真正的幸福这门艺术 | Dr. Arthur Brooks
The Art of True Happiness | Dr. Arthur Brooks
Guests: Arthur Brooks
Full transcript · Read the full conversation in order, with its original context.
Contents16 chapters
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最幸福的人生有三种宏量营养素。
最幸福的人拥有享受、满足感和意义。
这就是三种宏量营养素。
这一点很重要，因为这意味着你需要享受生活，
而且你需要知道享受和快乐之间的区别，
很多人并不知道这一点。
我的意思是，追求快乐并不是幸福的秘诀。
它是进入康复机构的秘诀。
满足感，也就是经历奋斗之后从一项成就或一项活动中获得的喜悦，
最后但同样重要的是意义。
也就是你存在的原因。
最幸福的人都能把握住这三件事，
而且他们会非常、非常积极地追求这三件事。
现在，在这三件事之中，
都有一种叫作不幸福的奇怪东西。
在每一种幸福的宏量营养素之中，
你都会发现不满、挫折和大量痛苦。
如果你用一生去做很多人如今正在做的事，
试图逃避不幸福，试图逃避并消除痛苦，
就会错过自己的幸福。欢迎收听 Huberman Lab 播客，
我们在这里讨论科学以及以科学为基础的日常生活工具。
我是 Andrew Huberman，是斯坦福医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授，
我的嘉宾是 Arthur Brooks 博士。Arthur Brooks 是一名教授，
任教于范德比尔特大学，也是哈佛商学院的高级研究员。今天，我们讨论
是什么让人真正幸福，
以及我们所谓的幸福究竟是什么。
我喜欢 Arthur Brooks 的地方，
你们今天会意识到，
他会参考实验数据、哲学，
以及他自己和其他人的经历，
从而提出一些你可以问自己的具体问题，
来确定什么对你最重要，
以及什么在阻碍你，
让你无法真正得到那些东西。
事实上，我必须说，这期与 Arthur Brooks 的节目
是 Huberman Lab 播客有史以来我最喜欢的节目之一。
他极其诚实。
他很开放。
他慷慨地分享能够帮助你，也就是帮助听众的知识，而且他极其谦逊。感谢 Arthur，
你即将听到的这段对话，我相信你会愿意思考它，
付诸行动，并且定期回来重新思考。我可以确定地说，对我自己而言，这是我
很久以前就希望听到的一段对话。Arthur 并没有所有答案，他也没有声称
自己拥有所有答案，但我确实认为，他有一种经过艰苦历练的指南针，以及一套我们所有人都能运用的地图，
帮助我们拥有更好、确实是更精彩的人生。在开始之前，我想强调，这档
播客与我在斯坦福的教学和研究工作是分开的。
不过，它确实是我努力的一部分，
旨在向大众免费提供有关科学的信息，
以及与科学相关的工具。
与这一主题一致，
今天的节目包含赞助商。
现在开始我与 Arthur Brooks 博士的对话。
Arthur Brooks 博士，欢迎你。
谢谢你，Andrew Huberman 博士。
我们只在播客开始时称呼对方一次博士，
就在开头称呼。
很高兴你来到这里。
我也是。
是的，我把你当作朋友。
在我们成为朋友之前，你就已经是我的老师了。
我从你那里学到了很多东西。
你拥有大量智慧。
在你进入谦逊的自我、把这些话推开之前，我真的想强调这一点，因为有很多人在影响、教育、提供建议、指导等等。
但你确实代表了思想、实践和智慧的汇聚，以我和其他人真正能够理解并从中受益的方式呈现出来。
所以我真的很期待你来到这里。
谢谢。
我也是。
我的意思是，你在过去五年半左右的时间里，通过这档播客所做的一切。
差不多，是的。
你改变了教育者接触大量人群的整个方式。
我们需要的是教育者。
科学，以及公众利益。
我们希望触动人们的生活。
把它们结合起来，用科学，用思想。那你究竟怎么做到？你展示了路径。
因为你所做的是在六个月内创办了这档播客。这是一件大事。而你
向整整一代人展示了这一点，这些人有的比你年轻，有的比你年长，我就比你年长，
那就是人们可以做到这件事，我们可以接触到很多人。你让这成为可能。你
让这对我成为可能。这是一份不可思议的礼物。嗯，我很荣幸，也谢谢你。我今天意识到，
也许这段对话最难的部分，是要确保我把
你的注意力稍微放在你自己身上。你很谦逊，但我很感激你的好意，我把我们视为
同事和朋友。所以大家称你为‘幸福专家’。你很了解幸福，了解它
是什么以及不是什么。所以我们先从第一原则开始，让人们真正能够理解并
应用它。悲伤与幸福有什么区别，还是说那是
大多数人一开始就用了错误的幸福模型。
所以，在定义幸福之前，你无法定义不幸福。
而幸福并不是大多数人以为的那样。
大多数人把幸福理解为一种感觉、一种情绪。
这完全不对，就像火鸡的香味并不等同于你的感恩节晚餐一样。
火鸡的香味是你享用感恩节晚餐的证据。
而幸福的感觉是幸福存在的证据。
我第一次进入这个领域时，我已经做了 30 年行为科学研究。
但后来我开始专门研究人类幸福这门科学。
2008 年，我写了自己的第一本相关著作。
但在 2019 年，我离开学术界，去华盛顿特区管理一家大型智库，休整了一段时间之后，我决定要在余下的职业生涯中专门研究这个大多数人都认为自己想要的东西。
我要真正让它发挥作用。
当然，那就是幸福。
人们想变得更幸福。
而我意识到的第一件事是，幸福并没有一个很好的定义。
这实在太疯狂了。
我无法准确地定义它。
我无法用语言描述它，但当我感受到它时，我知道那就是它。
这 is what I 会 get when I 会 ask my classes.
So what do 你 think 你're studying?
或 it's how I feel when I'm 与 the 人们 那 I love 或 doing the things 那 I enjoy.
和 I recognized 那 这 会 be completely inadequate in any other area of science.
和 so I went back to try to find the right metaphor, the right parallel field to define happiness.
和 I felt 那 the field of nutrition did it 确实 well by taking food 和 breaking it 进入 macronutrients 和 micronutrients.
So I asked myself, okay, what are the macronutrients of happiness?
What are the fundamental elemental building blocks of happiness?
和 to figure 那 out, 你 go 和 你 look at the 人们 who have the highest life satisfaction 那's measured in robust 和 proper ways, good construct validity, good science behind it.
和 what 你 find is doing kind of a factor analysis is 那 there are 三 macronutrients to the happiest life.
The happiest 人们 have enjoyment, satisfaction, 和 meaning.
那些 are the 三 macronutrients.
Now, 那's 重要 因为 it means 你 need to enjoy 你的 life 和 你 need to know the difference between enjoyment 和 pleasure, which many 人们 don't.
I mean, the pursuit of pleasure is not the secret to happiness.
It's the secret to rehab, right?
和 so 你 have to understand, right?
对于 sure.
satisfaction, which is the joy of an accomplishment 或 an activity 之后 struggle.
和 last 但 not least is meaning, the why of 你的 existence.
The happiest 人们 have a bead on 那些 三 things,
和 they pursue 那些 三 things 确实, 确实 actively.
Now, inside all 三 of 那些 things, there's 这 funny thing called unhappiness.
Inside each of the macronutrients of happiness,
你 find discontent 和 frustration 和 a lot of suffering.
或 I 应该 say the 秒 misunderstanding 关于 happiness
is 那 it's incompatible 与 unhappiness.
It's not.
If 你 spend 你的 life, which many 人们 do today,
trying to avoid unhappiness,
trying to avoid 和 eliminate suffering,
they 会 paradoxically miss their own happiness.
So 那's the 首先 thing to understand.
Could 你 drill a little bit deeper
进入 enjoyment, satisfaction, 和 meaning?
Yeah.
和 maybe just put some contour on each of 那些.
Sure.
和 then go back to unhappiness 和 suffering
to all 三.
对于 sure.
So enjoyment is 非常 much related to pleasure,
但 pleasure is fundamentally a limbic phenomenon.
I mean, if 你 touch in experiments,
你've done 这些,
你've seen 这些 experiments forever,
the ventral striatum
或 the ventral tegmental area,
你 可以 get 这 stimulation
of 这些 parts of the 大脑
那 会 give 你 这 sense of ebullience,
这 sense of immediate joy
从 anything 从 你的 girlfriend saying,
Andrew, I love 你,
或 a big bump of cocaine.
Not 那 你 会,
因为 the 大脑 is so unbelievably thrifty, right?
那's not part of happiness.
那's a phenomenon 从 sort of the Pleistocene 大脑,
从 something, the middle Pleistocene, what, 250,000 years ago,
saying 那 rewards 你.
Go get 更多 of 那 is kind of what it comes down to.
你 don't want to have 那 as 你的 goal in life.
I mean, like the hippies used to say, if it feels good, do it.
My dad said 那's the end of America.
He was kind of right.
I don't think 我们 have the same dad, 但...
Separated brothers.
Yeah, my dad 和...
No disrespect to the hippies, 但 my dad had 非常 clear thoughts
关于 how the children of 人们 与 那 mindset were at a disadvantage
因为 of 那 message specifically.
What 会 happen, of course, 非常 quickly is 那 你的 pleasures,
which are fundamentally animal, I mean, 你的 dog,
你的 beautiful new dog, friendly new dog 那 I just met,
he has a limbic 系统 not 那 不同的 than yours,
emotions 那 are not 那 不同的 than yours, right? I mean, he has amygdala, 你 know,
he has a dorsal anterior cingulate cortex. He has a ventral straight. I mean, he's got all 这些
不同的 parts just kind of like 我们 do, 但 he's not human 因为 he's managed largely by 这些
emotions. 和 我们 have 这 choice. 我们 have 这 incredible prefrontal cortex, 这 human cortex
那's enormous. 你的 dog's is wafer thin. Ours is like 30% of the weight of 我们的 大脑.
和 what 那 supercomputer allows us to do is to choose between animal impulses 和 moral aspirations. 我们 get to make
那 choice. 那's a conscious executive choice. When 我们 convert pleasure 进入 enjoyment, it's
因为 it takes on moral aspiration to it. 我们 take 我们的 pleasures 和 我们 add 人们 和 memory,
thereby kind of delivering them to an executive experience 那 我们're managing, 那 我们 understand,
那 我们're conscious of, 那 我们 可以 remember, 和 那's fundamentally social. It's quintessentially
as a matter of fact.
那's what it's all 关于.
So I talk to my students who are graduate students,
who are 28 years old on average,
和 my kids who are 28, 26, 和 23.
What does 这 mean?
和 对于 most 人们, what it means is
if there's something 那 makes 你 feel good,
因为 我们 all have 我们的 thing,
whether it's highly glycemic carbohydrates
或 any kind of addictive behavior.
和 in point of fact, it 可以 be dependence-provoking,
which many things 可以 when they wire
进入 the 多巴胺 系统.
你've talked 关于 这 ad nauseum
§02Transcript — part 2
so many times I've heard 你 talk 关于 这.
If 你're doing it alone,
你're probably doing it wrong.
Probably it's probably 更多 关于 pleasure
和 更少 关于 enjoyment.
It's not a perfect rule.
I like to walk in the woods by myself
和 say my prayers,
但 那些 things aren't addictive.
和 so 那's how to think 关于 it.
你 need to enjoy 你的 life.
和 那 means there are things
那 give 你 pleasure
at a metaphysical 或 physical 水平,
但 they also have 人们 in memory
和 你're managing them 和 they're not managing 你.
So 那's kind of in a nutshell how I think 关于 enjoyment.
Now, many 人们 are bad at 那, 尤其是 strivers.
Who listens to 你的 podcast?
人们 who are serious 关于 their lives.
There's nobody 那's like, eh, whatever.
Who's going to listen to 你的 podcast?
我们're not a whatever podcast.
你're a striver podcast.
我们 应该 do a title card sometime, How to Whatever.
Yeah, I know.
那 won't go 非常 well.
那'll be 我们的 April Fool's episode.
I know.
那's not 一 of 那些 podcasts.
你 had guys like me on, right?
一 of the things they 经常 struggle 与 if they're 非常, 非常, 非常 competitive,
if they're ambitious, if they're successful,
is 那 they want to be special 更多 than they want to be happy.
和 so they want to put points on the board.
和 if it's not putting points on the board, they're not going to do it.
和 这些 are the 人们 那 I have to work 与 to work on the macronutrient of enjoyment.
Is there fear 那 were they to enjoy life 更多, be happier?
I'm probably using 这些 terms incorrectly.
No, no, no, why not?
Somehow they 会 lose their drive. 因为 as 你 were describing enjoyment, satisfaction, 和 meaning, 和 by the
way, I love 这 description of enjoyment as, 你 know, 我们 have animal impulses, 但 then there's
这 other end of the spectrum, which are moral aspirations. Wouldn't at least some component of
a great life be to marry 那些 二 things so 那 你的 pursuit of 这些 animal impulses actually
raised 你 up morally? I mean, 那's the ultimate. I mean, 我们 have so many examples now in the media
prominent politicians in particular 与 all the elections going on where their careers are tanked
i do believe they 可能 have been trying to be good 人们
on average 但 they they temptation ruined 那 career anyway totally 和 so it's clear it exists
in them 和 和 in many 和 everyone right yeah 但 the fact 那 那 可以 happen to it's almost
feels like a misuse of the animal impulse. Is there a way to marry animal impulse to moral
aspiration in a way 那's seamless 或 is it 总是 work? No, no. 你 have just defined enjoyment.
Proper enjoyment is 一 where 你're doing what 你 think is prudent 和 natural 和 good
to do. It's something 那 你 want to see yourself doing 和 at the same time is pleasurable.
你 know, 那's why the best moments over the course of my 35-year marriage are highly pleasurable 和 extremely enjoyable.
和 it's the kind of thing where I could get, 你 know, found out by the press 那 I'm having another beautiful 夜间 与 Esther.
你 know, 那's good is what it comes down to.
和 the truth is 我们 all struggle 与 这些 things 因为 我们 are biological creatures.
你 know, I'm fundamentally a behavioral scientist, 但 psychology is biology.
I've had to retrain in so many of 这些 areas, 尤其是 over the past 10 years, is 因为 the biology has become so salient in 我们的 field.
和 一 of the things 那 你 find is 那 the trouble 那 人们 actually have is when animal impulse 和 moral aspiration go in 不同的 directions.
和 一 of the great strategies 对于 life is how to point them in the same direction.
和 sometimes 你 have to choose.
Sometimes 你 have to choose.
和 人们 feel like, if it feels good, it must be good 对于 me.
和 so I'm going to do it.
那's having the same life goals as protozoa 或 something.
或 if it feels bad, it must be bad 对于 me.
Yeah, 对于 example.
和 there's probably a lot of things 那 人们 could benefit 从 doing 那 are going to feel, quote, unquote, painful in the process.
Now 我们're in the gym.
I'm a gym rat.
So are 你.
Do 你 like 训练?
I like 训练.
I 确实 do like 训练.
但 it's a funny thing 因为 leg 天, I still want to throw up.
I've been in the gym almost every 天 对于 30 years.
Wow.
I feel good.
I mean, it's obvious to anyone watching, 但 你're...
No, 但 I feel good, yeah.
Is it okay to share?
你're 62?
Yeah, 62 years old, yeah.
In great shape.
Yeah, 和 it's...
你 know, I've got genetics 那 keep me 确实 lean, so it's not like it's any flex 那
I 可以 stay at, 你 know, 10% 身体 fat 或 something like 那.
那's not...
那's just nature.
但 the truth is, I recognize 那 I need to keep the machine in good shape, 因为
the 大脑 is part of the machine.
和 as 我们 both know,
hard 运动, picking up heavy things
和 running 大约 is
fundamental to affect management
和 also to the maintenance of the overall functioning
of how the machine works. I don't want to fall prey to
type 3
diabetes, which is what 我们're calling
Alzheimer's 这些 天. I don't want
metabolic disorders 那 are avoidable.
So I actually do 那. Now,
leg 天 sucks, man.
I mean, I've been doing leg 天 every fourth 天
对于 30 years.
和 I still don't like it.
I 会 still skip leg 天.
Every 天 会 be chest 天
因为 everybody likes chest 天, right?
因为 it feels better.
但 the truth is 那 I do it
因为 I actually know
how the 肌肉 protein synthesis works.
I know 那 对于 激素 balance,
leg 天 is the most 重要 天
对于 这些 确实 large 肌肉 groups.
和 what am I doing?
I'm making the decision
to do something 那 foregoes my comfort,
my pleasure,
even a moment of my happiness
对于 the moral aspiration 那 I actually have.
和 那 leads to 这,
重要 conclusion 从 the 研究 in 这 area, which is 那 Mother Nature
doesn't care if 你're happy. 这 is, it's, 你 know, 我们 all think it's like, if I'm not happy,
then something's not right. No, no. It 可能 非常 well be not right. 你 know, there are all kinds
of suffering 那 你 actually need to grow as a person. 你 need negative emotions 因为
negative emotions are an alarm 系统 那 show 那 你的 reptilian 大脑 has registered signals
signals to 你的 limbic 系统 和 setting off alarms 从 sadness 和 anger 和 disgust 和 fear,
那's unpleasant, 但 那 doesn't mean anything's wrong. It means everything's right.
How 你 react to it 可以 be how 你 want to, in so doing, having a better life,
notwithstanding the fact 那 it doesn't feel good. 和 那's a life of discipline. 那's a
life of the kind of behavior 那 你 actually want. 那's worth moral aspiration.
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§03Transcript — part 3
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I've got 这 statement 那 你 just mentioned, like ringing in my ears in the best way, which
is 那 你're saying 这 moral aspiration piece has a lot to do 与 或 reflects doing
what 你 want to see yourself doing.
I 确实 like 那 因为 I think 对于 many 人们, they want to see themselves doing things 那 others 会 approve of.
和 从 a young age, 我们're told what 我们 应该 do 和 why.
你 need to get dressed up 对于 这 event, 或 你 need to sit a certain way, eat a certain way, be polite, 和 这些 things, which are all 重要 parts of 我们的 训练 as humans.
Right. 但 there's something 确实 special 那 happens when 我们, as 你 point out, when 我们 see ourselves doing something 和 it feels good 和 我们, it's a positive self-reflection of the non-egotistical kind. Right. 和 I don't think 我们 talk enough 关于 这 因为 there's so much out there now 关于 how social media is all 关于 comparisons. So 人们 are showing other 人们, here's what I'm doing.
但 there's a 不同的 version of 那 where somebody does something 那 they're proud of 和 puts it to the Internet 和 they're seeing themselves do something 那 they're proud of doing 和 they get the feedback.
和, 你 know, provided 那 their ego is in check 和 they don't let the positive comments go to their head 或 set them up 对于 disappointment when they don't get as many of them the next time.
Things 那 are wired 进入 那些 reinforcement 回路.
I think 那's great.
They're seeing themselves exercising.
By the way, it could be painting.
It could be being in volunteer 和 service.
和 我们 tend to look at 那 stuff 和 say, oh, 你 know, they're just doing the display.
So my question is to 确实 get the ideal match between 这 animal impulse 和 moral aspirations piece,
那 我们 see ourselves 和 experience ourselves doing what 我们 want to see ourselves doing 和 那 我们 not share it.
因为 I'm open to the idea 那 the sharing diminishes it somehow.
It 可以.
Yeah.
It 可以.
但 fundamentally I think it's actually quite 重要 那 你 declare what 你的 moral
aspirations are 和 part of the reason is 因为 这 gives 你 a commitment bias so there's a lot
of behavioral science 关于 那 a lot of psychology 那 actually talks 关于 commitments
bias when 你 say here's the thing 那 I'm actually gonna do I'm gonna finish my PhD
right 这 is a big part of weddings I attended a lot of weddings 和 it's kind of an amazing
thing 这 wedding ceremony yeah makes 你 path dependent toward 你的 own aspirations stand up
和 give a bunch of 确实 amazing promises
in front of all their friends.
和 then they get a bunch of gifts.
和 I'm not cynical 关于 这 at all.
Like 从 a reward 通路 perspective,
it's like 你're rewarding the promises
那 they're making in addition to the union
那 they're in right there.
A lot of the reward is like 你're giving them things
对于 their life going forward.
Sadly, I have a number of friends who've been divorced
和 they, depending on how long ago the wedding was,
they 经常 feel quite sheepish 关于 all the gifts.
Like they got all 这些 gifts 对于 the promises they made.
changed their 心智.
Some cases broken 那些 promises,
但 they've changed their 心智.
