you know record what's happening and then expose them and you know you can take anything out of context and it would be shown as you know racism I'm sure well I mean think of what we've said well not you but me joking around in this conversation you could clearly take something I've said out of context and make a look at my monster but if you're in an email and you're complaining about some sort of diversity program yeah like what they often do is they will find someone that they disagree with and then they'll

119:48scour through their entire history at Google and all the emails that they've sent and try to look for some way to blacklist them or show that this person is evil therefore they should be fired it's horrible and supposedly this is happening in other companies too and they even have like these automated scripts to try to find these negative things on people that they don't like Wow so a little little psychological covert warfare yeah and that's also going to contribute to people toeing the line right you want to keep their job like kooky you just said maybe you would have waited until you got your bonus and then people I mean and you are a single guy right yes the family not that definitely helped I don't have as many responsibilities imagine if you did you know you probably wouldn't have said anything you would thought about it and go you know what I have to worry about

120:40my family and taking care of my bills and oh so weird man yeah I mean the worst part is these people think that they're doing the right thing right like centering people and finding these people is the right thing because any of those people are wrong yet so that's other thing they think okay I have everyone sees the world the same therefore anyone that disagrees with me is either misinformed or misogynist bigoted right otherwise how could I have possibly said those things yeah when really you know I people with different political ideologies see the world differently and they have different biases and you know none of them are totally correct but we need to be able to discuss things to show you know more to view the world without a doubt and the the fact that that is even up for debate is it's very strange I mean that's a ideological echo chamber and

121:43that seems like for whatever reason that seems like we're tech is and that's where technology company seemed to lean towards this very left playing ideological echo chamber yeah and I mean I saw it a lot too on the comments of the document where I said oh yeah these are just biases and no they were like no the right is indoctrinated they're just KKK and they're anti education they're anti poor people they're anti yeah it's like no all of them yeah and you know at least the way I see it and not being you know total conservative I can't necessarily say but it seems like they don't necessarily hate poor people or anything they just think that these certain incentive structures are what's best for our society and you know it's not best to promote or they think that some things will lead to laziness or something right and that's not saying oh yeah these people are just horrible

122:44people they actually want to help everyone and they think that these social norms and government programs may be hurting people yeah there certainly are some people that are right-wing that think like that and there's some people that are right-wing that are really racist yeah and they exist too and there's some people that are left-wing that are really racist and they're really racist towards white people I mean that's that's there's white people that are racist towards white people I mean I've read so many tweets from people that you know like I follow a bunch of anti social justice warrior accounts and they'll find people that tweet like really horrible about white people that are white yeah that's like I get what you're doing just try to get those brownie points try and try and super hard to get uh you know people of color to love you and you know as an ally it's

123:33just very strange time I think a lot of it has to do with this newfound ability to communicate that just really did not exist in the past mmm if you wanted to get controversial ideas past you know two massive groups people in the past you had to write a book or you had to get an article published you had to be some sort of a major media distribution center had to take your work and put it out there for the people right now that's not the case so now you get a lot of like really fragile or really poorly thought-out ideas and as long as you can hit the nerve of enough retards you can get those things out there and then they start promoting I mean that's where the Flat Earth movement it's coming from woody woody what is that other than that I mean that's exactly what it is it's enough people that judges just don't have a sense of the importance of critical thinking skills or are not used to

124:28objectively assessing ideas and then they they coalesce in these groups that are like-minded and you can get that with racism you can get that with sexism you can get that with pretty much anything right get these like-minded groups they get together and they have confirmation bias and they get an ideological echo chamber and they start reinforcing each other you know yeah and definitely I mean it affects who you follow I should we just assume oh yeah everyone thinks like this yeah therefore it must be right yeah and I mean it's really a shame though that this is happening even in you know the pursuit of knowledge in academia where so many people have a certain worldview like the social sciences have 90% of people lean left yeah and that's that can create its own confirmation biases and especially when you know it's it's definitely bad like in tech where 20% of people are women

125:24and they can feel alienated but at least you know overt signs of sexism are seen as bad right but overt signs of discriminating against people based on their political orientation is seen as okay hmm and people do it and so yeah there's a big asymmetry there where you you actually feel it's justified to maybe wouldn't be as big of an issue if we had a reasonable Republican president maybe if we had someone who was really kind and rational like maybe a rip Mitt Romney type who seemed like far more reasonable and you know it's the this sort of you know I mean we have a bunch of issues obviously as a country now with this guy's president mmm and I think that we're also dealing with a really an infant stage of information distribution like the ability for anyone to mass distribute anything yes so like anyone can create a you know a YouTube video and if it strikes a chord it can