It's not till death do us part.
It's now until it got inconvenient enough
那 我们're going to part ways.
和 it's an incredible,
still occurring,
kind of ancient display of promising publicly,
I'm not going to quit.
Yeah, no, totally.
这 is my person 通过 thick 和 thin,
通过 sickness 和 in health
和 all the things 那 你 actually talk 关于.
In the wedding promises, 你're saying it's going to suck sometimes.
那's what 你're saying.
I mean, it's like richer 和 poorer.
和 我们're going to stick 这 thing out despite the fact 那 我们're stating right up front 那 there's going to be times of poverty.
There's going to be times of sickness.
There's going to be trouble ahead.
和 那's basically saying 那 happiness has unhappiness in it.
I'm defining happiness.
How am I defining happiness?
那 I'm going to get 80, 90 years,
和 as I take my dying breath, I'm going to be looking.
I'm like Don Quixote, 和 这 is my Dulcinella,
和 I'm going to be looking 进入 her eyes
as I recite the Holy Scriptures 和 take my dying breath.
那's basically what 你're saying,
和 你're defining 那 as 你的 bliss.
I mean, if it weren't 你的 bliss, 你'd be like,
why are 你 doing it?
I want it, 因为 那's a good life.
那's what 你're stating,
和 你're laying out what actually happiness looks 对于,
你're saying it's going to be full of unhappiness.
那's what 你're saying.
和 那's the thing 对于 人们 to understand,
那 那's what it comes down to.
When 你 are laying out publicly 你的 moral commitments,
when 你're actually saying 这,
what 你're saying is 你're recognizing 那 happiness 和 unhappiness are intertwined
和 你 want the full.
你're basically saying, bring it on.
It's like courage.
It's a declaration of 你的 independence 从 the world
和 你的 dependence on each other,
thing. It's what 你 do when 你're publicly baptized as an adult. Anytime 那 你're taken
进入 a new religion, there's 总是 这些 commitments 关于 这些 moral aspirations
那 你're making, recognizing, yeah, sometimes 这 is going to go contrary to my animal impulses.
Absolutely. 和, 你 know, 这 is 一 of the things 那 I love 关于 sort of the modern
internet culture. There's a lot to regret. There's a lot 那 你 和 I look at, 我们're like, oh, no.
但 the other thing I 确实, 确实 like is 这 facilitated, 这 wholesale movement of
aspiration 对于 excellence. A lot of 人们, they want to be excellent. 你 know, it's like, I mean,
这 isn't just the Huberman podcast. It's not just entertainment, high-class entertainment. 人们
want an edge. They want to know, 你 know, why, why are they so attracted to the 方案?
方案 toward what? Toward being better. They want to be 更多 successful. They want to be
better liked. They want things to go better 对于 them. 那's a, 那's a human drive 对于 excellence.
和 when 人们 可以 finally make peace 与 the fact 那 你的 animal impulses 会 not 总是 和 frequently not lead 你 to excellence, then 你 可以 finally be free.
Do 你 think 那 a lot of the friction out there politically, socially, is basically 关于 drawing the line between what is animal impulse 和 what is moral aspiration?
I mean, I don't want to take us too far down.
No, tell me 更多.
What do 你 mean?
I mean, some of the animal impulses are obvious, right?
和 they're all, 对于 the neurobiologists, 我们 会 say they're 非常 like limbic hypothalamic, right?
Yeah.
但, 你 know, some 人们 会 say, okay, like here's the quote-unquote traditional model of marriage 和 morality.
Yeah.
和 some 人们 会 say, actually, 我们 want to kind of bend 那 a certain way where 人们 could have quote-unquote unconventional relationships 或 unconventional families.
I mean, I think everyone 会 agree 那 lying, cheating, 和 stealing is bad.
Right.
Right?
但 there's an attempt, I think, to draw a kind of jagged line between moral 和 immoral 那 certain things 那 are not of biblical, traditional morality are okay 因为 as long as they're done consensually 和 in the name of love.
Right.
Right?
和 我们're not talking 关于 breaking laws here.
Some 人们 确实 push 这 to the extreme.
I know, I know.
那's not what I'm talking 关于.
那's marginal, right?
和 I'm staying off 具体的 issues, not to be like politically careful here, 但 just 因为 I feel like a lot of it is like, where are 我们 going to draw the line between limbic 和 higher order?
In fact, it actually gets inverted where 人们 会 say, no, the 更多 evolved way of thinking is past all 那, where 你 可以 确实 get beyond 这 非常 black 和 white morality 和 确实 say, no, there's all sorts of versions of what love, family, marriage, commitment, child rearing could look like.
Pontius Pilate, what is truth?
Right.
It's 非常 postmodern.
Yeah, it is 非常 postmodern. 但 I think 那 it, I mean, I feel like 这 is 那, like 人们 are pulling back 和 forth on 这 line. Just like in science, 人们 are trying to say the scientists 和 doctors 那 are all, 你 know, traditional scientists 和 physicians, they have the knowledge. 和 then the general components of the general public are saying, actually, 期间 the pandemic, 你 lied, 你 know, like a teenager telling their end, like, 你 need to admit 你 lied. 和 then they're like, I didn't lie. 你 know, 和 so there's just trying to pull back. 我们 have the torch of truth. No, 我们 have the torch of truth.
there are elements of truth on both sides.
Yeah, yeah.
Right?
但 与 这, in 这 case, it's sort of, I think at the extremes, 我们 all understand
murder is bad, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Lying, cheating, stealing, bad, right?
但 then what constitutes a moral aspiration to 一 camp is actually a moral insult.
Right.
和 vice versa.
So Jon Haidt, 你've had him on the show, right?
Yes.
Yeah, Jon Haidt's great.
和 Jon Haidt 和 I go way back.
我们 go back to the early part of the 21st century.
和 Jon Haidt 和 I are just the same age, 和 我们've had 这些 sort of parallel careers writing 关于 science of human happiness.
那 guy's a visionary.
He's probably the greatest social scientist of 我们的 generation.
Wow.
He's 那 great.
I mean, he's unbelievable.
He wrote a book 关于 moral foundations, 和 he talked 关于 the fact 那 there are 二 moral foundations 那 everybody has in common, 和 那's care 和 fairness.
Care 对于 others 和 fairness.
Now, 我们 define 那些 things differently.
Does the care mean giving everybody, taking care of them at the base 水平?
或 does it mean everybody gets an apartment 和 free groceries?
I mean, 你 figure out what 那 means.
和 那's a legitimate argument 关于 what it means.
Fairness is 确实, 确实 不同的, 尤其是 between political poles,
where 一 side is 关于 redistributive fairness,
和 the other side is 关于 meritocratic fairness,
what fairness actually means.
但 everybody wants a fair 和 caring society,
和 你 believe 那 你 应该 be fair as a parent,
你 应该 care 对于 你的 kids.
Then what he shows empirically 与 his work, which no doubt has a huge neurobiological basis,
和 I'm sure has a huge genetic basis as well, 因为 这些 personality characteristics generally do,
或 usually between, in the identical twin 研究, it's usually 40 to 80% genetic,
all the aspects of personality, which is super interesting in 和 of itself,
is 那 there's 三 elements of morality 那 are 非常 不同的 between the political poles.
They are loyalty, purity, 和 authority.
So loyalty is like flag burning is bad, right?
你 know, I come 从 a 非常 mostly progressive family, politically progressive family.
和 if I asked somebody, 你 know, 从 my family of origin, what do 你 think 关于 flag burning?
They'd be like inadvisable, right?
As opposed to morally evil.
Right, soft answer.
Yeah, when it comes, right?
和 the 秒 is loyalty, 你 know, loyalty to tribe.
和 what 你 find is 那 人们 who are 更多 on the politically conservative side, they have a 不同的 sense of loyalty.
loyalty towards sports teams.
So 你 find 那 when 你,
in 这些 interesting 研究
那 你 go 进入
a political conservative's office
和 你'll find like a sports poster
where in a political liberal's office,
你're 非常, 非常 much 更少 可能
to find 这 is what 你 find.
和 then of course 这,
where it 确实 has teeth
is toward national identity,
where 你're loyal toward national.
It's like my country right 或 wrong,
which is 一 of the reasons
你 find such a strong
political preponderance
of 一 side in the military forces.
in the American military as opposed to the other.
§04Transcript — part 4
Not to say 那 一 side's right 或 wrong,
但 那's just how it comes down.
John Haidt 会 say 那's a difference in moral foundations.
和 the last 那 你 were 确实 touching on here is purity.
It's moral purity.
和 the moral purity is 关于, 对于 example, in sexual matters.
It's 非常, 非常 profound.
和 so there's a, I've seen a bumper sticker in San Francisco
那 says, 你的 身体 may be a temple, 但 mine is an amusement park.
Right?
It's funny in its way, right?
但 what 那 is basically saying is-
It's 非常, what I 会 call, 因为 I'm 从 the Bay Area, sort of older San Francisco, like circa 70s to now.
Now there's a kind of a growing conservative movement, somewhat tucked 进入 the tech community, 尽管 你 find a mix of both.
你 find a mix of both, too.
但 it's kind of a libertine thing where libertarianism 和 libertinism diverge, which is a 确实 interesting boundary, too, is what 你 find.
但 那 actually describes 那些 differences are, 你 know, so, so, 你 know, each side 会 say the
other side is immoral. No, they're differently moraled. 和 你 decide, 你 know, which 你
think is right. 和 if 你 tell me in a structured survey, what 你 think is right on 那些 particular
issues, I have a 非常 high degree of certitude in guessing how 你 vote. Actually. Now, some
人们 are in 这些 weird things. 你 可以 be in kind of a, 你 可以 be a political conservative,
但 a cultural liberal, right?
那些 aren't 非常 many 人们, 但 你 do find them.
They tend to be the political libertarians,
as a matter of fact.
It's fascinating 因为 ultimately here,
我们're talking 关于 drawing boundaries
between 不同的 大脑 areas.
At least 那's what the neurobiologist in me thinks.
但 I mean, obviously, politics, laws,
和 behavior matters a lot.
It 确实 matters 因为 ultimately,
人们 可以 say all sorts of things
关于 what they believe, what they want to be,
但 我们 are ultimately judged on what 我们 do.
和 I think 我们 probably judge ourselves on the basis of what 我们 do,
或 ideally 我们 会 look at 那.
Let's talk a little bit 关于...
我们've gone 通过 一 macronutrient.
Right, 一 macronutrient.
What exercises do 你 suggest to students
to start to explore their own relationship
between animal impulse 和 moral aspiration?
Yeah, so 一 of the things 那 I talk 关于
is how they understand leisure. So leisure is what 你 do 和 they're not compensating 你 对于 in the time 那's
actually free, how 你 understand leisure. So, 和 the greatest writer 关于 这 is Josef Pieper,
the mid 20th century German philosopher. His most 重要 book was Leisure, the Basis of Culture.
那's his most inflecting. It's actually a long essay. It's 非常, 非常 beautiful. He says,
I 可以 tell 你 everything 你 need to know 关于 a culture by how they actually use leisure.
He doesn't want to know what 你 do 对于 money.
He wants to know how 你 use 你的 time
when nobody's paying 你.
那's 因为 he says 那's what reflects
who 你 actually are.
那's why I 从不 liked the,
oh, 你 可以 tell by the books on somebody's shelf.
因为 books on somebody's shelf
doesn't mean they actually read 那些 books.
因为 they own 那些 books.
Right, exactly.
Many 人们 own my books who haven't read them.
Well, I've spent some time 与 it.
I still need to pore 通过 it again.
我们 可以't wait to read 方案, by the way.
Oh, thanks.
If nothing else, 方案 会 cure insomnia. The thing is almost 600 pages long thank 你 um uh 你的 book's awesome 和 i uh i spend
some time 与 it i want to spend 更多 time 与 it um in part 因为 it marries theory 与
practical steps 和 prompts not ai prompts 但 the kind of prompts 你 确实 give oneself so
这 thing 关于 leisure is fascinating yeah leisure is 确实 interesting it's like 那 那
tells 你 what 你 need to know 关于 a culture 但 also 关于 a person in a way 和 so if 你
find somebody who's using the leisure time to meet animal appetites, 那's 一 thing. If they're
actually using it 对于 personal betterment, 对于 personal betterment, not career betterment,
not 对于 the compensation, it actually comes 从 the worldly rewards. There's four worldly rewards,
money, power, pleasure, 和 honor. 和 if 你're doing something such 那 it doesn't reward 你
in 一 of 那些 areas, 那 actually comes 从 Aristotle 和 Aquinas, et cetera, then 你're
actually doing what he 会 call proper leisure. 你're doing proper leisure toward, 你 know,
moral aspiration, which is ultimately the most rewarding thing. 那's ultimately what 会
take 你 从 the world of pleasure 进入 the world of enjoyment 和 give 你 greater happiness.
那's the theory. 和 it's, 和 it's, it's actually been verified a lot in a lot of 这些
ideas, the best questions 那 come 从 the philosophers 和 then, 和 then the structural
mechanisms come 从 neuroscience. 和 then the testing of 这些 ideas comes 从 the behavioral
sciences, right? Do the experiments, et cetera. Then of course, applying them to 你的 life is a
不同的 kettle of fish. 和 so what he says is 那 there's kind of 三 areas 那 make proper
leisure 和 ultimate enjoyment. Want me to tell 你 那? Please. Yeah. Number 一 is deepening
relationships on purpose, man. I mean, on purpose. 和 so leisure is 这 weekend, I'm envisioning
myself not touching my phone while I'm 与 my wife, right? Deepening my relationship,
being fully present 对于 my wife. 和 I'm going to go someplace not 因为 I want to chill
on the beach, 但 因为 I want to be on the beach 与 the love of my life.
So deepening relationships on purpose 与 a real 专注 on 那. The 秒 is learning
something 你 don't need to learn. 和 the third is actually developing yourself metaphysically.
is 你的 spiritual, 你的 religious life, 或 你的 philosophical life. It's to transcend
what's going on here 对于 no other reason than the fact 那 你 seek transcendence. 那些 are the
三 areas of proper leisure. 和 那's how he 会 say, I know 那 你're going 从 pleasure
to enjoyment. 那's how I know based on what 你're doing, even though 你 don't have to.
I love 这. I'll tell 你 several of the reasons why I love it. 一 is 人们 从 time to time
会 say, what do 你 do 对于 fun?
It's a 非常 difficult question 对于 me to answer
因为 人们 可能 be-
因为 你的 work is fun, by the way.
My work is so much fun.
I know.
Like I'm reading 这 book 关于 sunlight
和 how the dermatology world is revising
their understanding 关于 sun 和 皮肤 cancer.
和 I'm loving 那.
I love my- I mean, I could list it off,
但 I just say 那些 things to just get 人们
to think 关于 what they enjoy doing.
但 the word 那, 你 know, keeps coming up in my 心智
因为 I have a hard time 与 the fun thing
do other things 那 are purely recreational is 这 word enrichment.
I mean, it sounds kind of, 你 know, 你 know, like somebody is trying to be an academic
when they say like, like, what do 你 do 对于 enrichment?
It doesn't, it's not, it's not as natural a question 这些 天 as like, what do 你
do 对于 fun?
It's like, what do 你 do 对于 你的 own enrichment?
It, it, it reshapes the question a little bit 因为 the implication is it's not just
关于 immediate pleasure, which fun kind of falls 进入 the groove of pleasure.
It's 关于 personal excellence.
你 come out of it better.
Right.
Not just 对于 having experienced whatever it was the activity was, 但 there's something carried forward 进入 other things 那 你 do.
和 in a good way.
和 so the word enrichment feels good.
It's the reason why, even though I was in the sciences as an undergraduate, I decided to take a course in Greek mythology 和 loved it, loved, loved, loved it.
那 was leisure.
和 it turns out it was neuroscience too, right?
Years later, 我们 talk 关于 the myth of the Cyclops is all 关于 anger.
和 it has everything to do 与 the lack of depth perception 那 when 你 have 一 eye
versus 二 eyes.
It turns out like the Greeks like 确实 understood
stereopsis 和 depth perception.
There, I couldn't help myself.
In any case.
那's interesting.
So like 这 notion of enrichment.
和 I love 那 in the example 你 gave
of going to the beach 与 a friend 或 与 a spouse
或 someone else 你 care 关于,
it's not 关于 你的 own experience of it.
你 said, not just 因为 你 want to be there,
但 因为 你're actually there,
那's a physical grounds 对于 creating something else.
So it's not 确实 关于 the beach.
It's 关于 what 你 leave the beach 与.
那's right.
和 it's not just memories of the beach.
你 actually both change as a consequence of being there.
Maybe in small ways, maybe in big ways.
但 你've enriched the relationship.
和 so the beach becomes incidental.
When 人们 talk 关于 wanting to go out drinking,
what I wanna know is, is it 关于 the drinking
或 is it the 人们 你're drinking 与?
那's what it comes down to.
Now, I strongly recommend 那 人们 reconsider 那 decision.
I mean, I've heard 你.
二 drinks a 周 is the safe 水平.
I've got it, Andrew.
I've got it.
Yeah, 更多 than 那's probably not a good idea
对于 most 人们.
I'm a zero.
I'm a non-drinker
因为 it's the right cadence 对于 my life.
但 人们 who do use alcohol responsibly,
I'm not.
I wish I were a person
who could use alcohol responsibly.
I'm not, right?
So I don't.
和 I don't use it at all.
但 when 人们 say I'm going to go out drinking,
I mean, I don't know if 那's pleasure 或 enjoyment.
if 那's animal impulse 或 moral aspiration.
I need 更多 information.
I need to know the reason 对于 那.
When 人们 are talking 关于 getting a beach house,
I'm going to get a beach house.
I don't know whether 或 not 那's animal impulse
towards social comparison,
toward actually a scoreboard effect
so I 可以 actually feel like I mean something.
那's all animal impulse.
All it is, 那's just like 你的 troglodyte 大脑
actually saying 你're not good enough
unless 你 have a beach house like old Bill over there,
at the office, right? 但 on the other hand, if 你 tell me, it's like, I got to create bait so 那 my
kids 和 grandkids are here a lot. Okay, now I'm listening. Now I'm actually paying 注意力.
和 so a lot of things 那 人们 会 say, I need a little bit 更多 information such 那 I
可以 categorize it in the right way, whether 或 not 我们're on the right side, 我们're on the animal
impulse side 或 the moral aspiration side, whether 我们're on the pleasure side 或 the
enjoyment side, whether it's actually going to bring happiness. I'm pausing 因为 I have so many questions 关于 这,
但 I want to make sure 我们 touch on the other macronutrients
因为 otherwise I'm going to encourage 你 to give a tutorial
on how to 确实 maximize every single choice in not just my life,
但 listeners' lives.
Enjoyment 方案.
我们 应该 have leisure 方案.
Absolutely.
§05Transcript — part 5
我们 all know 那 一 of the major pillars is social connection
和 relationships, 但 the idea 那 leisure is part of 那
as a substrate 对于 enriching 那些 is obvious once 我们 hear it,
reframes everything. If exercising 与 somebody, 你 know, it turns out to be a way 你 deepen the
relationship, which actually has been my experience 与 a lot of male friends, frankly.
Yeah, totally.
一 of the best ways to get to know somebody, in my experience, is to have an intellectual
conversation 与 them, like 确实 deep dive 与 them, 或 to go do something difficult.
Yeah, yeah. Rob, my producer 和 close, close friend, he's sitting to my left right now.
I mean, 一 of the 首先 things 我们 ever did was like go 对于 a run where he kicked my butt.
和 by the way a Vanderbilt graduate yeah 非常 pleased to see 那 yeah yeah 和 um I don't
recommend 人们 box 但 years ago I boxed 和 I'd spar on Wednesday nights don't recommend it
yes I wore headgear yes I probably took some damage I don't recommend it um 但 你 feel so
close to 人们 那 你 actually tried to hurt 和 they tried to hurt 你 但 与 rules yeah
in it's an amazing it's 非常 primitive yeah 和 yet 你 there's a bond there 那 it's obviously
nonverbal it's a lifelong bond 你 see 那 person the next time 和 it's like 尤其是 if they
played fair 和 they hurt 你 yeah 你're like yeah yeah like 我们 know 一 another yeah i've seen
你 你 know there's a respect 水平 i'm not suggesting 人们 do 这 但 你 added 人们
in memory to a strong experience thus rendering it enjoyable 和 being part of happiness yeah
和 point of fact it wasn't strictly pleasurable 但 那 wasn't exactly the point no yeah no the
together in some way. There's a great book by a guy named Sam Sheridan called A Fighter's 心脏.
He's actually a Harvard grad. I think he was an art major there. His dad was a Navy SEAL. He's a
非常 interesting guy. 和 he has 这 joke 那, 你 know, 那 sparring is like a, it's like a
一 夜间 stand 或 something. 你've like done something 非常 intimate 与 someone 你 barely
know. 和 so it has both a feeling of connection, 但 it's also the illusion of connection. So he
hits it better than I did. Don't run out 和 start sparring 与 你的 friends.
such, 你 know, bonds 对于 life.
My son is a sniper,
scout sniper in the U.S. Marine Corps.
和 这些 are friends 对于 life.
I mean, 这些 are guys
who 会 literally
give their lives 对于 each other,
who looked out 对于 each other
in 非常, 非常 dangerous situations.
和 they were suffering together.
Now, the word compassion
in Latin means to suffer together.
那's what it means,
to be compassionate 与 somebody,
to suffer alongside 那 person.
那's what it comes 从.
和 it's, 你 know,
it has 这, the passion of Christ
in the Christian religion
is all 关于 the suffering of Christ.
那's what it comes to.
和 to have compassion towards somebody to suffer 与 那 person 通过 那.
和 when 你 even induce 那 suffering, as dumb as it is, beating each other up, 你 know, doing, getting 进入 the octagon.
和, 你 know, 那 is what 你're doing is 这 is the experience of compassion, which gets us to a primordial need to move beyond the animal impulse 进入 the moral space 那 actually makes us quintessentially human, 那 makes us fundamentally 不同的 than all the other beings.
It makes us the dominant species.
但 by the way, it also renders us the most miserable
of all 这些 species as well, which is so interesting.
There's some dark 和 terrible examples of 这,
和 sometimes 人们 会 call it trauma bonding,
like the sort of Sid 和 Nancy story.
Like, do they kill each other at the Chelsea Hotel
in like a drug-induced rage?
但 then, like, if 你 watch 那 great movie
与 Joaquin Phoenix 和 Reese Witherspoon, right?
Like, Walk the Line.
Like, their relationship between Johnny Cash
June Carter, right?
Was June Carter Cash, I think was eventually her married name.
It was a contentious 一.
It was the feistiness.
It was the fighting.
They were forged in 这 challenge.
She was divorced at a time when divorce was 确实 frowned upon.
和 she was religious.
和 so there was just a lot of contention.
和 then there's 这 peace 那 they achieve in being together.
但 你 总是 sense 那 it's like 那 there's 这 recognition 那 there's fight in them 和 they've been 通过 it.
和 那's part of – like 我们 tend to – 我们 used to kind of hold up relationships like 那.
Now 我们 like to see everything look perfectly smooth.
Yeah.
Right?
但 这 gets back to like the marriage vows 和 这 gets back to relationships of all kinds.
It's the suffering.
The suffering.
The suffering 你 suffer 与.
I'm going to suffer 与 my wife until I take my dying breath.
It's 因为 我们 have a relationship.
与 你. My God, yes. The 与 is there, the both of 你. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. To be clear.
No, 对于 sure. I mean, it's no walk in the park being married to me. 那's 对于 sure. I mean,
it's a pain 对于 sure, 但 she 会. I mean, 这 is like the bond 那 我们've actually taken 对于
life 和 the, 和, 和 central to the, the, 和 我们 have great enjoyment. It's fantastic. 但 那
enjoyment has everything to do 与 the fact 那 it's pleasurable. It's interesting. It's,
it's fascinating. It's funny. 和 it's also hard. 和 it's also, there's a lot of suffering
和 there's a lot of, it's daggers drawn.
I mean, my wife is Spanish, so 你 have to understand
那 there's a high 水平 of complexity 和 suffering.
和 words per, word density per moment.
Yeah, exactly right.
和 我们 have a 50-50 Spanish 和 English marriage,
which means 那 我们 可以 suffer in 二 languages.
It's what it comes down to.
但 the truth is, 那's what 人们 need to expect.
那's what 人们 need to expect,
那 it's like, okay, let's suffer together, baby.
Come on, honey, let's just bring it on.
和 那's a beautiful thing.
那's 确实 what it means.
和 人们 talk so much 关于 peace 和 ease as the goal.
Yeah.
I'm hearing some of 那, 但 I'm hearing a bunch of other things too here.
I get it.
和 it's particularly true 那 men, they want peace at home.
They do want peace at home.
和 I see 那.
By the way, women want peace at home too.
但 你're not going to get peace all the time.
你 don't want peace all the time.
你 want a full life, fully lived.
你 want to be, it's like the, to be fully alive.
What does 那 mean?
那 means the whole range of 你的 emotions.
你're using all the parts of 你的 limbic 系统.
我们're wonderfully made, Andrew.
和 it's just like, I want the dorsal anterior cingulate cortex to give me 这 sense of suffering 和 grief when I'm feeling social exclusion 或 the sense of loss.
你 know, I want the insula to be highly active when I have 这 sense of disgust 或 whatever it happens to be 或 the amygdala to be active 与 fear 和 anger, et cetera.
I want 那.
I want my 大脑 to work the way it's actually supposed to.
I mean, I want to suffer 和 I'm gonna if I'm actually being fully alive 和 if I'm taking the chances 和 I'm doing the things 那 I actually need to do.
因为 那 is ingrained in the full experience of what human happiness is properly understood.
I'd like to take a quick break 和 acknowledge 我们的 sponsor, AG1.
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So 我们 have the 秒 chapter in the book
那 maybe 我们 write together.
尽管 你're the real writer, I confess,
I've yet to decide I'm a writer.
Which is-
你're good at what 你 do, man.
Oh, thanks.
I appreciate it.
一 chapter 会 be on leisure.
你've told us 那 how 一 spends their leisure time
is a critical window 进入 self.
和 the other 会 be how to suffer 更多
in pursuit of moral aspiration,
但 also how to experience pleasure
in pursuit of moral aspiration.
Absolutely, absolutely.
So 我们've gotten 通过 enjoyment.
Yeah, let's talk 关于 satisfaction.
Yeah.
因为 it sounds 相似的,
但 it sounds like deeper, 更多 pervasive,
更多 like defined as satisfaction.
Yeah, so I mean, again,
和 the definition, everything is in the definitions.
和 一 of the problems 与 happiness is 那 everybody 可以, they define it in 不同的 ways, etc.
So I try to stay out of the linguistic wars.
It's like consciousness.
No neuroscientist 确实 wants to talk 关于 consciousness anymore 因为 it's like, it's so circular.
对于 sure.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
It's being aware of the fact 那 你're aware 因为 你're aware 或 something.
What?
Many billions of dollars 和 euros in particular.
那's a joke aimed at 一 Swiss scientist in particular.
你've read Michael Pollan's new book.
I haven't read the new 一.
A World Appears.
但 I think the world of him.
He's fantastic.
和 the new book is actually the book to read
对于 人们 who are not either philosophers
或 neuroscientists 或 even psychologists, 对于 那 matter,
on A World Appears is what it's called.
I've 从不 met him, 但 I love the book.
I think it's absolutely fantastic.
和 at the end of the book, 你 know a lot 更多
和 你 still don't understand what consciousness is.
你 don't understand what it is.
It's a lot of things.
It's many things.
§06Transcript — part 6
sentience 和 it's feelings 和 it's awareness of others 和 it's awareness of yourself.
和 我们 don't know where it is in the 大脑. 和 oh my goodness. 但 the truth is 那 那's 一
of the problems in the field 那 I have too, which is the definition of terms. 和 satisfaction
is 一 of 这些 things. Satisfaction as I define it, as many 人们 define it, is the joy 那 你
get 从 an accomplishment 之后 struggle. 那's satisfaction. So the satisfaction 那 你 got
was proportionate to the suffering 那 actually went 进入 getting 你的 PhD 和 mine too right 和
they were like oh man I'm not doing 那 again 但 it was so awesome 和 你 know I think 关于
但 it was so awesome yeah 那些 那些 are the key words I know 和 it's like I talked to 你 know my
kids my kids in the military yeah they're I mean being a marine is no 你're not screwing 大约
和 你 know I saw what my kids went 通过 和 对于 你 know the infantry 训练 battalion 和
the scout sniper indoctrination, 或 my daughter is, 你 know, 和 she's an officer. She actually
had got her 首先 salute 从 her brother. He's 6'5 和 she's 4'11. It was awesome. 你 know,
actually, 你的 older brother has to salute 你. It's great. So cool. Yeah, it's great. 但, 你
know, it's, it's, 人们 talk when I say, 你 know, tell me the story of 你的 success. I mean,
the 人们 make jokes 关于 it. 你 remember David Koch, 一 of the Koch brothers, 你 know,
of Koch Industries in Wichita, Kansas. 和 he was a 非常, 非常 funny guy. 和 he used to say,
人们 say, how did 你 get so rich? 和 I say, well, it started when I was 12 years old 和
I found an apple 和 I was shining it up 和 I had paid a nickel 对于 it 和 somebody offered me a
dime. 和 I said, well, it's a hundred percent profit margin. So I went back 和 bought 二
apples 和 I doubled my money 和 I started doing 这 every 天 和 every 周, doubling my money
和 doubling my money. 和 你 可以 do the math 周 之后 周 和 year 之后 year. 和 finally,
my father died, left me a hundred million dollars. 那's good. 和 the reason 那 那's funny is
the parahippocampal gyrus 和 it makes 你 feel like 那 surprise, like in every joke, right?
但 the reason it's funny is 因为 real satisfaction 从 你的 accomplishments comes
从 the struggle, not 从 the accolades. 那's what it 确实 comes to 因为 你 earned it 和
human beings are made to earn their success. 这 is the reason 那 they'll convince themselves
那 when somebody's giving them absolute utter largesse 那 they actually earned it in some way.
if 你 want to get to have 你的 career destroyed as a politician go to a bunch of senior citizens
和 tell them 你're getting a lot back 更多 back 从 social security than 你 ever paid in
你的 career is over 因为 你 basically just 你 know flick their parahippocampal gyrus in a
非常 unpleasant way 你 kicked it right so cool i don't like it 和 和 和 so so the truth of
the matter is 那 he was saying 那 因为 the answer 那 人们 are expecting is, I suffered.
和 I had 三 bankruptcies. 和, 你 know, I almost lost my marriage. 和 I had to raid my
kid's college fund. 和 I was afraid. 你 know, like Bernie Marcus talks 关于 the Home Depot,
和 they were down there at the last dollar. 和 it was grim, is how he talked 关于 it. 和 so
那's 确实, 确实 重要. 和 那's 一 of the reasons 那 satisfaction, which is so 重要, 你 know, 我们 got to make
progress. Why arrival leads to frustration, 但 progress toward goals is how 我们're wired.
Purpose in life comes 从 goals 和 direction 和 progress toward purpose 和 goals. 那's
what purpose, where 我们的 purpose in life actually comes 从. 和 so the result of it is 那 我们
need to have 这 sense 那 我们're sacrificing 对于 something, 那 我们're doing something 那's
bigger than who 我们 are 和 我们're willing to give something up. 那's 确实 一 of the great
reasons also 那 when 人们 hit their goals, they get so depressed. It's 因为 there's no
更多 progress. 你 know, it's why Olympic athletes are so 可能 to fall 进入 a clinical depression
之后 they win their, 你 know, their gold medal. 和 my 人们 are so, when they win a billion
dollars, they're like, I guess I need another billion. I guess I need, 你 know, 因为 I'm
not feeling it, man, 因为 我们're actually made 对于 这 progress, 但 the progress entails a
struggle. 和 我们 judge 你的 students, my students. There's no satisfaction 那 comes if they cheat on an exam. 但 if they
work hard 和 get an A, 那's 非常, 非常 satisfying. 和 你 teach 你的 kids 这,
don't eat 之前 dinner. It's not 因为 of nutrition. It's 因为 你 want their
synaptically plastic little brains to register the fact 那, 那 if they come to dinner hungry,
dinner's better. Definitely. 和 你're, 你 tell junior, 你 know, don't eat 之前 dinner
因为 it's unhealthy. 但 if 你 were being honest, 你'd say, I want 你 to suffer.
那's why 你 可以't have a snack. A few years ago, I was out a lot on the internet saying,
你 know, 多巴胺 那 comes 没有 effort 之前 it is 非常 pernicious. 和 I stand behind
那, 但 some 人们 like took the interpretation too far. It in part, an attempt to malign me,
which is fine. Like, 你 know, I'm out there, 你 know, yeah, sure. 那 comes 与 the territory,
但 it's sort of implied. I didn't have the language 对于 it, 但 now I do. Thanks to 你.
It's sort of implied 那 I don't believe in leisure. Right. I don't want to return us to
the 首先 macronutrient in a way 那 distracts us, 但 I think 这 is appropriate now. So
of course, leisure is great, 但 I 会 say leisure is way better when 你've been working
hard. 和 so if 你've been working hard towards something 那 has its own intrinsic reward,
the work itself 可以 become intrinsically rewarding 或 not. There are a lot of things I did in graduate
school 那 I absolutely loved the process. 和 there are some of them 那 like, the only word
对于 it is it sucked. It just, it sucked. All nighters, like 二 天 recording experiments
和 like, just like breathing all 那 isoflurane in the room. 和 it was just like, it sucked.
但 it, 和 it was awesome. 但 there are forms of leisure, like on 那些 Fridays when 我们
finished 那些 experiments, I 会 drive out to 这, 这, 这 orchard outside of Davis where I
did graduate school to winters. 和 I 会 just, 这 会 之前 phones. I 会 just listen to
music in my car. 和 I just felt like I felt like I'd been transported in time. 那's right. 和 I
felt connected to all the 人们 who had worked a hard 周 和 then were just listening to music
in their car. 和 then eventually my girlfriend 和 I 会 drive out there. Now I could share
那 experience 与 her. 和 she was a scientist 和 working 确实, 确实 hard too, arguably
even harder than I was 因为 the experiment she was doing took yet another 水平 of persistence
那's 确实 remarkable.
So it's not 那 saying 那 effort has to be there
之前 多巴胺 is like means 你're a 一 track,
like self-optimization junkie.
It's just an 重要 pie slice
in being like a good human being in my opinion.
So I kind of bristle at the idea
那 a concept like 那 could be construed
as anti-pleasure,
但 in a sense it's 确实 like there's something 关于 the human
心智 where 我们 want, 我们 hear 一 piece of 这. 我们 hear 关于 一 pie slice 和 我们 say, oh, so 那
means like leisure doesn't exist 对于 这 person. 但 what I love 关于 你的 work 和 what 你're
telling us today is 那 it's 确实 关于 the complete pie chart. It's not 关于 any 一 moment.
和 it's working 与 我们的 brains, working 与 我们的 biology. 我们 are built to earn 我们的 rewards. 我们 are built to earn
我们的 success. 我们 have no concept of what anything is worth if 我们 don't earn 我们的 success. 和 the
reason 那 我们 want to do 那, 我们 think 那, 你 know, 那 a Snickers bar gives 你 pleasure.
No, no, no, no, no. It's actually the 神经化学物质 那 are giving 你 pleasure,
那 are actually making 你 feel 这 pleasure. It just happens to circuitously 通过 the way
那 the 大脑 works. Getting 你的 PhD didn't give 你 pleasure per se. There was nothing 关于
the piece of paper. It was actually the knowledge 那 你 had done 这 thing. 和 so 一 of the
greatest secrets to excellence 和 success in 人们's lives is the sense of earning it. 和
和 那 means making peace 与 suffering, making peace 与 pain, making peace 与 struggle.
It's what it comes down to.
Now, 那 doesn't mean, 和 一 of the biggest mistakes 那 strivers 经常 make is 那 it's all struggle.
你 remember the not discredited 但 complicated Walter Mischel marshmallow experiments at 你的 fine institution.
和 the follow-up, the kids who ate the marshmallow within five 分钟, they had no impulse control.
和 they went on to actually get worse grades 和 worse jobs, et cetera.
和 the 20% of the kids in the marshmallow experiment
who were able to not eat the marshmallow
和 they got the 秒 marshmallow,
they did much better in life.
和 so the whole point was the deferral of gratification
is a big signal of how well 你're actually gonna do.
一 of the biggest problems 那 strivers have,
和 I'm speaking to all the strivers watching us right now,
is 那 they don't know what their marshmallow even is.
和 so they're just gonna wait their whole lives.
和 那's not what 你've been saying.
那's not what 你're talking 关于.
从不, 从不 drive out to Winters, to 从不 actually listen to the music, to 从不 actually
wait 对于 the 秒 marshmallow 和 enjoy 那 秒 marshmallow. 那's a mistake too. 那's
actually a huge mistake. 但 the whole point is 我们're trying to find the golden mean between
earning it 和 not earning it. 那 doing enough 和 struggling enough 和 then actually taking the
reward 和 then starting again. 这 actually feeds 进入 a lot of the experiences 那 人们
have. A big part of my work is how to age well, 关于 how to get happier as 你 age.
Yeah, do tell.
Yeah. I mean, it's super 重要. 和 part of the reason is 因为, man, I'm no spring chicken.
和 这 is me search, right? 对于 all of us, 我们're 总是 doing me search instead of 研究.
和 so I want to know, how 可以 I be happier at 60 than 50? 和 now I want to know how I 可以 be
happy years down the road at 70 instead of 60. I want to know how to retire. 和 so when I'm giving
人们 advice, I'm doing public education 关于 这些 things, it's 因为 I've been trying to
answer 这些 questions 对于 myself. Retirement is a classic case of screwing up the satisfaction part of happiness.
It's like, I'm going to work 和 work 和 work 和 work. I'm going to be a miserable SOB.
和 then at 65, I'm going to stop completely 和 just goof 大约. 那's the recipe 对于
misery all the way 通过 因为 it was no fun. It was all suffering 没有 reward. 和 then it's
all reward 没有 suffering. 那's neurophysiologically unsound, 但 it's also
philosophically unsound. It doesn't actually make sense. So I help 人们 retire constantly,
但 I also try to help them have the best life as they do to move 通过 the course of their
careers, do what they're actually naturally good at. 那 is both hard 和 rewarding,
which changes over the course of 你的 career. There's a lot of 研究 on 那,
但 it all gets 进入 how 可以 I maintain satisfaction? The mystery comes when 我们
actually do get the thing 那 我们 actually want. 和 then 我们 find 那 it leaves us 寒冷.
那 seems like a real tyranny.
Like Mother Nature had a trick up her sleeve, which kind of she did.
I mean, 你 actually, 人们, if I 可以 get 那 watch, 那 car, 那 marriage, then I'll be happy forever.
I mean, guys 会 say to women, 你 know, if 你 marry me, 你'll make me happy forever.
那's not right.
你 know, it doesn't matter what she says when 你 propose.
It doesn't matter what she says on her wedding 天.
It's what 你 say to each other over the course of 你的 entire marriage 那 actually 会 give 你 net-net the best 可能 life.
那's why Mick Jagger's saying, I 可以't get no satisfaction.
He 应该 have sang, I 可以't keep no satisfaction.
和 那's a whole 不同的, as 我们 say in Seattle, a whole nother problem, mystery.
Is 那 a Seattleism?
I guess so.
I don't know.
I was like, yeah.
There's so many articles out there 和 websites 和 blogs 那 are like the six things 那 人们 say on their deathbed.
Nobody says, I wish I worked 更多.
I don't know.
My dad, he's in his early 80s 和 he's still rocking 和 he loves his work.
Right.
和 he loves his wife.
Right.
和 he loves his kids.
和 he loves his coffee 和 he loves his meditation 和 he loves life.
He's a happy guy.
和 he 会 say like work has been a, he's giving, he's still working, consuming ideas, giving lectures.
I think he 会 say he was 确实 glad he worked as much as he did, not 更多 than 那.
但 这些 lists to me are not useful, whether it's 关于 work 或 whether it's 关于 anything,
因为 the lists to me are 确实 关于 the question, when I look back on my life, I want to be able to say blank.
Okay, I feel like 那 analysis peeled back to like, when I finish my college degree, I want to be able to say,
all right 那 可以 inform some choices going forward make good friends got enriched myself
intellectually etc etc didn't 你 know got healthier as opposed to 更少 healthy 你 could
do 那 但 it's not I feel like it's the wrong question yeah like it's the wrong thing when I
look back on my life I went like how 关于 now yeah 和 the decisions 你 可以 make today 这
周 这 month 这 year 因为 那's how 你 end up in a place where 和 let's face it most
可能 那些 last moments they could be 非常 peaceful 和 beautiful 但 你 don't know right
So 我们 imagine 这 kind of like 之前 the curtains close moment 那 some 人们 get, 但 I don't think most 人们
get 那. I've watched 人们 die. It's not, it's usually not like 那. It's, I feel like 我们 tend
to integrate 我们的 水平 of satisfaction, pleasure, lack, the pain, et cetera, on a much shorter time
scale. So is there a better set of questions 和 answers 那 我们 可以 come up 与 对于 living in the
now so 那 我们 are steering right 通过 the 更多 of the time 那 我们 have between now 和
whenever it is 那 那 curtain closes.