126:35hit a million people like that this is the time like that before where you know I mean and the incentive structures are all out of whack where it's better to be outrageous than it is to be honest and yeah that that's causing a lot of our headlines to just be you know he's just a sexist bigot and there's no room for nuance but also don't you think that it's a there's a lack of time that people have right like this like I told you how much time I spent going over your stuff and and and after a while I was like what the am I feeling I think a working tech but most people don't have that kind of time nor do they have it sort of obsessive mindset they look at the surface of something oh this guy wrote a sexist memo about women in tech cam it's probably misogynist and they just marched towards their meeting and we have to avoid the kind of thinking that led to someone thinking

127:30that it's okay to write the Google memo and then everyone I think as the dust settles we we will get more and more truth out of people and I think there's a general trend with information to have information be easier and easier to distribute that's one of the most important things about technology right there instantaneous access to information mm-hmm and right now that information is not entirely verifiable like some of it is and some of it's not and that's one of the more disturbing things that people reap printing your memo without citations I was like hey like you you left out a big part of what this is like you did is really wrong those citations maybe people won't go into them maybe they won't read the studies maybe they won't me it takes a long time if you really want to get involved in that but there will be a better version of that in the future okay I think they will I

128:34think I think that's where that you mean obviously I don't know but I think that's where the trend is I think the trend is leaning towards more and more honest interpretation of facts and ideas and then you know we'll be left with some some things that we have to look at that we can't just write off to sociology or write off to culture or write off to biases or sexism or racism we're gonna have to look at things for what they really are and maybe we'll have a better understanding of why we behave the way we do why we have the problems that we have yeah and part of the issue though is if someone controls access to information and they want a certain area to be told then you know it'll really color what people see and that's what's scary and you know we see this a lot in YouTube now yeah where there D monetizing anyone that they see is right-wing and you know even

129:31censoring and removing videos it's really scary but it is yeah it's fascinating I mean it's it's it's it's quite fascinating to watch it all play out and and to have them do it like right in front of everybody's face nobody goes what are you doing like you are you're changing narratives you're altering information and they feel like they are right right they're doing the right thing they're promoting diversity they're promoting liberal values and progressive ideas and they think they're doing the right thing I don't necessarily think they're right though yeah it's there's a lot of blowback though I mean this is not free it's not a free ride for Google right now what they've done to you I mean I'm sure there's been I mean I'm sure they're doubling down because they don't want to admit they're up if they may admit they're up everybody across the board

130:23losses that year-end bonus it becomes a real issue right everybody gets fired but if they you know if you look at it long term over the long run maybe they did they have definitely taken a hit and if someone forces them to sit down I would love to sit down with the guy who said that you promote harmful gender stereotypes and go let's go over this though let's go over this thing step by step you tell me what's wrong yeah and just pick them apart that's how I've always wanted but he'll fall apart a hundred percent I just say a bunch of stupid social justice warrior and if you just keep them in a room for three hours of the microphone it's gonna look like a idiot there's just no way around it you know there's no way around it if you're just active if you actually going off of what you wrote to somehow or another look I think it's very not just dangerous to say it

131:13promotes harmful gender stereotypes it's disingenuous mm-hmm and why the reason why it's dangerous is because I could just read what that guy said and I would think that you're a creep and that's dangerous to you yeah it's it's it's dangerous towards the the marketplace of free ideas the marketplace of ideas it's extremely important and I would think that if anybody would know that it would be the people that are involved in tech you would think so yeah I mean they're just so wrapped up just so wrapped up and the progressive mindset it's weird man yeah I mean it's so related to all this micro aggression you know speeches violence and you know all ideas are harmful and and of course you know some ideas are harmful but yeah it's only through openly discussing them can you actually dispel some of these things by making them you know forbidden knowledge that's only going to attract certain