Yeah, 对于 sure.
There's a lot actually on 这.
和 it touches on a couple of 不同的 things.
Now, to begin 与, 这 确实 gets 进入 the third macronutrient, which is meaning.
和 what are 我们 doing to understand the meaning of 我们的 lives?
Ultimately, 那 knowledge is the most 重要 macronutrient, the most philosophical, the
most, I mean, it gets closest to the, 你 know, the problem, the hard problem of consciousness
to use Chalmers, his formulation on 这, et cetera, et cetera.
但 there's a lot 那 goes 进入 it.
这些 are, David Brooks talks 关于 no relation,
friend, 但 no relation.
He talks 关于 resume versus eulogy virtues.
和, 你 know, it's true.
你 know, it's probably better
if 你 don't imagine 人们 at 你的 funeral saying,
he had 5 million miles on Delta.
I mean, it's probably not.
那's some friends who are, like,
确实 进入 their points on their cards.
I know.
It's a video game.
It's an adult-ish.
Yeah.
§07Transcript — part 7
They're trying to count.
They're a scoreboard.
和 part of the reason is 因为
那's a sense of satisfaction.
你 know, they're trying to count.
trying to get 那, they want to make progress, progress toward a goal, goals 和 direction,
making progress. 我们're progress oriented animals, which is why the scoreboard is so
重要. The trouble is 那 when, once 你 run up the scoreboard 之后 a certain point,
I mean, 你 die 和 stay dead 和 你 realize 那 nobody actually cares. 和 so if all anybody
talks 关于 is 这, is 这 score, 这, 这 trivial scoreboard, which is frequent flyer miles
或 money in a bank account, right. 或, 或 any of 这些 other worldly things, it's a problem. 和
leads to the 首先 criterion 对于 what actually is going to lead to regret 和 what isn't.
和 那's a deep philosophical thing 那 has a lot of roots in classical philosophy,
但 also a lot of behavioral science behind it as well.
So Aristotle, vis-a-vis St. Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century, he asserted 那 我们 want to be happy.
Okay, fair. 这 is pretty good.
Now, his definition of happiness was beatitudo, which is the luminescence of presence of God, right, to the relationship 与 God.
Other 人们 define it in 不同的 ways who are not traditionally religious, 但 I think everybody 会 agree, yeah, 我们 want to be happy.
He said 那 to do 那, I mean, 你 have a tendency to follow 你的 animal impulses.
So far, so good.
Gets back to an early part of the conversation.
和 he said, 你的 animal impulses tell 你 一 fundamental lie.
和 那 fundamental lie is 那 the following four things, when they beguile 你 和 你 get them, 那 你'll be actually happy 和 你'll be finally satisfied.
你'll finally be there.
那些 four things are money, resources, power, which is influence over other 人们, pleasure, which also is comfort 或 security, right?
或 honor, which means, 你 know, 对于 你 和 me as academics, it's like, hey, 那's Andrew Huberman.
He wrote 那 paper in the journal of, 你 know, seven-dimensional, 你 know, disappearing manifolds
或, 你 know, some academic journal nobody's ever heard of, 但 still academic prestige, admiration,
whatever it happens to be. 那些 are beguiling idols 那 if 你 pursue 那些 things as an end
per se, there's nothing evil 关于 them. They 可以 be used 对于 great good. 但 if 你 use them as an
end per se, 那's when 你'll wind up in trouble. 那's the problem 那 我们 actually get. So they
say, nobody says, I wish I'd worked 更多. What they 应该 say is nobody says, I wish I'd gotten
a little bit 更多 famous. I wish I had had, 你 know, a million 更多 dollars in my 401k 那 I
have no idea what's going to actually happen to it. 那's 确实 what they're saying. 和 so back
up 从 那 和 to, 对于 us to be happier, 我们 need to assess whether 或 not 我们 are serving 这些 worldly idols.
和 那's incredibly good behavioral science 因为 那 is an almost perfect taxonomy of the things 那 我们 actually chase.
I have a game I play 与 my students at HBS.
They don't know what their idol is.
They don't know what it is.
和 again, I got nothing against money.
I think money 可以 be, does wonderful things.
Jobs, opportunity, growth, taxes, philanthropy.
There's nothing wrong 与 power.
Influence other 人们 wielded in a virtuous way.
Pleasure.
I mean, pleasure leads to babies.
So great.
Fame, 你 可以 refract 你的 fame.
I mean, there are lots 和 lots of 人们.
I promise 你, Andrew, there are lots of 人们 pursuing their PhDs right now 因为 of 你的 fame, which is a beautiful 和 a good thing 对于 humanity.
The problem is it 会 hurt 你 if 一 of 这些 things is 你的 primary objective, is 你的 primary goal, 和 你 endow it 与 mythical power.
So I play a game 与 them.
What's my idol?
They don't know.
你 want to play?
Yeah.
I'm playing What's My Idol.
Yeah, I'm a little scared, 但 let's do it.
Let's do it.
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The way to know what 你的 idol is, 和 again, what Aquinas suggests 和 what modern social science absolutely verifies,
is 那, again, nothing wrong 与 这些 things, 但 if 你 pursue 这, 这 winds up being the source of 你的 later bitterness 和 regret.
The reason is 因为 when 你 pursue 这些 things, 你're doing it at cost.
和 the cost is almost 总是 love.
Love is the secret of happiness.
To love 和 be loved is what 我们 want.
和 when 你 pursue something 那's not real, 那's not alive, then 你're sacrificing opportunities to love 和 be loved if 你 pursue it as a goal per se.
但 when 你 know what 你的 idol is, 你'll still make mistakes.
你're still going to mess up.
你're still going to be miserable a lot.
但 你 会 sometimes avoid the error, which is incredibly powerful.
Great.
So the way to play 这 game is to eliminate, 因为 你 总是 do elimination when 你're trying to do 这些 things.
It's much 更多 robust.
It's actually better.
eliminate the idol 那 你 don't have 一 by 一 by 一 it's going to get harder as 我们 go along
it's going to start off 确实 确实 easy i 可以 even make predictions 关于 你 关于 what what
你 会 eliminate 但 eliminate them until 你 until 你've got the last 一 和 那's the 一
那's most 可能 to beguile 你 和 lead 你 down the wrong road so money resources power
pleasure fame 或 adoration of other 人们 你're going to get rid of 一 和 it doesn't mean 你
don't have it. It just means 你're the population average.
Get rid of 一 of 那些.
Yeah, if 你 got rid of money, 对于 example,
你 say, I don't care 关于 it.
那 just means 你're the most average American economically,
which by world standards is unbelievable.
Historical standards is fabulously wealthy.
So 你 said it was money?
Uh-huh.
Power.
Pleasure.
和 pleasure 可以 also be comfort 或 security, right?
或 和 honor, which is prestige 或 fame 或 adoration
或 whatever it happens to be, 或 respect.
和 power 可以 be benevolent too, right?
Totally.
这些 all 可以 be great.
因为 the most virtuous, happy 人们 have 这些 things.
Yeah.
They have a lot of 这些 things.
Yeah.
I don't care much 关于 the notion of, like, honor 和 accolades.
In fact, just as a 非常 brief anecdote, it was right 关于, I'd been tenured 对于 maybe 三, four years.
Yeah.
和 I was struggling financially as a professor, despite what 人们 可能 think 关于 Stanford.
和 I was happy to, 你 know.
I was 一 of 那些, too.
和 so I had a conversation 与 my then chair, 或 was it vice chair?
和 he said, well, 你 know, at some point, 你 know, 你'll be chair. 和 then of the department is rotating chair. I'm still in
这 department, by the way, 我们'll see if I still am at the end of 这 conversation 与 what the
heck. 和 he said, 你 know, it comes 与 a pay 增加. 和 I was like, 确实? 和 I thought
关于 I'd seen what happened to chairs of departments couldn't 专注 as much on science. It's a total meat grinder.
It's a punishment disguised as an honor. It's a punishment to any real scientist, 但 they may,
但 they cloak it 和 they say, no, 这 is service to the department. 和 那's true.
Right. 和 a good chair is valuable.
Some 人们 are exceptional at it.
I have a close friend of mine 从 childhood.
He's a chair.
但 the chair needs certain attributes 那 are 重要.
和 so the response out of my mouth was, how do I make sure I 从不 become chair?
Well, so I think now it's 非常 unlikely I'll be chair of the department.
I'm not 大约 enough.
但 like, how do I make absolutely sure 那 I'm like not like,
like do anything else, anything to not be chair?
By virtue of the fact 那 my dad's a scientist. 和 I grew up seeing a lot of scientists 和 hearing 关于 a lot of luminaries
of science. I heard 这 story 关于 Richard Feynman, the great Richard Feynman, where
apparently, I don't know if 这 is true 或 not, 但 he was elected 进入 the National Academy
of Sciences. 和 I think at the inaugural dinner, he said to someone like, well, what happens now?
和 they go, oh, 你 elect other 人们 in. 和 he goes, wait, so 这 is like a club where 我们
pin medals on each other? 和 he goes, I quit. If it's not true, it's awesome. If it's true,
It's awesome.
Yeah, it's funny.
和 I knew 那 true 或 not, what the story illustrates is 那 like 那些 honors mean nothing.
In fact, the most 重要 thing 关于 a Nobel Prize, I believe, is 那 it allows the winner, in addition to the value of the discovery, 但 it allows the winner to be a great fundraiser 对于 other 人们 at the university.
那's it.
Yeah.
和 so, 和 the discovery, obviously.
但 anyway, so honor doesn't 确实, like I'm not interested in medals 或 things.
So 你 go super famous as a public intellectual.
Is 那 重要?
Does 那 motivate 你?
因为 那's a 不同的 kettle of fish, isn't it?
I 会 go on record saying 那 fame 增加 你的 opportunities exponentially 和 limits 你的 freedoms exponentially.
No, it's not 重要 to me.
Okay.
It's a byproduct of the pursuit of other things.
Are 你 an introvert 或 an extrovert?
Strongly introverted, despite how much I talk.
Got it.
No, no, I get it.
I need a lot of time.
No, I get it.
你 应该 see me when I'm alone.
I talk to 你 even 更多.
No, I'm kidding.
你're probably exhausted 之后 a podcast.
Yeah, I love my team, 但 I interact 与 非常 few 人们 on purpose.
No, I need time to think.
和 I love 人们, 但 I'm 非常, 非常 introverted.
I got it.
Yeah.
I got it.
Okay, so I believe 你.
和 so 你'd go to the normal, the most normal.
你'd be as famous as 你的 mailman.
Oh, 那 会 be awesome.
Okay.
I have the best, like the 人们 那 clean up my neighborhood.
I live in a pretty grungy neighborhood.
My place I do my best to keep 确实 nice.
这些 人们 are like my heroes.
I'm 总是 bringing them Mateina.
They're out there like they're literally scraping up shit 从 animals, 人们.
Like I love 这些 人们.
和 they're so like the ones I know.
They're so happy.
They're so happy.
和 I'm like, man, maybe someday I just like throw on 一 of 那些 orange vests 和 just like disappear 进入 like, 你 know, I won't name a town.
但 yeah.
Don't name the town 或 pretty soon they'll find 你.
Yeah.
So, okay, good.
Good, good.
Now 我们 got rid of the easy 一 in a way.
Money, power, pleasure.
What's next?
那 means it's going to be a little harder
§08Transcript — part 8
因为 all 这些 things have their rewards.
Yeah.
So which 一 do 你 get rid of next?
Pleasure.
Pleasure.
和 then 因为 你're pretty austere.
I mean, look, 你的 book's called 方案.
Yeah, yeah.
I inherited my mom's...
人们 were...
I was...
这 kind of like observer comes on
where 人们 are going to think I'm scripting 这.
Like my mom has a save the world piece of her
那's 非常 real 和 非常 alive in me.
但 the thing 我们 also share, like a desire to save,
change, positive change.
但 the thing 那 comes alive in me
那 I definitely got 从 her is like,
if an emotion like gets to me, if it comes up, it's big.
Like the 人们 I love, I love so big
那 sometimes I think the top of my head's gonna explode.
Like, 或 那 I think like my 心脏's gonna explode.
和 it's not comfortable.
I've gotten better at tolerating 那.
Yeah, 那's great.
Yeah, it makes me emotional
因为 I do think 那 like grief is proportional to love.
So I don't walk out of my podcast studio
where I work 与 my best friends,
not all of them,
但 all of them are my best friends.
It's not, 但 I have best friends elsewhere too.
但 I walk out 和 I don't think,
oh God, like 一 of them 可能 die on the road tonight.
I just think 那 I'm the luckiest human being
on the planet to work 与 这些 人们.
但 it fills me so much sometimes.
It's a lot to-
I tolerate it.
So pleasure is not something 那 I like,
I don't need 更多 intense experiences.
I'm having intense experiences 从 the moment I wake up
until the moment I go to sleep.
Yeah, yeah, 和 你're not a drinker.
你're not a substance user.
I'm not a drinker.
I've 从不 been a drug guy.
So let me say something nice 关于 你的 mom, okay?
So the fact 那 你 kicked out honor
right 从 the 非常 beginning,
你 know what honor addicts all have in common?
They think 那 love is earned.
那's what they all have in common.
They usually have 这 common childhood where they're 确实, 确实 good
at something. I know 你 were a good student 和 你 were a good skateboarder 和 你 were good at
stuff. Wait, wait, to be fair, 之前 the internet comes 对于 me, I was not a 非常 good skateboarder,
which drove me toward academics 因为 I kept getting hurt. I loved the sport. 和 I was a good
student, 但 I was not, I've 总是 had to work hard. Yeah. It's 非常 easy 对于 a lot of young
人们, particularly the young 人们 of 那些 who are of intellectuals 和 excellent 人们 to
learn 从 their parents 那 they get 注意力 和 affection when they do something unusual.
和 the result is 那 their little brains register the idea 那 love is earned.
和 love isn't earned.
Love is a free gift freely given.
Love is a grace.
和 if 你 go 通过 life, particularly in the most plastic part of 你的 psychological formation, thinking 那 love is earned, 你'll surround yourself 与 人们 who 会 make 你 earn their love.
你'll marry somebody who 会 make 你 earn her love.
和 friends who kiss up to 你 和 say, 你've got to earn my love.
和 the result is 你'll go 从 person to person to person.
你'll be a real honor addict. 和 what 人们 have in common is 那 they have a big public life, which happened
to 你, 那 你'll crave the adoration of strangers. 你'll actually crave it 因为
那's the addiction is trying to earn the love even of strangers. 和 那's a big problem.
So who actually made 你 whole? Probably 你的 mom, probably 你的 parents, 因为 they loved
你 unconditionally 和 they probably still do. 那's good parenting. Yeah. They definitely did.
和 they love us unconditionally
和 they definitely do.
和 yeah, I get a zero,
zero 多巴胺 hit 从 人们 saying,
oh, 你're so-和-so, 可以 I get a picture?
It doesn't bother me.
What does fill me is when I get an email
那 somebody is like,
I'm gonna go 研究 neuroscience
或 I did 这 thing 和 it 确实,
I learned 从 so-和-so on 你的 podcast
和 it's enriched my life.
那 feels 确实 good.
Yeah.
因为 then I feel like, okay, great.
At least I know I'm not wasting my time.
Yeah.
Money 和 power.
和 money just means resources.
It's the ability to do stuff.
It doesn't mean 那 it makes 你 更多 whole as a person.
和 经常 the answer 可以 come 从 a sense of identity.
So 经常 a money idol 会 come 从 人们 who grew up rich
因为 那's what it means to be a normal person.
或 they grew up poor 因为 they know how bad it is when 你 don't have it.
So there's all kinds of circumstances 那 可以 provoke 这.
和 power is just like, I want to be in charge.
I 确实, 确实 want to be in charge.
It's not a vice.
It's not a, 你 know, 但 it's 确实 what drives 你.
So which 一 do 你 get rid of next?
Money.
Money, which is 你 become the most,
你 become economically just like 你的 postman.
Yeah, I'd be fine.
Who probably has to.
I mean, I'm saying 那 now 从 a position of financial security.
So it like.
No, no, look, they're in the comments.
Somebody's going to say, 你 know.
Easy to say.
Huberman 和 Brooks are, yeah, like completely full of it
因为 they're, 你 know, right, I got it.
但 I believe 你.
Yeah, 但 to 那些 人们.
你 have been in both situations.
Definitely.
My chairman in San Diego, 之前 I moved my lab to Stanford,
I went to him 对于 a salary 增加.
So in 那 department, 你 could set 你的 own salary,
as long as it wasn't higher than his.
和 I had a lot of grants.
Get him a raise.
What do 你 want to earn?
What do 你 want to earn?
和 I told him, 和 he said, no.
There was no parity in 那 department.
In my department at Stanford, there is.
你 可以't make 更多 than someone 更多 senior than 你.
I said parity is 重要 in certain departments,
not in others.
和 I had a lot of grants.
I'd like a raise of $20,000 这 year which on the 那 was a significant fraction of what i was making 和 um 和 he said
just remember he like did the whole like pivot 和 look thing like 那 like 你're not allowed
to do anymore like like male chairman pivots towards 你 like like sitting 与 his knees
open 和 he like 你 did like 你 可以 从不 get away 与 这 和 he said just remember 你're
gonna make a lot 更少 money than 你 deserve he's talking 关于 then 和 he's like 和 then in the
later part of 你的 career he's talking 关于 himself 你're gonna make a lot 更多 money than
你 deserve. 因为 你're going to have tenure, 你're going to become unproductive. He's actually a 确实 good guy. 和 he was absolutely right. There's Bill Mobley. He's still alive. 和 he's actually a meditator. He's friends
与 the Dalai Lama. So hi, Bill. He was absolutely right. I didn't know how 那 was going to happen
或 anything. I didn't know it was going to happen, 但 it turned out 那 那's true. So if I were
to average my income back across 二 和 a half decades of, yeah, I was perfectly happy to live
in a lab 和 save up a little bit of money to be able to go snowboarding once a month in graduate
school. Like why pay rent? They have showers in the building. They're called monkey cage washers.
你 可以't turn the 热 on.
你 know, it's like they have a bathroom 与 a sink.
Like 人们 thought I was crazy, right?
但 then I didn't have to commute.
Now, granted, I wasn't married 与 kids 或 anything.
So I've lived both ways.
I wouldn't say I've ever been poor.
I want to be honest.
It was austere.
Money's not like, it's great.
It's not 那 fun.
I mean.
It's not 那 much.
可以 你 imagine like having a boat?
No, 那'd be a pain in the ass.
Save me 从 the boat.
No, no, I had to go on a long boat thing 与 my grandfather.
It was torturous.
I want to go out on the boat 对于 a 天.
I like seeing boats on the ocean.
I like scuba diving.
I'm not, no, I, it 会 be nice.
我们're talking extremes here, 但 no, money is not a big motivator.
It's nice to have, 但 I'll tell 你, I'm sort of answering what I think 会 be the next question.
The best thing 关于 having money is 那 I 可以 use it to do things 对于 other 人们.
和 那 falls to me under 这 thing 那 你're calling power, 但 benevolent power.
但 also it gives 你 freedom 和 freedom is nice.
Freedom is nice 和 being able to make,
I'm not just making 这 up,
to make life easier by way of money
或 by way of connections.
我们 were talking earlier 关于,
I know a lot of 人们 who either have
或 know 人们 与 serious medical issues
和 I 可以 connect them to the 一 of 三 人们
那 可能 actually be able to help them
when no 一 else 可以.
Like I've got story 之后 story,
但 I don't take credit.
I just happen to know the best 人们
in 这些 little subdomains
和 it doesn't 总是 work out 那 way. 但 a lot of times they're like, wow. 和 so I'm not the physician. I'm just
the concierge. 但 the fact 那 I have 这 job allows me to do 那. 和 the degree allows me to
do 那. Money doesn't allow me to do 那. It's just my network is insane. 和 the ability to use
it to help other 人们. 和 part of 那 is having 人们 like 你 on 这 podcast.
right like i rob 和 i sometimes talk like i was like i 可以't believe it like 我们 had like Fei-Fei
Li on here it's a colleague of mine at stanford 你 可以 get an 小时 与 her at stanford 但 she
came here 和 talked 对于 三 小时 关于 ai yeah like 和 i 可以 share 那 与 the world
那 或 share what 你're teaching to the world 那 我们're not just having 这 conversation on
a walk yeah 和 我们 可以 share it 与 the world 那 to me is like yeah power now power which is
the ability to be in charge, to be the maestro, to which is to say, I'm going to be in charge.
I'm not going to be subject to the authority of another person.
§09Transcript — part 9
Oh, 那's a little tricky.
Which is, it is tricky, to be sure.
Now, 你're not a vice-filled person.
I mean, 你're a person who's actually, 你 don't have big problems in 这 regard.
但 what Aquinas suggested is 那 when 你've eliminated the others, 那 what 你've found
is something 那 可能 make 你 stumble, 和 那 可能 distract 你 从 the things
那 确实 matter.
the ways 那 你 可以 actually have love in 你的 life. 和 what the funny thing 关于 it is 那 if I
said, okay, just tell me 你的 idol 从 the 非常 beginning, 你 可能 not have eliminated it to
那 particular point. Yeah. 因为 I think 那 it's 确实 an interesting 运动. Obviously
I'm doing 这 与 你 now, 但 I hope 人们 are doing 这 in parallel 因为 那's what
it's all 关于. It's not 关于 me 和 the examples. Yeah, no, it's, it's where 我们 want 人们 to know
their idol. Definitely. Is 那 the words carry, they're loaded words, money, power, honor sounds
actually cool until 你 确实 dissect it 和 then 你 realize it's just as,
你 know, nuanced as the others.
那's the ancient, 那's how Aquinas 会 have understood,
honoris, right?
Which is not virtuous inherently.
Right, so the words 可以 be a little misleading.
I 会 say where I've tended to stumble on the backdrop of all 这
之前 人们, 你 know, it's not 关于 avoiding the comments.
In fact, please comment.
Yeah, totally.
我们 love them all.
和 like 和 suggest, like 和 share.
Don't forget to subscribe.
Hit 那 subscribe button.
但 a big part of it also is 那, of course,
I'm susceptible to like the lure of pleasure,
the lure of, I mean, like I'm human, right?
我们're all wired 对于 it, right?
The place where I've stumbled consistently
is when over-resourced in a particular place,
I don't 总是 think 关于 what the full arc
of requirement is when trying to,
I believe in a benevolent way, share resources.
it's much easier to like connect somebody to somebody.
和 then if it's not going well to be like,
well, 那's their problem now,
as opposed to 确实 continuing to like make sure 那 happens.
So sometimes the big learning 对于 me has been
whenever over-resourced in any area,
whether it's money, 能量, generosity, whatever,
那 I need to be careful
因为 the misperception is 那
因为 there's 更多 than enough of it 对于 me, I 可以 just share whatever's left. 但 there's a
hidden cost. 和 it's the cost of making sure 那 all of 那 goes smoothly. 和 那's a cost
那's hard to quantify. 和 the most painful thing in my life nowadays is actually pulling
back to places where I live. My team knows 这. It's like if I meet someone on the street 和
they are like, they 会 tell me something 和 then they want to tell me 关于, like,
they have a question 因为 they have an uncle who has a stroke. 和 like, I know a 确实 great
person 对于 certain kinds of stroke, I'll give them my phone number.
I've given up, 你 know, like I'll do 这 whole thing.
但 then later, it's 非常 hard to find the time to make sure
那 if they're not getting feedback,
那 I 可以 do the call where I connect the 二.
和 so there's 这, the hardest part 对于 me is I 可以't do it.
和 I got 这 从 my mom.
She sees a homeless person on the street.
和 when 我们 were kids,
我们 discovered she was putting homeless 人们 up in hotels.
Like, 和 我们'd have 人们 living in 我们的 garage.
She 可以't help herself. Now she's better 关于 it, 但 it comes 从 a good place. She wants to fix stuff.
She wants to fix stuff. 人们's suffering is 非常, 非常 hard. 和 by the way, 我们的 vices
are 我们的 virtues. When I'm weak, then I'm strong, said St. Paul the Apostle. 但 also when I'm
strong, then I'm weak. 我们的 strengths 和 weaknesses are opposite sides of the same coin.
The weakness 那 你 have, the idol 那 你 have is also the opposite side of the greatest
virtue 那 你 possess.
So 那's 一 of the reasons 那 我们 shouldn't beat ourselves up 关于 这.
但 我们 need to know what it actually is 因为 那's what 会 actually lead 你 astray a lot of the time.
Now, it's completely 不同的 对于 me.
I 会 kick out power 首先, control 首先.
The 秒 thing I'd get rid of is pleasure.
I'm a 方案 guy too.
I'm 非常 austere, right?
I'm every 天 in the gym 和, 你 know, I eat a 非常 strict diet 和 okay.
The third thing I 会 get rid of is money, resources.
It's not, I mean, 和 again, like, let's watch the comments light up.
I got it.
但 what does 那 leave?
那 leaves honor.
和 the truth is, I want 人们 to love me.
I want 人们 to love me.
I want 这.
It's so, look, dude, I'm 62 years old 和 I still want 那.
It feels good.
It's not even feeling good.
It's like, I'm not a human being.
I'm a human doing.
I'm trying to earn everybody's love.
so dumb 和 I recognize it now. 那's power. Right there is power 因为 I know when I'm
doing it 和 I'm held accountable 对于 it 因为 my wife does not have 这, absolutely have 这.
和 she'll say, 你're doing 那 stupid thing again. Why 会 你 marginalize the 人们 那
你 actually love 对于 the adoration of strangers 对于 Pete's sake? Why 会 你 go do 那 thing
那 人们 确实 want 你 to do? 你 want it 因为 你 want 人们 to appreciate 你 is what
it comes down to. 和 I say, 你're right is the whole point. 和 the whole point is also 那 这
这 is what I do 对于 a living. 这 is what I 研究 和 I'm weak 和 I'm frail in 这 particular right.
和 when I resist 那 idol, when I fight against 那 idol, then I choose the better path 和 I choose the space of moral aspiration.
和 那 space of moral aspiration is to love 和 be loved.
那's what the space of moral aspiration, 那's where it actually takes me.
To love 和 be loved, not by the strangers, not the prestige of the crowd, not the honor 那 comes 从 rising in the hierarchy.
我们're a tropical kin-based species, hierarchically arranged.
The animal impulse comes 从 rising in 我们的 band
of 30 to 50 hunter-gatherers, 你 know, 250,000 years ago.
I mean, 这 is all biologically wired.
但 when I understand 那, then I 可以 actually do what the,
你 know, 那 Dante in Inferno, he talks,
it's arranged 大约 the seven deadly sins.
但 he also talks 关于 the seven, the heavenly virtues,
你 know, 和 so pride, humility, right?
Envy, admiration is what it comes to.
The heavenly virtue of 这 is, of the four, are what 你 确实 want, what 你 truly deeply want in 你的 soul.
To love 和 be loved means 那 你're spending 你的 time on 你的 faith, the love of the divine, 你的 family,
the 人们 那 are biologically 或 by adoption related to 你.
你的 friends, the 人们 那 你 actually choose,
和 serving the whole world 通过 the way 那 你 earn 你的 daily bread,
which is to earn 你的 success 通过 你的 work,
faith, family, friends, 和 work.
和 then only when 你 know 那, 那 idol,
你 可以 pivot to the thing 那 你的 soul actually wants,
the thing 那 你're actually hunger 对于.
和 那's where real satisfaction comes in.
那's where 你 gain the satisfaction 那 你 总是 wanted.
可以 I ask 你 a question 关于 the adoration piece 和 applause
和 那 kind of thing?
So embarrassed.
No, well, I'm embarrassed.
I mean, it's like 那 it is, it's a vulnerable place like reveal 因为 the word is, is, is are tough.
Like power, like, 你 know, like, 你 know, like Huberman admits 那 he is driven by.
No, it's like, I want to power.
I want to help 人们.
No, 你 want to have control over what 你 可以 control.
I got it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
和, 但 so when, let's say 你, 你 give a lecture to a group 那 你 respect them as an audience, whoever happens to them.
Like 你 respect 你的 audience, which is so 重要, 你 know, like.
They love their audience, actually.
Yeah, 和 你 get the feedback 那 你 确实,
like 你've knocked it out of the park.
Yeah, 你 knocked it out of the park.
When 你 go back to 你的 room at 夜间,
are 你 the sort of person 那 thinks 关于 那
和 how great it feels?
或 are 你 thinking 关于 这 一 thing 那 你 said
那 你 wish 你 had done differently?
Are 你 the 一 thing 那 I wish I hadn't said
kind of person, 或 are 你 like basking in it?
No, I'm not basking in it.
I mean, I'm actually self-critical.
what it could be differently 因为 it wears off 和 it's evanescent.
It's like a summer rain.
你 know, they add the adoration of strangers feels good in the moment.
I mean, in neurochemically, it wears off 非常 quickly, of course,
因为 what 你're getting is, 你 know, when 你 look at 人们
who are deeply addicted to success, it looks 非常 much in under 大脑 scans
to 人们 who are actually getting highly glycemic carbohydrate treats
或 even a hit of cocaine, 你 know, 你 win in some little game.
和 obviously 我们 were talking 关于 多巴胺 here,
is 你 actually see it's the same thing,
但 那 doesn't last.
那's not supposed to last.
那's supposed to wear away.
和 the 首先 thing 那 somebody wants
who's an addict is another hit,
whether it's a line of cocaine
或 another round of applause.
So by the time I'm back in the hotel,
I'm like, yeah, okay, they're not 不同的.
It's a drop.
Yeah, yeah, 对于 sure.
Actually, what it comes down to.
但 by the way,
我们've got to know what the solution is to 这.
和 the solution to 这 is not to say,
okay, I'm a horrible human being.
但 it's actually to pivot to choosing the path of the man 那 I want to be.
你 know, I don't give in to the animal impulse to stay under the covers past 4.30.
The man 那 I want to be is down in the gym by 4.45.
4.45 a.m.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
那's right.
Yeah.
Awesome.
I mean, the man 那 I want to be when I'm either thinking 关于 something I did wrong
和 I'm beating myself up 或, 你 know, wishing there was another round of applause
is somebody who's deep in prayer. 那's the man 那 I want to be. 因为 I do know 那 my metaphysical fitness
depends on 这. 和 那's a choice 那 I 可以 actually make.
I have a question 关于 who 我们, I don't want to say idolize, 但 among humans, 可以 你 name
人们 alive 或 dead 那 sort of embody 或 collectively sort of embody who 你 aspire to
in 那 category.
因为 一 thing 那 I realized
in 这 discussion 大约 power
和 I'm not trying to soften anything 大约 那
is I've 总是 had 这 list of 人们
whose careers 和 art 和 music 和 stuff I 确实 admire.
和 in looking over 那 list,
I try 和 sometimes see the 通过 lines.
§10Transcript — part 10
和 I 可以 tell 你 那 almost all of them
brought together unique things based on their past,
their circumstances, et cetera,
to change the game.
To me, 那's kind of the ultimate.
In 我们的 business, 人们 think differently.
The paradigm change.
Yeah.
It's like to change the game.
和 对于 me, 这 is a 非常 重要 time-space dilation
where I 可以 look back on the history of science
和 a couple of neurobiologists who were there at the beginning,
like Ramón y Cajal, 你'd say he changed the game
因为 he kind of made the game.
He created the game, basically, slicing up brains
和 understanding function.
但 a few 人们 came along, even in my career,
in the time of my active lab career.
和 I was like, they 确实 changed the game.
和 then I asked myself,
how 和 why did they change the game?
和 你 realize 那 every technique is fleeting
因为 it gets replaced almost 总是, right?
和 so 你 start to realize 那,
oh, like it was 总是 这 unique kind of like
artist, scientist, poet intersection.
和 I realized like, oh, 那's the thing.
There's 人们 那 are like outside the box
influence of things. Striving 对于 那 is way 更多 重要 to me than quote unquote power.
It's like to be able to say like, I did it not my way, not their way, 但 I did it my way, period.
Like a unique expression 那 could only have been me coming out of me. 和 I don't, 和 so
I'm not in competition 与 some structure 或 与 other 人们. 那 to me is above the four
idols 那 你 describe.
No, I get it.
I completely do.
因为 it's like,
那's like winning.
那's what 你 admire.
那's what I 确实 admire.
那's kind of like an ideal type.
那's what it actually means
to be successful.
那's what it means
to be a success.
和 那's what excellence
means to 你.
那's the personification
of excellence is actually
那 kind of intellectual
entrepreneurship.
Yeah, it's almost like
it moves 从 the,
因为 你 said like to lead.
I actually am not concerned
与 leading.
I also didn't want
to be a chairman, right?
Like I don't want to run the business. It's my podcast.
I let someone else do 那.
He's way better at it than I could ever be.
What I'm interested in is being outside of 那,
但 still ethically completely free.
Yeah.
Like, I 可以't lead 因为 I 可以't show anyone
how to be me 因为 they're them.
Yeah.
I 可以 show them how to,
I 可以 get some ideas 关于 how they 可以 be them,
但 那's like an internal process 对于 them.
So 那 to me is like the ultimate.
When I think 关于 Ramón y Cajal is a good example,
who, by the way, the greatest neurobiologist of all time ever by huge, huge margin.
Also was like 确实 进入 weightlifting.
He was an artist.
Like he was an incredible,
like he drew images of the 大脑
和 inferred 从 那 function 从 dead 组织.
Amazing, amazing human being.
Like he's an N of 一.
Yeah.
但 it was the confluence of his interest
in physical 运动 和 neuroanatomy
和 art 那 made him Ramón y Cajal.
No 一 else 可以 do 那, right?
Like, so I don't want to be like him.
No, I got it.
因为 he did it the best. Like, why 会 你 want to be like him? Boring. 你 want to be excellent like
him, 但 as Andrew Huberman. Exactly. To me, the unique expression 和 like, 你 know, 我们'll,
I think 我们'll eventually get to notions of like, not notions, 我们'll talk a little bit 关于 God
和 faith. Cause 那's actually where 你 和 I connected in person 对于 the 首先 time was talking
at Stanford 关于 science 和 faith. 非常 openly. 非常 openly. 但 那 to me feels, I could be
misinterpreting the message, 但 I feel like 那's what God wants 对于 all of us, whether it's
和 in the 不同的 domains of life.
Yeah.
和 of course, adhering to ethics,
like there are rules, there are structures
我们 have to obey within 那,
但 我们的 unique expression,
I feel like 那's why 我们're here.
Yeah.
I tell myself 这 anyway.
No, like I completely agree 与 你.
和, 你 know, so 人们 经常 ask,
so who's 你的 hero?
I don't know.
I don't know.
My dad, 你 know.
你're like Jesus.
你 say Jesus.
Jesus, yeah, I know.
It's like, I mean, it's like, who's 你的 hero?
I mean, Jesus is the master, 但 the hero is like the hero.
No, it's not like some sort of hero's journey,
some Jungian, 你 know, archetype 那 我们're talking 关于 here.
I struggle 与 那 as well,
但 I do see 人们 那 I deeply admire precisely 对于 这 reason.
So somebody I 确实 admire, the guy in my field,
the social scientist par excellence is James Q. Wilson.
James Q. Wilson.
James Q. Wilson, who won the Congressional Medal of Honor
which is pretty hard to do as a social scientist.
Is he still alive?
No, he died in 2012.
和 he was the greatest political scientist of the 20th century.
和 somebody I knew, he sat in on my dissertation defense,
which went 非常 poorly.
I mean, it was rough, man.
I had 二 Nobel Prize winners in economics 和 James Q. Wilson.
I was super nervous, 和 it was not a great dissertation.
It got signatures.
那's the scoreboard effect on 那.
那's all I 可以 say.
你 passed.
那, 你 know, he had written monumental books. He had done works. He had written a great book
called The Moral Sense. 那 was the 首先 time 那 a social scientist had actually used the
tools of empirical social science survey-based 数据 to understand the moral sensibilities,
the complex moral sensibilities 那 they actually possessed 和 just quantifying it.
和 I read 那. I said, I just want to do 那. I want to do 那. I don't want to be James Q.
Wilson, though. I want to be Arthur Brooks, 你 know, 和 doing it in my own way. 和 he said,
said, 你 know, nice try. 你're going to be fine. When 你 need something, give me a call.
和 so some years later, I was an assistant professor at Syracuse at the time. 和 I was,
I wrote my 首先 commercial book, my 首先 trade book. 和 it was 关于 charitable giving.
和 it was, it was, it actually changed my life 因为 the president read it 对于 some odd reason
和 talked 关于 it. 和 then suddenly I was, my career was changed forever as a result of 那,
对于 better 和 对于 worse. 但 when I was working on it, I wrote to James Q. Wilson 和 I said,
会 你 read 这 manuscript?
和 he said, sure.
I sent it to him.
和 he said, 你 know, I was going to write a book on 这,
但 你've written, I don't have to.
I'll write the foreword.
Awesome.
Unbelievable.
Yeah.
Unbelievable.
Later, he recruited me to be the president
of the American Enterprise Institute
因为 he was on the board of 那.
和 he was on the board until he passed away.
和 then I spoke at his funeral.
I had the honor of speaking at his funeral
at the Memorial Chapel at Harvard
where his funeral was held.
和 it was just 这 guy.
一 of a kind.
和 I want to be a social scientist too,
但 not just like him,
not even studying the same things 那 he does,
但 to have 这 intense curiosity
和 using the tools of science
completely in the public interest.
那's what I want to do.
和 so 那's what inspires me.
So my hero, I guess,
但 it's the admiration 那 I have
因为 he was fully alive.
He was fully alive in the way 那 I think
那 it was his destiny to be in all of us.
Like everybody watching us 和 listening to us has got their thing.
那's what 我们的 destiny is, to actually find 那 thing 和 be truly excellent 和 use it to serve.
Be as excellent as 你 可以 possibly be in being a drywall hanger 和 being a cook at a restaurant 和 being a college professor.
God forbid being a politician in the public interest, in the private interest, in showing 人们 那 这 is an expression of 你的 love.
你 see, in 这 way, it's godly in 这 way.
你 know, in the book of Genesis, it's, 你 know, God created heaven 和 earth.
那 was his gig.
那 was his job.
和 it was an expression of his love.
这 is what 你 和 I 可以 do.
这 is what 你 do.
这 is, by the way, 你're popular 因为 你're good at 你的 job, 对于 sure.
但 因为 你 want the best 对于 everybody, 因为 这 podcast is an expression of Andrew
Huberman's love.
那's why it's successful.
和 everybody 可以 be successful in their way,
可以 be, 你 know, have their own Huberman podcast,
not in podcasting necessarily,
by actually having it be an expression of 你的 love,
love 对于 humanity 通过 the way
那 你're earning 你的 daily bread.
那's the quintessential expression of excellence
§11Transcript — part 11
in my view.
Does 那 accord 与 yours?
非常 much so.
和, 你 know, it occurs to me like, 你 know,
和 maybe I'm a little bit bothered by 这 word power.
Yeah.
和 I'm striving 对于 it to not be misconstrued,
但 if, no, no, no, no, I just, I mean, 但 I'm embracing it today.
但 what, to me, the ultimate win I realized a few moments ago is like what I'm 确实 trying to do in 这 podcast thing is I love learning.
和 when I find something 那 I think 可以 be of use to 人们, I teach it 因为 what's most satisfying to me is if 人们 change their behavior 和 it leads them to a better place mentally, physically, 或 both.
Right.
和 then they also understand why it did 那.
Right.
和 then they pass it along.
Like, 和 there's no need 对于 attribution in 那.
No.
Right.
There's no need 对于 attribution.
和 I hope 那, like, I have a few friends who are actors, a few friends who are musicians,
和 I have to imagine 那 they love acting 和 playing music.
和 那些 sorts of 人们 provide incredible enrichment to my life.
I love music.
I love film 和 as a consumer.
但 I've heard them say things like, yeah, 你 know, like, 你 可以 transport somebody.
和 I think ultimately 那's what it's 关于,
is like I think 那 我们 do at 我们的 best,
I think 我们 all wanna find the thing 那 我们 love to do,
put it out there, 和 I think 我们 have 这 sense
那 it could possibly ripple 通过 time 没有 attribution.
To me, 那's like the ultimate power, right?
Totally, totally. I wanna create happiness teachers.
I want 人们 to go be teachers 因为 那's leverage.
I want a better world.
I wanna lift 人们 up 与 这些 ideas.