132:09people and you know we even see this now worth some of the YouTube videos that are in this purgatory type state where you know you can't really get to them but if you know the URL you can still find yeah yeah people are getting lists of those and actually viewing them yeah and oh this is what YouTube doesn't want us to see maybe there's some truth to it well I don't they wanted to see a yeah if you win a certain amount of money are you willing to buy a gold-plated Ferrari and drive around with a fur coat because I think they'd be no big ass crazy sunglasses oh yeah you can win I don't really know and I mean I'm trying to I mean what I would ideally wanted somehow changing their policies but I don't really know how I as an individual can you compel Google to do something like that but I think at least some of the stuff like the blacklisting where they have these

133:13people that you know compile these spreadsheets of names of people that are conservative Brian or even libertarian and oh we're not gonna work with them we're gonna sabotage their work and we're gonna try to get them fired when they are looking for another job we're gonna share this list so they can't get hired from any of the other major companies like that needs to that's real yeah that's really you know that that's real have you seen this list yeah so there have been multiple people that have admitted to having a blacklist Wow therrien not even conservative not even right-wing but smaller government libertarian yeah just because it's generally free thinking people yeah not telling the party line and those people get blacklisted really yeah there's an actual list somewhere I think have you seen an actual list I haven't seen an individual list I think there's multiple lists spread

134:12out but people even like high up managers have admitted to having us blacklist Wow and you know we've brought this up to the highest people at Google and they just completely dismissed it like we're not going to deal with it so do you feel like they feel that they have some sort of a social responsibility to push progressive values because they're in this massive position of influence and they feel like that's the right way to think so they're going to go full steam ahead yeah and don't be evil don't be conservative pretty much yeah mmm the libertarian man boy so tough sell to say that Gary Johnson's evil you know I don't know but yeah it's it's really hard to understand that mindset yeah well I get it though because I think it's a lot of the same things along the same lines that you were talking about when you were saying that you didn't you know like maybe you would have waited till

135:14you got your year-end bonus and you're a guy who is also frugal you've saved your money and you don't have a family support and you're okay you know you got fired and you're still okay you know whereas some people would be right now maybe they overextended maybe they have that gold Ferrari in the fur coat and like yeah I mean if I had a mortgage or something no it's scary that's where it gets scary it's a lot of people's decision-making I mean that's that goes back to you know engineering civilization and the early days of Rome I think there was writings about that about getting people to commit to families and it's easier to control them when they have other ones and and you know and things that they enjoy and positions of power and status that it's easier to get those people to give in to your needs and desires I mean it makes sense right I mean it's just engineering

136:06a civilization it's one of the like getting people to perform and behave the way that you would like them to is a critical component of engineering any sort of a civilization and Google is essentially a civilization if you look at it that way I mean internally there's a is a community it's a structure and they're engineering that structure to be very much a like-minded ideological echo-chamber yeah I think it's really going to bite them in the back at some point like they're making the easy decision of not really facing the you know the truth as I see it mhm and you know if you turn your back on that for too long it's really going to have negative consequences later yeah well I I feel like one thing it's super important to point out I think we kind of already did but women do experience a on a sexism and again it's because like I said men are gross you know this is a

137:05lot of gross men and men working in close proximity with women not I mean men working with other men they're gonna find things they don't like about those men yeah you know I mean people have interpersonal relationships or gross and messy and if men work with women and they feel like they can dominate them with aggression or with some sort of weird tactics that play on the agreeableness females these need to have you know it's it's a problem and I think by not looking out of that by not being honest about that we do just as much of a disservice yeah although I mean I would say that you know there are men that are just as agreeable and just as much of a pushover say yes sure and you know they also get shunned and yeah such aside and sometimes it's even worse for men that fit that stereotype or don't fit the typical male stereotype because you know there's negative

138:01consequences on both sides for not being masculine if you're a man or not being feminine enough if you're a woman yeah like you're not allowed to just be yourself right you have to like fit you you're better off if you fit into some sort of a classic narrative yeah so where do you go from here besides suing the Google Google just give him some money just shut him up do you want to go through with a lawsuit like what if they came to you with a settlement would you just take it and shut your mouth I really want somehow for them to address it but I I don't know how to do that well even if they if you lose in court will they address it they'll probably say you know although we support the court we disagree with the rulings and we still support gender equality and yeah I mean I think part of it is that there's currently an asymmetry so maybe Google is acting in

138:53their best interest to act the way that they are because they think that you know there's all these activists that are trying to attack Google that only if they don't fit this certain party are there a lot of activists that are attacking Google in that regard yeah and you know we even see that there's now a potential class action lawsuit against Google about what gender pay disparity and so like they just are looking for anything and if we say that you know if there's only incentive coming from one side then they're only gonna push farther and farther to that side and this gender pay disparity is just involving similar jobs yet so they claim that it's the same job although at least when Google was doing their own internal analysis which they've been doing for years they show that there's no disparity once you control for a perform for performance and so it it's really unclear and but

139:56you control for performance performance tends to favor males maybe if if that's what they're showing that there is some sort of gender disparity if you just look at aggregate look at this one in 100 million chance alleged gender pay gap at Google is random says class action lawyer oh Jesus class action lawyer says that in the articles written by a check fake news fake news get me I think one thing is I don't think that they really have Google's internal data so there's no way for them to say whether or not it's based on the performance look what they're saying here you know notice is seeking women currently or formerly employed at Google for possible inclusion in a planned class action lawsuit first of all people hear that and they're like we're gonna get paid right I mean that's just you're playing on human instincts when you seek out people that may have been employed

140:57for a possible inclusion in a class-action lawsuit that's not saying that they weren't wronged cuz I don't obviously I don't know several dozen came forward in a matter of weeks that's a pretty high level of dissatisfaction says James Feinberg no it's not no these thousands of people have worked there and a couple dozen came forward that's not a high level of satisfaction how many people have been employed at Google that are no longer employed it's probably tens of thousands right yeah there's 70,000 people working there so for this guy to say that's a pretty high level of dissatisfaction when several dozen let's say three dozen let's go crazy let's say it's forty people let's get nuts that's nobody man yeah hey Oh seventy women it's our biggest bird fum but wait a minute heard from that doesn't that you mean they might not even make sense that might not be a case

141:52for four people for that's not a lot you the classics I mean that's just this is this is a ambulance chaser chaser right I mean I'm not saying he's wrong I'm not saying there's not sexual discrimination but I'm saying like this is articles or sneaky as for people you got four people and I don't know how an individual would know whether or not they're paid differently just based on their sex right because there's so many variables to play so you really have to look at the system as a whole because I mean there definitely some men that are paid less than the women too when you can perform examples like that the problem is when you control for performance if it turns out that men are being paid more then you have to figure out some sort of a way to justify that or you know like if men are being paid more when you control for performance what is it that's causing

142:50the men to be paid more why they performing better like is it the environment they feel more comfortable is it lack of suppression that the women experience like yeah so I guess when you look at the nationwide gender gap in pay we're you know even Obama has said 77 cents per dollar is too little yeah but he says silly person like I should have done that like he knows like when Obama said that he knows that that's not being honest because you're talking about completely different jobs different choices for people don't know okay let's just break that down real quick this this thing because people repeated ad nauseam and it's just not true the gender pay gap of 77 cents to a dollar that a male makes is based on the choices that people make as far as like what they do for a living it's based on the amount of hours that they work men tend to work longer hours

143:40and especially if they get pregnant all those things are factored in that's where you get 77 cents on average for the dollar that the male makes what it implies and this is where it's disingenuous is it two people working side-by-side doing the same job and the males getting 77 more a dollar for the woman 77 cents that's not what the gender pay gap actually means and if Google is actually if someone is saying if there's a lawsuit that's saying that a man and a woman are doing the exact same job with the exact same performance and the woman is only getting 77 cents on the dollar then you got a real issue right yeah and so it's often or that you know there's different hours worked and it doesn't even have to be that you know they work twice as many or 30% more it's sometimes if you just work you know forty four hours a week versus thirty four hours or something mm-hmm then

144:39there's a huge pay disparity yeah and that's irrespective of what gender you have it's just especially at Google there was so much time that was just you know replying to email and doing some base level stuff going to meetings and then you only had a little bit that was actually creative and providing value to the company really yeah so it's really an efficient that regard right and you know it's similar in a lot of companies too so and that creates some of this you know nonlinear benefits of working just a little more per week and you know we see this a lot in Silicon Valley where there's a lot of people right out of college and they're willing to work a ton of time especially you know you can essentially live at Google so there's a lot oh yeah there's free food everywhere there's showers there's a gym their beds there's nap pods and ant pods yeah Wow