I 可以't do it by myself. Well, the only reason 我们 have like the microphones 和 the cameras are here, right? Is
to ripple it out further. Totally. 这些 are literally, 你 know, they literally amplify
things, right? So, 但 yeah, the best way to amplify 通过 space is the internet.
Right. The best way to amplify 通过 time 可能 be the internet, 但 the way to 确实
reinforce 那 whole thing is to teach 人们 things, I believe, in a way 那 they understand
the process underneath so 那 a little bit of it. Right. So 那 they 可以, 和 they pass both
along. 这 is why I think like, cause nowadays, like I could go on any website 和 just go,
what are the 10 top things 那 人们 on their deathbed say are keys to happiness? 和 I 可以 get
a list, 但 人们 choose to listen to the mechanics of it 因为 there's something 关于
the human 大脑, I'm certain 那 when 我们 understand a bit 关于 the mechanics 那 gives
rise to 那 thing, 那's 我们的 buy-in. 那's the cost of admission. 和 then it becomes worth
something. 那's the effort 那 comes 之前 the award. Yeah. Well, 你 know what they say in medical schools.
they say at the Stanford Medical School,
to become a surgeon,
你 need to watch 一, do 一, teach 一.
Watch 一, do 一, teach 一.
和 the truth is 那 the process of learning,
和 there's a ton of 研究 on how 人们 learn.
和 the way 那 人们 learn best
is 那 they have to learn how something works,
then they have to actually practice it,
then they actually have to teach it.
So my dad was a math professor.
He was a brilliant biostatistician.
I 一 time watched him as a math professor
giving an advanced calculus lecture
和 90 分钟, no notes.
和 I was old enough 那 I had admiration 对于 him.
I was in my 20s.
It was 之前 he died.
He died young, 但 I was still in my 20s
和 he was still going.
和 I said, dad, I was like,
那 was a virtuoso 表现.
How'd 你 do it?
He said, I've done it hundreds of times.
和 he said, the process is simple.
你 learn actually what's happening.
你 look at the proof.
你 admire the science.
和 then 你 actually do a ton of problems.
和 then finally 你 explain it over 和 over
和 over 和 over again.
和 the same thing is true 对于 golf.
和 the same thing is true 对于 speaking Spanish.
Same thing is true 对于 understanding how to live a better life.
你 need to know the science.
The reason 那 I'm so fascinated 与 the science 和 I want to talk 关于 it in my podcast every 周 is like it's so cool when 你 understand the science.
Then 你're 更多 可能 to change 你的 habits.
和 then 你're 更多 可能 to spread it 和 share it 与 other 人们.
In which case 你 会 be a virtuoso in it 和 你'll actually keep the cycle unbroken.
那's magic.
那's like it's a complete miracle 那 那's actually how 我们 do it.
和 我们 have 这 moment, 这 miraculous moment where 你 和 I 可以 actually talk 关于 serious science.
I mean, 这 is not a doctoral seminar at Stanford 或 Harvard, to be sure.
但 我们're talking 关于 the real thing.
和 人们 who watch 这 are like, yeah, 那's like, 你 know, they're learning some things.
和 they're going to go to PubMed.
和 我们're going to have show notes 和 the whole thing.
和 then 我们 talk 关于 it.
Here's how 你 use it.
Okay, so when 你 go to the beach, make sure 那 你're going to a beach 与 friends.
和 here's 你的 book is called 方案 对于 a Reason 与 several hundred pages of footnotes, right?
Now go share it.
你 know how many times 人们 have told me, hey, 你 know what 关于 coffee?
你 应该 wait 对于 90 分钟 因为, 你 know, the caffeine molecule blocks the A2 adenosine 受体.
和 你 won't get to crash at 2 in the 下午.
I'm like, yeah, I know where 你 got 那.
I know where 你 got 那.
你 got 那 从 Andrew.
和 没有 attribution 因为 they don't know they got it 从 你.
is better. The world is better. 那's how 我们 可以 bless the world 与 what 我们 actually do.
和 那's so great. I'd like to take a quick break 和 acknowledge 一 of 我们的 sponsors,
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So 我们 got 通过 enjoyment, satisfaction, 和 meaning.
我们 got 通过 enjoyment, satisfaction, not meaning.
我们 have not gotten all the way 通过 meaning.
Yeah, 我们 haven't gotten 通过 meaning.
So tell us 更多 关于 meaning.
So 我们 got the idols.
Yeah, yeah, 我们 got the idols.
So 那些 are the things to be aware of.
那 会 block 你的 satisfaction, 那 they promise satisfaction they don't deliver.
They won't deliver the satisfaction 那 你 seek, 但 你的 大脑 tells 你 那 they 会.
那 会 put 你 on what 我们 in my community call the hedonic treadmill.
Hedonic simply means feelings 或 in 你的 vernacular is activity of the limbic 系统.
和 the treadmill means 那 the limbic 系统 resets 因为 emotions are not there to give 你 a nice 天.
They give 你 a set of signals 关于 threats 和 opportunities so 你 可以 react.
和 they reset immediately.
你 总是 think they're going to last forever.
So 你 have an incentive to either avoid 或 approach things.
这 is the, 你 don't see it much anymore, 但 there used to be a bumper sticker out there 那 said 那 the person who dies 与 the most toys wins.
Yeah, right.
It's 那 一, which reminds me 关于 quantification.
可以 I share 这 与 你?
Yeah, yeah, please do.
It's not my original idea, 但 Anna Lembke, Dr. Anna Lembke at Stanford.
She's been on, I've had her on my podcast 和 yeah, she's fantastic.
Yeah, she's amazing.
She told me 那 there's something interesting.
一 particularly interesting lens on any behavior is whether the person tends to quantify 那 behavior 非常 carefully 和 kind of covet the thing.
She said addicts 会 like constantly check back 和 see how many like pills they have, how many bags they have, how many 人们 who are obsessed, perhaps even addicted to making money 会 constantly check how much they have.
Check their portfolio every single 天.
cloaked as feeling as the need to feel safe, 但 it has nothing to do 与 那. It's the limbic
系统 is 非常, 非常 good at charting profits 和 losses in whatever context, like making lists,
quantification. So 我们 have to be 非常, 这 is not a call to not track 你的 sleep 或 something
或 你的 HRV. 但 by the way, it 可以 be a problem. It 可以 be a problem. I check it once a 周.
I check my sleep once a 周 against a subjective quick line in my notebook.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway, it's something 那 我们 don't hear 经常 enough, even in the 神经生物学 crowd, 那 the limbic 系统 loves to quantify.
和 if 我们 get to the extreme of quantification in a given area of life, of behavior, of obsession, it 非常 可能, not 总是, 但 非常 可能 reflects 那 那 healthy behavior has become either an obsession 或 a full-blown addiction, which I find 确实 interesting.
那's so interesting.
非常 interesting.
What are 我们 actually, what is the limbic 系统 actually trying to do 与 那 kind of control 那's expressed 通过 quantification?
从不 experience the drop.
It's like a way of, it's not getting 更多 of.
Right.
It's avoiding 更少 of.
It's in the illusion 那 你're getting 更多 of.
Right.
你're working against losses by telling yourself 你 have 这.
It's based on loss aversion.
It's loss aversion.
Thank 你.
Yes.
It's based on loss aversion.
和 I said, it's funny.
I said, what do 你 mean?
She said, oh yeah, like 人们 who are like addicted to like certain kinds of barbiturates 或 painkillers 或 whatever.
会 like line them up 和 look at them 和 count them.
There's a 非常 pathologic instance of 这,
which is 非常 tragic too,
因为 they 经常 die sadly.
但 一 of the hallmark traits of like true anorexia
§12Transcript — part 12
is 那 这些 reward 回路 become such
那 the aversion of food becomes rewarding,
which is deadly in its ultimate form.
和 人们 与 true anorexia 可以 look at an article of food
和 they have a calculator 那 可以 tell 你
within a 非常 small margin, how many calories, how much fat, how much protein. They're like visual computers
when it comes to food. 和 food aversion, avoiding 那 stuff becomes their, it's like the addiction,
the pleasure 通路 get all inverted 和 it's the most deadly of the psychiatric disorders.
那's an extreme pathological case. 但 she said heroin addicts who 你 会 think 可以't
get their life together 可以 tell 你 exactly how much heroin they have 和 how much they think they're going to get...
They're 经常 非常 good at math.
你 know, they understand, 你 know.
和 so quantification is kind of a hallmark feature
of 这些 rewards, 这些 reinforcement circuitries.
I thought perhaps 那's an interesting point
那 I don't think 我们 discuss enough.
So when I think 关于 whether something is an addiction,
a compulsion, unhealthy 或 healthy pursuit,
like how tightly am I quantifying every little bit of it?
和 thinking 关于 what I've done, like, 你 know.
Yeah, how many articles are on my Vita, 你 know,
whatever, 你 know, 因为 我们 quantify 我们的 success
那 我们 look at the, 你 know,
你're not trying to pat yourself on the back.
你're trying to make sure
那 你're not falling behind.
Right.
I remember 这.
Followers on, 你 know,
I do think the social media platforms
have intentionally brought 这 in.
Yes.
It's not like the number of likes
可以 be reinforcing somewhat.
Number of followers.
但 the number of followers,
人们 are monitoring their 增加 和 降低
和 they kind of covet them.
Yes, absolutely.
和 the rate of change of 你的 followers,
对于 example.
和 the media 会 say like,
so-和-so lost 这 number of followers 或 whatever.
Like it's like a thing.
So I think there's something there 大约 quantification. Wait till 你的 book comes out. Wait till 你 experience the New York
Times bestseller list 对于 the 首先 time. Oh, it's incredible. It's incredible. 你 know Ryan
Holiday, right? 你 ever had him on 你的 show? Yeah, I have not had him on the show. He's great.
和, 你 know, he 一 time he said to me, it's like, I was sure 那 I was finally going to feel
like completely alive. If I someday, he said, I'm going to visualize 那 I'm going to have a number
一 New York Times bestseller. 和 he said, 和 finally it happened. 和 一 周 later,
I got knocked off the list by Trump's kid.
Barron?
Oh, no.
No, I don't know.
I mean, 一 of his sons.
但, 你 know, it's like, I don't know.
和 his whole point is 那 it's so absurd 因为 it's completely arbitrary.
Right.
The metric is arbitrary.
Right.
但 what 你're trying to do is 你're trying to quantify 你的 sense of self.
Am I enough yet?
Am I good enough yet?
Am I enough yet?
和 so on the 一 hand, 你're actually talking 关于 the addiction.
但 一 of the things 那 I see again 和 again 和 again 和 again is 那 人们 are trying to prove to themselves 那 they actually are enough.
和 they don't feel like they are.
和 the way 那 they earn it is actually by looking at the scoreboard.
这 is what a lot of wealthy 人们 do.
It's what a lot of academics do.
It's like, how many, what's his H index?
你 know, like, how high is the H index?
和, oh, yeah, so-和-so is such a big shot.
H index is like 36.
Joke.
和 nobody even knows what 那 means.
Like 1% of the 人们 watching us, 但 你 和 I know what 那 means.
Yeah, 因为 it's 关于 impact, right?
Ultimately, 人们, 或 they tell themselves it's 那.
但 putting a numerical score on something.
I mean, the 大脑 has 回路 那 are pretty much hardwired 对于 counting.
Yeah.
I mean, my dog isn't as smart as my assistant's dog.
He has a herding dog.
They 可以 count.
They know how many 人们 in there.
He has a little miniature.
They look at 你 like 那.
你 look at him like, stop judging me.
His dog is tracking how many in the group are here 和 how many are missing.
那's what makes them 确实 good at their job.
和 那's where they get reward by making sure they're all in the book.
和 here's the interesting part 关于 这, Andrew.
那 function, 那 quantification function, the essentializing function of how much,
那's what 我们're 确实 good at using the left hemisphere of 我们的 brains.
那's 那 whole theory of hemispheric lateralization 那 McGilchrist brought back.
When I was a kid, there's right 大脑, left 大脑 人们.
Right 大脑 人们 are artsy 和 left 大脑 人们 are analytical.
那's not right. 但 the how to 和 what side requires hardcore quantification. 和 那's fundamentally
a left 大脑 function. The right side, 那's complicated. 那些 are complicated problems,
solvable, 但 complicated problems. If 你've got the 数据, the right side of the 大脑 deals
fundamentally 更多 与 complex questions, which don't have quantifiable answers. All they have is
understanding. All they have is intuition. 那's the why side of 你的 大脑, not the how to 和
what side. 和 那's where meaning resides, which is the last macronutrient of 这.
The right side of 我们的 大脑, the love side, the meaning side, the God side, the complex side,
all the problems 那 are most 重要 to 你, 但 你'll 从不 solve. I mean, my car is left
hemisphere. My marriage is right hemisphere. I 会 从不 solve my marriage. 从不. I mean,
之前 我们 stepped in here, my wife texted me, good luck. I love 你. She does. I'm going to call her later. She 可能 be pissed off
at me. I don't know. I don't know. I've been married 35 years, Andrew. I don't know.
I mean, she's Spanish, so it's 确实 complex, 但 你 get my point, right? I do.
但 这 is the thing, 和 这 is the problem 那 我们 face. 你 need an integrative 大脑. 你
get 二 hemispheres 对于 a reason 和 a corpus callosum to connect between the 二 hemispheres.
你 get 那 因为 你've got the, I'm going to go to work. I'm going to earn money. How to
和 what? Why? 因为 I love my family. 因为 I want to create value. 因为 I want to do
something 重要 in the world. Right hemisphere, left hemisphere, right hemisphere. 和 when 那's
cut off 和 when 你're stuck in the left hemisphere, 对于 example, looking at 你的 phone
205 times a 天 和 taking, 你 know, an endless algorithm of useless information 那's fed to 你,
then meaning 会 be absent 因为 你 可以 only assess it on the complex side. 和 那's the
biggest problem 我们 face. 你 want to know the biggest crisis 我们 face? In happiness, it's meaning.
和 那's why. So how 可以 somebody take steps to enrich the amount 和 the type of,
the array of meaning in their life? 你 和 I have done both a lot of work in the world of addiction,
personally 和 professionally. 和 addiction is unbelievably interesting. It's endlessly
fascinating how the human 大脑 is captured. 和 一 of the things 那 你 find is when 人们
finally are not in the grip of addiction, there's 三 things 那 have to happen. Number 一 is
they get pissed. 那's what all addicts do. They get pissed 和 they rebel. 和 they're like,
no, no 更多. 你've ever seen, 你 know, 你've seen 人们 in 12-step programs 和 they're like,
they 可能 laugh 关于 the crazy things 那 happened to them, 但 they finally, they're like,
like, no, no 更多.
I'm not going to put up 与 这 anymore.
你've got to get pissed 和 rebel.
The 秒 thing 那 they do is 那 actually they understand something 关于 the mechanism
of becoming de-addicted.
和 那's 不同的 in 不同的 ways.
你're addicted to gambling.
你're addicted to pornography.
If 你're addicted to alcohol, 你're addicted to drugs.
There's 不同的 mechanisms 对于 becoming de-addicted.
和 of course, 那's 非常 complicated 和 非常, 非常 hard.
和 it requires science 和 clinical practice, et cetera, et cetera.
但 the last part is actually the most difficult, which is living in a new way, living 与 你.
你 know, it's like it's 一 of the things 那 alcoholics 总是 do.
They 总是 do 这 is they move.
They 总是 move.
和 they're like, dude, if I move, it's like all 这些 losers 那 are 大约 me.
和 I'm not going to see any of 那些 人们.
和 I'm not going to be living upstairs 从 a liquor store.
和 对于 God's sake, moving is going to do the trick.
I'm going to change my circumstances.
和 of course, it 从不 works 因为 the 首先 thing 那 jumps out of 你的 suitcase is 你 与 你的 alcoholic 大脑.
那's the problem.
和 so 你 have to learn to live 与 你 is the hard thing 那 actually comes 从 这.
我们 are deeply, deeply, deeply addicted.
我们're deeply technologically addicted.
我们're hooked 进入 这 thing.
我们 all know 这.
你've talked 关于 it ad infinitum.
So have I.
Jon Haidt, who's been on 你的 show, has talked 关于 the affliction 那 我们 actually have.
那's what 我们 have to do.
My work is fundamentally 关于 how to rage against the machine to get pissed off enough. 和 even 更多
than 那, it's fundamentally 关于 how to live 与 你, how to live differently. 因为 when
你 live 与 你, then 你're in the right hemisphere of 你的 大脑. 和 你 have to have
right hemispheric experiences, which by the way, my great grandfather, Leroy Brooks,
he was in the right hemisphere all 天 long. He spent all 天 looking at a mule's butt.
和 he 从不 came home 和 said to my great grandmother, honey, I had a panic attack behind
a mule today. No. 和 he also 从不 said, 你 know, my life is so boring. 和 part of the reason was
因为 his 大脑 wasn't broken. His 大脑 was working the way it was actually supposed to.
但 那's not ordinary today. 和 so what 我们 need to do, number 一, is 我们 need to break the cycle
和 then 我们 need to live in an old-fashioned way. 那's what it comes down to. 那's how 我们 find
the meaning in 我们的 lives. 和 breaking the cycle, by the way, I mean, 我们 all know the 研究.
你've had it on 你的 show.
I've taken huge amounts of knowledge 从 你 on 这.
你 可以 break the cycle of technological addiction in 你的 life simply by doing 首先 小时 of the 天, last 小时 of the 天, 和 mealtimes.
Simply doing 那.
和 there's tons of 研究 那 shows 那 the neurocognitive programming 那 happens in 你的 首先 小时 awake,
the relationship programming 和 the sleep architecture 那 你're wiring in the last 小时 of 你的 天,
和 then the neuropeptides 那 你'll actually elicit by eating 与 other 人们 没有 devices.
你的 relationship to technology 会 change. 但 你've got to break the cycle. 和 there's tons of resources
out there. How do 你 live in a 不同的 way? Well, how do 人们 illuminate the right hemisphere
of their brains? They ask un-Google-able questions, right? Like, why am I alive?
对于 what 会 I give my life? 你 know, the deep philosophical questions. 和 那's what
philosophy 和 spirituality 和 religion bring to 你, is the deep questions 那 are fundamentally
ungoogleable. 和 那's 一 of the reasons 那 the hemispheric lateralization literature shows
那 when 你're in 这些 spaces, 那 你的 right hemisphere is fundamentally illuminated.
你 可以 train a gorilla to answer all kinds of questions, 但 not ask interesting fundamental
questions. 那's humanity. 那's God-like is to ask questions. It's to fall in love as a right
hemispheric experience. It's deep, deep mystery. It's like, 那's the reason it's so scary.
no, I 可以't solve 这 problem.
Somebody answer 这 question 对于 me.
No, man, 你 got to live it.
你 got to live it 对于 the end of 你的 天.
那's why finding 你的 calling,
why 你 和 I were,
我们 have so much meaning 对于 我们的 work
因为 我们're living 我们的 calling.
这 is what 我们're meant to do.
那's why a calling is what 你're meant to do.
It has the word meaning in it.
那's why worshiping God,
living in the luminescent divine,
§13Transcript — part 13
那's why trying to become a sannyasi,
as the Indians 会 say,
和 那's why beauty, moral beauty, artistic beauty, natural beauty, 这些 are right hemispheric experiences.
和 那's why suffering is so 重要.
因为 suffering helps 你 understand the meaning of 你的 life per se.
Suffering is where everybody's like, when did 你 know who 你 确实, 确实 were?
How did 你 know what 你 were made of?
They'll tell 你 something bad.
Oh, 那 周 at the beach in Ibiza.
No.
When my mom died, I loved her.
when somebody left me at the altar,
when I got fired,
when I lost my business,
God forbid, when I lost a child,
人们 look back 和 they say,
那 was the moment.
那 was when I knew.
Why?
因为 那's when 我们 were truly integrated.
那's when 我们 became integrated human beings.
那's what it means to be fully alive,
to find meaning.
和 ultimately, 那 is the path to happiness.
和 let 那 sink in 对于 人们.
那's the real wisdom.
和 I'm going to stop 你
因为 I know 你're super humble 和 你're going to pass it off onto someone else 或 something else, 但 你 确实
have a gift 和 it comes 通过. Thank 你, Andrew. 那 means a lot coming 从 你. Yeah,
你 确实 do 因为 it like a lot of 不同的 ways 人们 可以 say 重要 things, 但 sometimes
things just land 和 they just need to sit 对于 a sec. So I have some questions 那 were prompted
in 你的 book, 但 I want to make sure 那 我们 return to 这 notion of faith. It's not something
我们 talk a lot 关于 on 这 podcast. I've talked 关于 it as a guest on other podcasts, 但
但 你 和 I had a conversation 关于 那.
和 I think probably by the time 那 这 episode airs,
那 conversation at Stanford 会 also be public.
和 I recommend 人们 watch it
因为 那 was 确实 moving 对于 me
to have 那 conversation 与 你.
To talk 关于 你的 journey 和 the...
I mean, it's 确实 easy to get 进入
the physical fitness of life,
但 the metaphysical fitness of life
is a 不同的 experience.
the real like eye opener the 首先 一 对于 me was oh like striving 对于 perfection it 可能 be
perfection in quotes 可能 be the goal 但 like no 一 attains 那 no human attains 那 so
be careful to not ask humans 对于 answers 那 are not 可能 to come 从 human beings 和 那's
where 那 eventually moved to a real faith, a belief in God, a prayer practice 那 is,
at least 对于 me, it's the most consistent feature of my life 对于 the last almost 三 years. 和
it's been interesting to be in a relationship where 我们've like gone to church together 和 to pray
together 或 to just pray 与 somebody, right? 和 when 我们 parted ways at Stanford 之后 the
Veritas meeting, it was so interesting 因为 我们 said goodbye. 我们 did the usual like hug,
like see 你 soon brother look me up 和 你 said i'll pray 对于 你 和 你 said 和 if 你 don't
心智 pray 对于 me too 和 i've been doing 那 和 it's it's now some 人们 可能 hear 这 和 be
like oh boy here 我们 go here 我们 go a couple of scientists talking 关于 但 if 一 just like
entertains the possibility 那 maybe humans don't have all the answers yeah 那's like a great vista
to like skeptically look out yeah 那's kind of how i think they felt a lot like a couple of years
ago it's kind of like yeah 和 then 你 know over time i've migrated 非常 far forward 但 i think
那 the whole thing of being um like faith i realize isn't 这 thing 那 一 necessarily
尤其是 like me if 你 didn't grow up 与 a lot of it in 你的 family 你 know just like
run 和 fall like in like like new best friend i know it takes some it it doesn't have to happen
那 way 但 i think 人们 see 那. 和 if it does, it 可以 be 非常 brittle by the way 和 人们 see baptisms
和 they assume, okay, like 进入 the 水
和 你 just like embrace, right?
Born again.
Right.
Born again.
Right.
It's 这 like thick black line
那 你 step over type thing.
和 一 thing 那 I've learned 从 observing 你
和 从 conversations 与 你
is 那 like it's allowed to be gradual.
Yeah.
It's okay to be skeptical, to move forward,
to move back, to explore, to wonder,
因为 那's all the stuff of having a human 大脑.
和 God probably wants 那 对于 us.
Yeah.
和 so I've been 非常, 非常 moved by 你的 teachings at Veritas 那 天.
因为 对于 那些 那 haven't seen it yet 和 weren't there, it was 非常 clear 那 there was like a seasoned pro in there.
Arthur grew up 与 a lot of structured religion 和 prayer practice in his home.
和 I did not.
和 coming to 这 rather late.
So I was like the newbie.
和 it was so much, it was so liberating 对于 me to be on a stage where in a room full of 人们 where I was certain I was in the bottom 1% of knowledgeable 关于 the topic.
和 那 was what I could talk 关于 和 not knowing.
It was so beautiful, the humility 那 你 actually brought to 那 to say, I don't know.
I don't know, man.
I'm just fumbling 大约 here.
I'm just doing my best.
What I have written on my 心脏 is 那 there is something here 和 I want 更多.
和 这 is somebody who's.
那's it.
By the way, 这 is, according to the great sages, 这 is not proof of God, 但 it's 证据 of something.
证据 of the existence of 水 is thirst.
证据 of the existence of sex is sexual desire.
我们 want, 和 there are no anthropologically any 证据 of societies 那 are systematically secular.
On the contrary, all human societies 那 我们've been able to ascertain have a sense of the divine,
have a sense of the things 那 我们 actually cannot see.
desire 对于 it. Not every single person watching us 和 not everybody in the exact same way.
这 is something 那's characteristic of humanity. Otherwise, it 会 be absolutely
evolved out of us. 和 by the way, 那's 证据 那 the divine exists, is 那 我们 want the divine.
It's like the desire. It's like the thirst. It's 证据 of, an appetite is 证据 of the
existence of its object. 那's a classic philosophical argument. 和 again, 那's not
证据 那 God exists. 那's not proof 那 God exists 因为 你 可以't prove it. Faith is
belief in something 那 is fundamentally based on a non-testable hypothesis, which is super hard
对于 你 和 me 因为 testable hypotheses, 那's where the action is. 那's how 我们 got hired at
这些 fancy universities is testing testable hypotheses. 和 yet the essence of living on
the edge of the adventure of life as a scientist is to be in the realm of non-testable hypotheses
of things 那 你 deeply know in 你的 心脏 exist 那's hardcore 那's what i want 那's the 那's the bite out of life
那 i want to take 但 in keeping 与 这 analogy earlier 关于 anorexia 和 i'm not trying
to insult anyone here i'm also speaking 关于 well 你 know many many 人们 who i deeply respect who
会 say i don't have 那 craving i don't they don't have 那 那 wish they don't have 那
thirst right 和 i 可以 imagine there are probably 二 responses to 那 一 is 那 um something has
deftly slid in front of them to give them the illusion 那 they're getting 那 thing,
但 it's not 那 thing, right? 那 they've made other aspects of life their, I don't want to say
their God, 但 it sort of filled in 那 hunger 或 thirst. Maybe the terror of death, all 那
Ernest Becker stuff. Yeah. Yeah. 或 at the other extreme, it could be a sort of spiritual anorexia,
right? Like the 回路 have, like, let's give them some credit. Maybe the 回路 have actually
modified to the point where the reward is in not wanting to satisfy the craving. 因为 the 大脑
会 do 这 too. 这 is what's so weird 关于 这些 reinforce, I prefer the word reinforcement
to reward 因为 it involves, it's 更多 accurate 因为 it's 关于 closing a loop 与 desire 和
behavior, reset, desire, behavior. Yeah. 那's the wanting, learning, liking cycle. It's based
on reinforcement. Right. So the reinforce, like 多巴胺 和 reinforcement 总是 works. 多巴胺
reward. It's complicated. Like 你 可以 stimulate 多巴胺 通过 pain 和 no, 和 part of it is
the offset of pain. It's rewarding. It's just 一 of the reasons 那 heroin addicts like the feel
of the pinch of the needle going 进入 the vein, right? 那, 那, 那 part of 那 is, 但 the
pain is part of the reward per se, 因为 it's actually reinforcing the behavioral pattern.
Exactly 你的 point. If there was such a thing as a, a mild spiritual anorexia, where 人们 are
actually getting pleasure 从 the fact 那 they are not interested in any of 那.
Right.
和 they got enough 和 they feel good not knowing.
Right.
你 hear 这.
Sure.
和 I want to give, in fairness, I want to acknowledge 那些 人们 exist.
Right.
和 they're like good 与 the fact 那 they don't have a relationship,
like a higher power relationship of belief in God.
They don't have faith.
They don't seem to have 这 thirst.
和 the lack of it almost sounds in some cases like it's rewarding to them.
There's a pride 那 actually comes 从 being none, not an N-U-N, N-O-N-E.
It's a designation.
It's an identity, actually.
It's who I am as a person.
I don't actually need 那.
和 by the way, there are all 非常 compelling explanations 那 are not consistent 或 necessarily consistent 与 the idea 那 there's an all-knowing, all-loving God.
I mean, Stephen Cave at Cambridge has a 确实 beautiful book called Immortality.
Have 你 actually seen it?
Have 你 read it?
和 he's a philosopher.
和 he talks 关于 the fact 那 the human 大脑 is able to capture the concept of physical death.
你 know 你're going to die.
和 你're completely comfortable in 那 knowledge.
你 可能 not like it.
你 可能 not want it now.
但 你 know 你're going to die.
但 你的 大脑 is incapable of understanding non-existence.
So 你 know 你're going to die.
但 你 可以't understand non-existence.
因为 那 goes beyond 我们的 cognitive capacities.
和 so 你've got to resolve it.
一 way to deal 与 it is to not deal 与 it.
To 从不 think 关于 it.
Stay drunk 和 high, 或 stay busy 和 be a complete workaholic.
Stay busy.
Another way to deal 与 it is to create a resolution 那
says, I'm going to die, 但 I'm going to continue to exist.
和 so I 可以 understand 那.
和 那 会 be a social explanation
对于 the concept of religion.
Some neurobiologists back in the 天,
in the 1990s 和 early 2000s, were
doing work on the god module in the 大脑.
和 they were using 那些 magnetic helmets
那 they were doing on 这 thing.
和 what they 会 do is they 会 just
stimulate the same part of the 大脑 那's touched 与 人们 who have, 你 know, grand mal seizures. 和 so a lot of 人们 who
have epileptic seizures, events, 那 they'll have a mystical experience. 和, 你 know, if 你're,
对于 example, a Catholic nun 和 你 have an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary,
the 方案 从 the bishop is to check 你 对于 epilepsy 首先, 因为 it 可能 just be 那 你
had undiagnosed epilepsy 和 你 had a seizure 和 it made 你 have a mystical experience, right?
Okay, I get it.
和 这些 are ways to actually say 那 Andrew 和 Arthur are going off the reservation here.
They're not being good scientists.
There are plenty good philosophical 和 neuroscientific explanations 对于 the experience of God per se.
对于 me, 那 is uncompelling.
和 part of the reason 那 那's uncompelling 对于 me is 那 I've been walking across the earth 对于 the last 62 years,
和 I 可以't get it out of my 心智.
I'm not worried 关于 the problem of nonexistence.
It's not 那 it's been resolved, 但 这 is not a preoccupation of mine.
there are lots 和 lots 和 lots of times 那 I don't feel a single molecule of emotional faith.
On the contrary, 但 I have a strong sense of the existence of the creator, strong sense of the
divine. Do I understand him? No. I have a 非常 imperfect physics 从 full disclosure. I'm a
Catholic 和 I go to mass every 天. Why do I do 那? I do 那 not 因为 I feel it,
not even 因为 I believe, 但 因为 I'm serving 这 intuition 通过 practice.
和 by the way, 对于 everybody who's watching us who's like, I don't know, maybe, 但 I don't feel
it. So what? So what? 你 know, if I, if anybody who's married, they know 那 if 你 went according
§14Transcript — part 14
to 你的 feelings, 你 会 not stay married a month. 你 absolutely won't. 你 don't even go
according to 你的 belief in the institution of marriage. 你 go, 你 stay married 因为 你
practice marriage. 和 the same thing is true 与 你的 relationship 与 anybody, including 与
God. Start 与 practice. Occasionally 你'll believe, 和 非常 occasionally 你'll feel it.
那's the way the whole relationship actually works. Andrew, 那's the 方案.
I was happy to hear 那 the bishop has 方案.
They do. 但 the 方案 对于 individual faith is not feeling, belief, practice. It's practice,
belief feeling. 没有 any attempt to take away 从 the depth 和 impact of what 你 just
described, I sat across 这 非常 table 从 Pavel Tsatsouline, who's 一 of the most revered
力量 trainers in the world. 和 he said, as 你, occasionally he'd say my name, Andrew,
和 then he'd tell me something. 和 he said, 你 don't weight lift, 你 don't work out. He's like,
practice 力量 训练.
和 I was like, I don't know, I sort of get it.
Okay, yeah, 我们 可以 call it 一 thing 或 another.
He's like, no, no, every time 你 do it,
你're practicing to get better at it.
和 那 changes the whole motivational structure,
is what he 本质上 was saying.
和 那 changes 你的 expectation
of what 你're gonna get out of it.
Right.
It's, yes, 你 expect to get stronger,
但 it's 这 notion 那 你're 总是
the student of yourself.
你're 总是 the student of 这 process.
和 你 从不 确实 expect to conquer it,
因为 there's 总是 更多 weight 你 could add.
Now, 这 is a 非常 mechanical, physical analogy to what 你're describing.
但 there's an 重要, I think, elegance in what he said 和 what 你 said.
和 the similarity there, I think, is synergistic, which is when something is a practice, 我们 are not focused on the outcome as much as 我们 are the process.
那's fairly straightforward.
但 then there's 这 almost like higher order thing 那 comes 从 那 因为
it predicts 与 near certainty 那 你'll continue doing it whereas if 你're trying to
obtain the like grab the ring get the prize get the ribbon lift the weight 那 has a ceiling to it
和 so what 你're 确实 talking 关于 in the the real form of the word is ascension
like 通过 practice there's like ascension alt like otherwise like there's only there's the top
podium. There's in science, there's a Nobel prize, 你 know, like there are 这些 awards,
like, 你 know, 但 like, 那些 are things again, 那 are human. Like 我们 set 那些 水平, 但 the
laws of physics have an upper limit. Right. 但 what 你're talking 关于 doesn't have an
upper limit. Like, like 我们 可以't say 这 person experienced God 更多 than anybody else. 和 那's
the goal. Yeah. Like there's, there, there is no ceiling to 这, 这 relationship. The way 那
那 in Vedic wisdom,
the way 那 这 is understood,
they have a 非常, 非常 elegant way
of understanding 这.
和 by the way, the idea of practice,
no joke.
你 practice 你的 marriage.
你 practice in 你的 job.
你 practice friendship.
和 你 practice 你的 religion
对于 precisely the same reason
那 你 practice lifting weights
as opposed to just lifting weights.
你 practice it 因为 practice.
你 get better.
The progress principle,
我们've already talked 关于 那.
但 the way the Indians talk 关于 那
over the course of a life is 这. 和 it's based on 这 empirical regularity. 这 is a weird thing. 人们 tend to
get 更多 religious as they get older. 和, 你 know, James Fowler, the sociologist wrote 关于 这.
He says, 人们, 你 know, they wander away 和 they're in their twenties. 和 I'm like, yeah,
come on, man. I mean, an all knowing, all loving God. Well, explain kids getting sick 和 dying.
和 so they're like, no, explain suffering, right? Explain suffering. 和 你 和 I have
talked 关于 这 之前. 你 know, 我们 were at Stanford, 我们 talked 关于 the problem 与 pain
和 the problem of suffering.
但 when they're in their 40s,
what Fowler notices is 人们 get 更多 religious
对于 the following reason.
When 你're in the 40s, 那's when 你're like,
yeah, 你 know what?
Nothing makes sense.
Actually, nothing makes sense.
你've done enough 那 你 可以 say 那.
Yeah, 你 可以 actually,
I'm not going to resolve everything.
你 want a closed form solution to life
all the way 通过 你的 20s 和 30s.
你 think 那 there's a kind of a calculus to it.
和 你 realize 那 这些 are computational methods
to everything 那 你're doing,
which means, no, there's no closed form solution.
你 got to get a simulation going here.
I'm an old operations 研究 analyst.
So yeah, there's no closed form solution to anything 你 确实 care 关于, which is,
你 know, the result of it is everything's messy 和 你're much 更多 comfortable 与
the cognitive dissonance 或 the problem of pain.
和 the result of it is 那 你 actually look 对于 something 那 has 这些 transcendent
properties, notwithstanding the contradictions 那 你 actually see 大约 你.
The way 那 the Indians talk 关于 那 interest is as follows.
Life is in four quarters.
这 is called the theory of the ashramas, which is a Sanskrit word 对于 quarters of life.
和 the ideal life is 100 years long, 和 each 一 of 这些 is 25 years, 但 你的 结果 may vary.
The 首先 quarter is brahmacharya, which means the student phase.
Learn, learn, learn, learn.
The 秒 is grihastha, which is the householder phase.
Earn, build, earn, build, family, business.
那's up to 50.
那's up to 50.
Okay.
但 at 50, 你 have a 秒 adolescence 那 leads 你 进入 vana prastha, which is a word in Sanskrit 那 means it's 从
二 words, vana 和 prastha, meaning retiring 进入 the forest, retirement 和 forest. 和 it's a
metaphor. 你're back 进入 the forest, right? 和 what 你're doing is 你're actually gradually
moving away 从, not 从 doing 你的 job, 你 know, not 从 你的 relationships, 但 从 the
scoreboard, 从 the honors of the world. 和 what are 你 doing? 你're getting 进入 an elite
训练 对于 the last quarter, which is sannyasa, which 那 is the, to sit in the luminescence of the divine, of the
Godhead of Brahman in Hinduism is the whole idea. 但 那 requires super elite 训练. 你're not
going to get to 75 和, 和, 和 experience time 因为 time 对于 人们 who are 非常 religious 或
非常 spiritual, time is completely 不同的 than the success addict. It's like time's running out.
Got to do 更多, 更多, 更多, 更多 like hedonic treadmill 对于 人们 who are 非常, 非常 spiritual.
time becomes 更少 forward moving 和 更多 sort of lateral. It kind of spreads out like the delta of a river
where it slows down 和 你 可以't tell where the ocean begins 和 the river finishes.
那's 你的 life. 那's what it means to sit in the luminescence of God. 和 when death comes,
it's simply, it's a process. It's gradual. It's not binary at all, notwithstanding the fact 那
我们 可以 actually say where the electricity of the 大脑 stops. It is a deeply, deeply spiritual 和
comfortable thing. 但 那 requires the elite 训练 of vanaprastha. Not 之后 50 necessarily,
因为 most 人们 listening to us, if they're enlightened, it 可能 be they're 29 或 they're 36.
但 the elite 训练 of, 和 the elite 训练 is actually not, 你 know, memorizing the whole
Bible. It's asking the deep questions. Who am I? Who is God? Who created 这? What is love?
Am I loved?
可以 I love?
这些 are the deep metaphysical questions 那 actually lead us to the ultimate source of 那 love 和 the imperfect physics 那 is organized religion.
How are 你 as a 62-year-old exploring 这 third phase?
你 described 你 go to mass every 天.
Yeah.
Is 那 sometimes online 或 总是 in person?
总是 in person.
和 the great thing is the Catholic Church is like Starbucks.
it's like it's a 非常 uniform available product 与 high quality 和 uh 和 so 你 know i go 与
my wife at 6 30 in the 早晨 every when i'm home 和 i'm home usually four 天 a 周 i'm on the
road 48 周 a year 但 usually 关于 三 天 a 周 那 i'm out sometimes four 天 a 周 和
你 know i've got an app click next mass it's great 因为 it's literally the same product
every place in the world 450,000 times a 天.
I'm 非常 lucky in 这 way.
It's like finding a gym.
So 你're up at 4.30 in the 早晨
和 你're in the gym working out
对于 an 小时.
Six, seven 天 a 周?
Seven 天 a 周.
Seven 天 a 周.
Seven 天 a 周.
但 it's a four-天 cycle.
I'm obviously not doing the same thing, right?
I have unbelievable 压力 injuries.
Push-pull legs, yoga.
Push-pull legs, zone 二, 和 yoga.
Super impressive diligence.
和 then 你're in mass
和 then 你 move 关于 你的 天.
Yeah.
Do 你 have a prayer practice at the end of 你的 天?
I pray the rosary over the course of the 天.
Generally speaking, I pray the divine office 与 my wife,
which is an ancient monastic set of prayers
那 monks have been saying since St. Benedict in the 6th century.
和 那 punctuates the 天.
My wife 和 I, 我们 do it on FaceTime 或 on the phone,
no matter where I am, almost any place in the world,
as a matter of fact, 之前 the end of the 天.
Sometimes if I'm in India, which I try to go every year,
while I'm going to sleep, she's saying the divine office
at lunchtime. 但 我们 do 那 和 我们 do 那 together 因为 那's a deep, deep right 大脑
melding. 一 flesh 对于 a married couple 应该 be the union of the right hemispheres where 你 have
a deep intuitive understanding of life itself 那 你 可以't quite explain, 但 你 both understand.
那's the satisfaction of a marriage. So 这 right 大脑 connection, 你 know,
Dr. Allan Schore, right? He's been a guest on 这 podcast 和 I loved his book. 和 I mean,
确实 emphasized the importance of 这 right 大脑
connection between 尤其是 mother 和 child,
但 also father 和 child.
Husband 和 wife, close friends.
Yeah, 那 the joining, 你 know,
synchronizing the rise in like elation
和 then also the troughs, right?
和 then the calm piece of no need 对于 excitement.
Like 那 as 确实 the core,
he was mostly talking 关于 the psychology
和 神经生物学 of what real connection is 关于.
和 so beautiful to hear 你 talk 关于 那
in the context of a romantic relationship.