145:38are they closed off so you can can't hear anything out there but can you actually sleep and they're good I can't really sleep in there just because I'm too tall but most people yeah you can sleep in there cuz something they like closed it off and you could just lay there is there a term for being being discriminated discriminatory towards tall people yeah tallest tightest yeah I just like there's ablest right there's a few mock people that aren't able to do things you become an ableist there's definitely a movement now of looking into oh maybe tall people have some advantages because you know we see that a lot of CEOs are over 6 feet tall and it's not clear why exactly that is and you you really have to control for every aspect because there is you know correlations between height and intelligence but it's likely not just that you know but what I'm saying is

146:31like they're discriminating against you with the pods ok I'll tell you like 6-4 6-3 yeah coke you up with a 6-4 pod man we can stretch your legs out and get a good nap maybe you'll be more productive at a job you don't work out anymore yeah I just never really felt like complaining too much good for you except for that one thing so are you trying to seek other employment or are you yeah I'm still looking at you know what exactly I want to do because I never was you know coding wasn't the thing that I was doing my entire life is that what your education is in no so I was doing you know physics and biology random math stuff and I just picked up some of algorithm books and they seemed really cool so I started doing some coding competitions and I did well enough that Google just like randomly contacted me Wow before they figured out yeah this is all online and I had a user name so maybe

147:40they didn't know I don't know that's interesting so they contacted you and offered you employment based on your coding skills yeah that's weird oh that's cool so so now you're just trying to figure out what the next how old are you 28 so you tell you very young man yeah you gotta figure out what the past gonna be huh yeah you're leaning in one way or another uh something that uses my brain but yeah he'll be nice something outside of tech maybe or what maybe all right I I still feel like you know Tech in general is for the future and will have huge impact on the world so something related to tech but maybe not coding all day but I really don't know because you know most of the major Silicon Valley jobs probably have blacklisted me really yeah Wow it's unfortunate man because like I said I've read your memo I don't think you did anything wrong I think you did

148:41you took a bold choice and a bold stance to talk about something that's essentially taboo but you did it with science you know and you did it I think you did in a very reasonable manner you know and I'm shocked that the reaction has been as extreme as it's been but I'm not shocked at the same time I mean it's it's predictable almost and the people calling you a misogynist it was very weird and CEO of YouTube saying it hurt her life yeah I mean I thought that you know the first the intro which talked about all these political biases and how our culture shames people that gave a different view I thought that might have shown that you know maybe we shouldn't be doing that but you know predicted exactly what happened to me I think very few people actually read it Bravo yeah yeah especially like globally very few people it's very clear baby I think you know the responses to it are

149:42very clickbait tea and people go with whatever the titles of the articles that are criticizing you and just just accepted as gospel you know yeah I've gotten a lot of responses that were just oh yeah I saw on Facebook you know some sexist memo and you know it was only after they saw that so many times and they decided to read it that they finally were like oh no it's not that bad yeah I urge people if you have the time just please just read it just go over it and try to figure out where it all went wrong I'm glad you did it though man I mean it's a really interesting point of discussion and I hope this lawsuit works out well for you and I hope Google just comes their senses and I don't think that's gonna happen you know what do you predict what you think is gonna happen I I don't know I think that you know people now are aware of this a lot more and there may be platforms that emerge

150:41that are sort of you know all tech is what they're calling it just alternative technology that's more open to just free speech but unfortunately they're currently just being labeled as white supremacist sites and you know it's hopefully people can see through that I don't know if they have the time to even look that's the thing it's just like they're they're taking everyone's word for everything yeah it's very odd time but there's enough people discussing it you know and I think you're the response to your memo has been it's been very enlightening for some people from from a sort of a psychological standpoint like what what are the reactions that people have and why do they have these reactions and what is it was it say about us as human beings that this is such a taboo subject that we can't even address the the very real differences that we have as unique individuals you know hmm

151:42yeah I'm at least happy that it didn't happen during college season because then there'd be like protests and people burning my effigy years I think so I think it would have been a much more negative if it was during the school year Wow and they would demand that their school you know double down on diversity and just all these things but yeah a lot of virtue signaling going on yeah I it's at least it's nice to see that some of the colleges have been standing up for an art against it and you know saying no you can't really just tell us what to do and we believe in you know knowledge and actually seeking the truth and not just criticizing people based their political ideologies yeah it's a long slog my friend there's a lot of walking and talking going on but uh I think we'll be fine I hope I hope we'll be fine if we don't go to war with North Korea or get smashed by a hundred

152:46hurricanes in a row but I think we should just what's matter I've got a tweet that you're badass in chess Oh a chess master yeah I've played a lot of chess yeah no that was my life for a few years he played chess in your head yeah wow that's fascinating I used to play chess in my head against like four different people so like blindfolded whoa dude I knew this kid who's a chess master and a pool hall that I used to go to and he used to play with this ex-con and the ex-con learned how to do chess in prison in his head with no pieces and his kid would just sit there and play chess back and forth of each other like what are you guys doing how how do you know where that board is you could play it blindfolded with four people in your head yeah wow that's intense man how'd you learn how to do that just repetition over time yeah doing it a lot and just obsessing over it and this is actually

153:50one of the differences and average between men and women is there are more men that are just become obsessed with these systems mmm and so you know Magic the Gathering the card game was also something that became super obsessed with and so the way that people approach computers to is different where you know some are a lot of boys just approach the computer as a toy and they become obsessed with tinkering with the computer while a lot of girls see it as a tool for improving the world and so they may not be interested in the computer as an end to itself mm-hmm and so a lot of the education programs to get more women into tech are actually addressing that but it's unclear because like so much of coding is just you know writing server code and this server is going to talk to this which is talking to that server and it's totally unconnected to actual people and

154:49but you know that's why we actually see more women and front-end and user experience engineering positions because it's more interactive with people what are the numbers with women in chess yeah there aren't that many and it's unfortunate is it unfortunate because it's just it is yeah yeah I don't play chess is that unfortunate so why is it unfortunate that women are underrepresented well just for the cases of maybe they feel like a minority and yet right and a lot of the mistreatment of women is not you know ill intention men that want to be sexist against men it's just I and I felt this a lot you know everyone wants a girl to play chess or play Magic the Gathering you know that that's their ideal girlfriend right right so and but they're all nerdy guys or generally and they don't have as good social skills as the average population and you know they're pretty similar to

155:56the people playing or writing code so it's a similar situation so they just don't know how to interact with women and that causes some problems mmm but so it's not the just overt sexism against women it's more just we don't really know how to interact with women we just you know we're obsessed with chess or whatever and we just like talking about chess and there a lot of women that just aren't as obsessed with these sort of systems so but I mean that's not a bad thing right it just is what it is yeah I mean I'm sure there's a bunch of fashion things and a status thing except aesthetic things and design things that women are really into that a lot of men don't give a about yeah it's not a terrible thing that men aren't into design yeah there's not more men involved in interior design it's not terrible thing and that's sort of one of the unfortunate things too is that there's

157:00so much fighting to get more women into tech but there's no fighting to get more men into nursing right yeah and you know these more female dominated careers do you think that's also because of the financial rewards of tech are so extreme in comparison like nursing is a pretty capped salary whereas if you can climb the corporate ladder as a you know a CEO of some sort of a tech company the rewards are substantial yet I I think inevitably there will be more men attracted to high-paying jobs simply because they fight for status and money is how you gain status often so that's partly why they see tech as a target but it's not as if nursing is a bad job right that gets paid well and there are many people that you know go to college for pre-med and drop out like 90 percent of people that start as pre-med drop out and the men feel like they can't enter nursing because that's too feminine

158:00mm-hmm and there's huge biases against men becoming feminine like you know men can't wear dresses but girls can be openly tomboyish right right so there's unfortunately some asymmetries in our culture and there's reasons for it you know if a guy is too feminine then he can't necessarily fulfill his gender role which is being a provider and protector so you know you have to be aggressive to be a good protector and provider for your wife but the females gender role being a nurturer is you know it's fine to be feminine and so a lot of the gender disparities that we see and gender norms are just put behind those two gender roles yeah I think there's a lot of evidence to support that and I think that was essentially a big part of what you were talking about in your memo and I don't think you're a bad guy dude and I think you've been unfairly maligned I'm glad we had a chance to sit down and

159:11talk and and I wish you well man I hope it all works out and keep us posted and we'll let everybody else know - okay oh yeah yeah thank you James appreciate it man very nice to meet you thank you all right folks that's it for today bye-bye