和 那's the nice thing 关于 那.
和 我们 talk 关于 faith, family, friends, 和 work,
对于 example, the apex of family 和 friendship
is the spousal relationship.
那's the apex, 因为 那's somebody
那 你've adopted as 你的 kin.
和 it's the 神经生物学 of falling in love
is so interesting, starting 与 attraction 和 sex 激素.
但 then when the catecholamines get involved
对于 intense desire 和 anticipation of reward
和 the ebullience 那 comes 从 the 去甲肾上腺素 释放
那 actually comes 和 wondering,
does 那 text 从 her?
It's 一 word.
Who cares?
和 then the serotonin drop,
the deep serotonin drop 那 actually happens
when 你 start to ruminate on the other person,
the sweet misery 那 comes 从 the rumination
on the other person,
§15Transcript — part 15
which is pretty much indistinguishable
neurobiologically 从 clinical depression.
right? It's like, there's no serotonin in the synapse. 和 then last 但 not least is the,
is the, 这些 neuropeptides like oxytocin, vasopressin, 但 尤其是, 你 know, 那,
那, 那 bond 你 together in companionate love, which is what 你 actually want. 你've adopted
那 person. 那's 你的 person. 那's 你的 kin. 那's 你的 best friend. 那's 你的 lover.
那's the person who actually shares the right hemisphere of the deep meaning of 你的 life. 和
你 know, 一 of the beautiful things 关于 romantic love is it helps me understand how
the philosophy 和 the theology 和 the neuroscience 和 the psychology, it's all 一 thing, man.
It's all 一 thing. It all comes together in 这 beautiful way. 那's why it's such a
powerful thing 那 你 和 I want in 我们的 lives, 你 和 I need in 我们的 lives.
Anyone 可以 确实 start to clearly understand how, while there are wonderful technologies 和
things available in the world, 那 so much of what 我们're offered 和 fed 和 paying 对于 与
我们的 time, 尤其是 我们的 time, are ways to short 回路 the building of 这些 things.
对于 sure.
Whether it's 与 a romantic partner 或 a vocation 或 与 我们的 friends 或-
Workaholism, alcoholism, pornography, all 这些 things they short 回路.
Pornography is sort of like, it literally short 回路 the 回路 那 is supposed
to be 这 magnificent, immensely complicated cocktail of things 那 你 会 call a 确实, truly amazing relationship.
和 it's just tapping 进入 一 thing.
I am sort of living in the land of analogies today, 但 not unlike when I had a guy on 这 podcast, Chris McCurdy, who 研究 plant-based medicines 但 not psychedelics.
和 he was talking 关于 how the problem in 这 country is 那 我们 learn to isolate 和 synthesize the most potent of the plant molecules 和 they become 非常 addictive.
So whether they're painkillers 或 they're cocaine 或 they're kratom.
Right.
但 那 in the whole plant form, 这些 things actually had balance.
Right.
There's a 确实, I think, an appropriate perhaps analogy there 那 like when 我们 try 和 get 一 slice of 这 in high potency 和 not have to risk anything to get it, 你 lose the whole thing.
When 你 shear something off 从 the whole experience, 那's when it actually becomes addictive.
那's when it becomes pathological.
Naturally speaking, a lot of 这些 processes, a lot of the things 那 我们 actually experience are supposed to be there.
Look, I mean, 我们're so good at taking, at solving a little problem 和 creating a major crisis.
你 know, like, man, 那's like, I got a headache.
I need something stronger.
I need something stronger.
I need something stronger.
100,000 人们 died of, 你 know, opiate overdoses 或 something last year.
这 is what actually happens.
和 then there are other things 那 我们 do as well.
和 by the way, 你 know, lest 我们 look like 我们're, 你 know, holier than thou, workaholism is a classic case of 这 as well.
It's just 那 那 particular addiction sheared off 从 the natural, 你 know, humane 和 even divine process of creating value on 这 earth.
When 我们 become workaholics, the result is 那 人们 congratulate us 对于 it.
你 know, 可以 你 imagine somebody who said, Andrew, 你 are unbelievably good at drinking vodka.
你 put away 二 750 milliliter bottles of 那 last 夜间 和 你 were completely blacked out.
但 I was amazed at how adroit 你 are.
你're a great drinker.
这 was the college I went to.
Yeah.
你 know, 和 I wasn't a big drinker there,
但 人们 会 try 和 impress each other
与 how much they could drink.
By the time 你're 我们的 age, 然而,
if 你're doing 那, 人们 are,
你 think 那 你're, 你 know, a pathetic drunk.
但 if 你're 我们的 age, my age,
和 if I'm 62 years old,
completely neglecting my family
和 doing only stuff to run up the scoreboard
on money 和 power 和 fame 或 whatever,
人们 are going to be like,
dude, 你're good at 你的 job.
你're awesome.
你 know, it's like, yeah,
你 know how many speeches I gave last year. 你 know how many frequent flyer miles I got? 人们 are going to
be like, it's 确实, 确实 impressive. 但 the whole point is 那 sheared off 从 the natural
human experience. It's an addictive behavior. It's dangerous. It's pathological. It's bad 对于 us.
和 it leads to misery. Yeah. I think what saved me was hearing the phrase, I don't know where I
heard it was, everyone loves a young drunk. 和 I was like, oh yeah, like 这, 这 rolled forward
does not look good. How old were 你 when 你 saw it? In college. 你 stopped 确实 early. No, I drank, 但 I noticed early on,
mostly 因为 I was doing a lot of catch up
与 my academics 和 then got 进入 physical fitness.
和 I drank basically until my early 40s,
但 更少 和 更少 和 更少 和 更少.
Oh, 你 did, okay.
Yeah, 和 then finally was just like,
no 更多, I'm done, I'm done.
和 I drank 更多 和 更多 和 更多 和 更多
of 这 stuff until my late 30s.
It was 非常 socially unacceptable 和 isolating
to not drink.
人们 会 be like, academics 会 be like,
你're boring, 但 I'd kick their butt
the next 天 at the meeting
when they're all kind of like worked.
和 then I'd see them.
和 I'm not 一 of 这些 人们
oh aesthetics 和 肌肉 和 leanness are all it 但 i'd see 人们 get tenure 和 i was like 你
look like shit 你 look like 你 age 25 years 和 你的 kids are miserable 和 all i hear are
complaints 关于 这 和 i'm like 你're not taking care of yourself so i don't want to be
like 那 yeah so i figured i'm not the smartest 但 i 可以 work hard right um 和 if i get 更多
years then eventually i 可以 catch up 或 get ahead 但 it wasn't 确实 competitive 对于 me i also just
didn't like how it felt. I lucked out. 但 in any case, 与 the workaholism, as 你're describing
it, 那 is a 非常 dangerous 一. Yeah. 那's usually a secondary affliction
based on success addiction, the addiction to success, which comes down to 那 reward,
那 reinforcement, 那 reinforcement. 你 get 那 little reward, the reinforcement of 你的
goodness, the understanding of yourself. 和 so success addiction leads to workaholism.
Success addiction, once again, is 确实 downstream 从 earning love, 从 the belief
那 I 可以 be enough if I do enough.
The human doing phenomenon, is 那 actually what 我们 see.
The beautiful thing 关于 这 is 那, 你 know,
I talk 关于 the behavioral science principles.
我们've touched on the philosophy.
我们've talked 关于 the theology.
你've talked so much 关于 the mechanisms on 这 show
和 in 你的 writing 和 in 你的 scholarship
关于 the 神经生物学 behind it.
和 我们're all wonderfully made.
这 all ties up in the same area.
There's no, it's not like 一 thing leads in 一 direction
和 something else leads in another.
there are many paths to 这些 truths.
The real pity is when 我们're not looking 对于 the truth.
The real pity is when 我们're distracting ourselves
从 what it actually means to be the 人们
那 我们 want to be,
which leads us to the 非常 beginning of 这 conversation.
What if 你 were the person 那 你 wanted to be?
和 the fact 那 我们 可以 actually do so
by looking at 这 space of moral aspiration,
I think 那's a miracle.
I think 那's an incredible miracle.
之前 我们 wrap, I have 二 things.
首先, a question.
和 then a consideration.
So I suppose both are questions 因为 the consideration is 对于 你.
The 首先 question is 对于 somebody listening to 这 conversation today.
I mean, earlier 我们 were talking 关于 exploring 一's choices 关于 和 relationship to leisure.
和 你 touched on a number of other 重要 points 那 人们 可以 return to 因为 我们 timestamped 这些, of course.
但 if there's a question 或 a small set of questions 那 anyone at any age 可以 ask themselves 那 可以 help them redirect 或 just better orient in space 和 time 和 choice making, what are 那些?
I mean, do 那些 sorts of questions exist?
Is there a self-assessment 那 actually does 那?
No, well, just, 你 know, like if 我们 were going to, if 我们 shared 这 time on an airplane, I'm like, hey, thanks.
和 我们 didn't have cell phones.
I'm like, anything else I 应该 think 关于 之前 我们 part ways?
Like, 你 got any suggestions?
Yeah.
recommend, whatever. So much of what 你've said today is fodder 对于 更多 questions.
Yeah.
Which means 你've done, which is-
我们的 work is so awesome.
Yeah.
我们的 work is like a self-licking ice cream cone.
Nah, nah. Oh man, I haven't heard 那 analogy in a long time. 那's how 我们 used to describe
some grants 那 我们 were 关于 to deny. So let's not do 那. So asking 关于 how 一 spends leisure,
understanding 这 relationship between pleasure 和 moral aspiration 和 seeking to fuse 那些,
wonderfully great thing to do. Who wouldn't want to do 更多 of 那? Are there any other sort of
probe questions 那 我们 可能 ask ourselves like once a 天 或 once a 周, 你 know, while 我们're
leaving the gym 或 mass 或 whatever? Yeah. Yeah. 和 there are certain things 那, 你 know,
inventories 那 I actually try to take, 你 know, to make sure 那 my hygiene is appropriate,
right? Holding yourself to high account is unbelievably 重要. Holding yourself to
much higher account than anybody else 会 hold 你. 那's 一 of the reasons 那 the
happiest 人们 are the 人们 who have a strong sense of propriety 那 they practice when no 一 sees them.
你 know, 那's the essence of being honest 与 yourself. 你 know, it's 一 thing 那 你 和 I
know so many famous 人们 和 通常 they have a public persona 和 a private persona just 因为
你 have to separate 那些 particular things. 但 the happiest of famous 人们, which is hard
因为 fame is the only 一 of the worldly rewards 你 可以 only ever be happy in spite of,
从不 因为 of right 和 yet 人们 want it. 那's the better answer to what i i was asked earlier 关于 like yes opens
opportunities limits freedoms 但 你 nailed it yeah 那些 人们 the 人们 who are happy in
spite of being famous are the same 人们 when 你're alone at dinner 与 them as they are in
front of 10 000 人们 in an arena they are 和 i know 人们 like 那 i know 人们 like oprah
winfrey is like 那 oprah winfrey is the same person at the dinner table as she is in a screaming
arena full of 人们. 和 she's a well-integrated person 和 she's happy in spite of the fact 那
she's 一 of the probably five most famous 人们 in the world. 你 know, it's extraordinary. I mean,
I just co-authored a book 与 her, which was incredible learning experience 关于 my own field
by observing her life, right? 但 there aren't 非常 many 人们 like 那. So the way to do 那
is to subject yourself to, 你 know, the queries 那 你 会 use on somebody else. 你 know,
What are the probing questions?
和 方案 那 我们 have, it's usually based on asking 人们 a set of questions.
I could walk 通过, what's my idol?
Am I serving my idols?
There are a bunch of things like 那.
但 fundamentally, 对于 example, 我们 all 可以 fall 进入 suffering 关于 sort of the sense of emptiness,
the ennui 那 comes 从 the modern world.
我们 all feel depressed 从 time to time.
There is a set of questions.
Why questions?
那 interrogates whether 或 not 我们 actually are in touch
与 the most 重要 macronutrient of 我们的 own happiness,
which is the meaning of 我们的 lives.
Here are the 三 questions, the 三 big whys
那 I ask myself continuously, 那 I probe,
和 I have to answer honestly,
因为 being honest 与 myself is the essence
of getting 进入 the moral space.
Number 一, why do I think things actually happen
the way 那 they do?
和 am I acting in accordance 与 那?
和 对于 a religious person like me, if I say I think things happen the way they do 因为 of
the 会 of God, 但 I'm not acting 那 way, 那's going to be a source of misery. Am I acting
like I believe 那 the 会 of God exists 和 is true? 或 am I acting like everything has to do
与 me, which means I'm freaking out 关于 everything. I'm super stressed out 关于,
你 know, what's going to happen tomorrow 那's completely out of my control. I'm anxious all the
time. I'm worrying continuously. Worry is 证据 of a lack of faith. 和 so 因此, if I say I'm committing
to my faith, it immediately extinguishes worry, right? 你 shouldn't feel guilty 关于 it. 你
应该 act according to the person 那 你 are. Number 一, 那's the coherence question
对于 philosophers. Why do things happen the way they do? Am I acting 那 way? 秒,
why am I doing what I'm doing? 那's the purpose question. 你 know, 那's the purpose in life.
Purpose 和 meaning are not the same thing. Purpose is a subcategory of meaning.
Why am I doing the things 那 I am actually doing?
和 then the next question beyond 那 is, is 那 in accord 与 my beliefs?
Am I doing the things 那 I'm doing in accord 与 my beliefs?
§16Transcript — part 16
但 why am I doing them?
和 by the way, 对于 你 和 me, it 可能 be 因为 I'm chasing my idol.
因为 I want 更多 control.
因为 I want 更多 adoration of strangers.
因为 I want 更多 money.
因为 I want to feel good.
Is 那 in accord 与 my beliefs?
和 then the last part is, why does my life matter?
确实 to whom? Am I acting according to the 人们 to whom my life actually matters? Am I
acting 那 way? Am I marginalizing? 和 by the way, Andrew, I've screwed 这 up so many times.
When I was a CEO running 这 big nonprofit organization, which was so 重要, right?
I was at 一 point at the 非常 end of it, I was interviewing a bunch of 非常 famous 和 rich
financial professionals 对于 a book 那 I was starting to write 那 came out 之后 I left.
和 when I was already back in academia,
called 从 力量 to 力量.
It was a book 关于 getting happier as 你 get older.
和 这 woman is like a billionaire.
I mean, unbelievable.
Named firm, famous.
和 she's telling me 关于 her achievements.
I'm like, congratulations, 那's great.
She says, I'm so unhappy.
I said, well, talk to me, sister.
What gives?
She said, my husband 和 I were married,
但 我们're roommates, 你 know.
I have adult kids 与 a cordial relationship.
I think my employees are, they do what I say, 但 I think they're afraid of me.
I don't think my decision making is crisp anymore.
I don't love it, 但 I don't know what else to do.
She said, I go to the doctor 和 the doctor says, 你 need to stop drinking 和 get 进入 the gym.
但 I keep drinking 和 I don't go to the gym.
She said, when I grew up, I went to church when I was a little girl 和 I loved 那.
I 总是 wanted 那.
和 I don't go to church 和 I don't know why.
和 she says, professor, what am I supposed to do?
I said, 你 don't need a Harvard professor.
你 just wrote 你的 own prescription.
take a souvenir in 你的 company 和 step back, go away 与 你的 husband 和 get to know him,
go move closer to 你的 kids, get 进入 AA, go to the gym, go back to church. Look,
it's right there. She says, I know, I know, I know. I said, so why not? Why didn't 你 do 那?
Why don't 你? 和 she, 和 she was silent 对于 a long time. 和 finally she said,
因为 I've 总是 chosen to be special rather than happy. 和 那 was like a knife to my 心脏
因为 at 那 point in my life, me too.
你 know how many Little League games I didn't go to?
Look, Little League games are boring.
Let's be honest.
但 it's my kids.
你 know how many birthdays 那 I missed
因为 I was trying to be special 和 successful
和 adored by 人们 who don't care 关于 me?
和 那 specialness, 那's an animal impulse
那 is hardwired 进入 us.
The moral aspiration is to choose happiness
over 那 particular specialness. 和 那's the, 那's the significance question. Why does my life matter?
和 to whom? 和 am I acting in accord 和 responsibly 与 my answer to 那 question?
那's the interrogation. 你 do not disappoint Professor Arthur Brooks.
It's awesome. 那些 are great, great questions 那 I 会 be asking over 和 over 和 那
那 everyone 应该 consider asking
和 trying to answer over 和 over 对于 themselves.
So I'm 确实 moved.
Thank 你.
Me too.
你 know, I've been doing 这 podcasting thing a while now,
和 every once in a while, someone sits down here
和 takes us someplace else.
I knew 你 were 那 guy
因为 我们 had shared the conversation 之前,
但 你've given me so much to think 关于.
I'm gonna be listening to 这 和 taking notes
对于 my own reasons.
No, thank 你.
What an honor it is.
你've blessed me again 和 again 和 again 和 again
与 the scientific knowledge 那 你 bring to it,
但 the soul 你 actually bring to the science.
那's the magic formula
那 你 actually bring to all 你的 work.
Well, thank 你.
I have a couple of 人们 in my life who are 关于,
I've 总是 had a couple of 人们 in my life
who are 关于 10 years older.
I 确实 look up to 你.
I look up to 你.
I 确实 do.
I admire 你.
和 it's a short list, 但 it's a potent 一.
I won't tell 你 who else is on camera,
who else is on there,
an all-star team. I aspire to be 更多 like 你. 和 I say 那 与 all the respect 那 你're
a human 和 你 have 你的 struggles. 但 I think it's 重要 对于 anyone at a given developmental
stage to look at 人们 who've migrated the path 更多 或 更少 那 they're on 但 are ahead of them
和 get some useful information. So I appreciate 那. So whether 你 like it 或 not, 你're a
mentor to me. Thank 你, Andrew. Thank 你. 那 means the world to me 和 我们're all on the path.
我们're all on the path.
我们 all have 我们的...
Life is, 你 know, every religious tradition has pilgrimages.
Almost every religious tradition.
If 你 go across India, 你 see mendicants 那 are actually walking toward a holy city.
In the Christian faith, 我们 have 三 big pilgrimages to Jerusalem, to Rome, 和 to Santiago de Compostela, which is the Camino de Santiago.
和 这些 pilgrimages are metaphorical 对于 what 我们're actually trying to do 与 我们的 lives, which is why they're such deeply mystical 和 spiritual experiences.
I recommend 那 everybody go on a 500-mile walk across northern Spain 从 the French border to Santiago de Compostela.
你 didn't do it on 你的 knees, did 你?
I did not do it on my knees, 但 I've done it just the last eight 天 二 times 因为
my wife won't do 更多 than eight 天, 和 I love my wife.
但 the point is 你 have 那 what 你 realize is 那 那's a metaphor 对于 你的 life.
我们're walking 通过 这 life.
我们're all learning.
Andrew's on a pilgrimage.
Arthur is on a pilgrimage.
Every single person watching us is on a pilgrimage, 和 那 means progress, 但 那 actually
means the excellence 那 actually comes 从 making progress in little ways every single 天
和 being open to metaphysical truths. So it moves me a lot 那 I could be some little stone church
on the side of the road on 你的 pilgrimage. Well, 你 absolutely are. 和 in sharing 这
与 other 人们, 你 are to them too. So I did say I had 一 更多 question slash consideration.
So I'm so inspired 和 struck by what 你 shared 那 I think it 会 be worth considering perhaps, 和 don't feel obligated to answer here.
Maybe 我们 just leave it a cliffhanger 和 not answer on here, 或 if 你 want, 你 可以.
人们 会 确实 benefit 从 hearing 从 你 更多 in the context of structured sets of questions.
I know 你 do 这 on 你的 podcast.
我们've touched on some of 那 today.
你 have 你的 books 和 so forth.
但 it'd be fun to explore the possibility of doing like a self-exploration series 与 你 at some point.
和 我们 could figure out the venue if it's on here 或 it's elsewhere.
但 if 你'd be willing to consider like ways 我们 could explore things 更多 fully, also selfishly so I 可以 learn 更多 从 你.
Likewise.
My answer is yes.
Awesome.
Let's do it, man.
All right.
Let's do it.
Let's get a band together.
Fantastic.
Yeah.
I love it.
God bless 你.
God bless 你 too, Andrew.
和 对于 all the 人们 who are watching,
I'm honored to be part of 这.
Thank 你 对于 joining me 对于 today's discussion
与 Dr. Arthur Brooks.
To learn 更多 关于 his work
和 to find links to his many excellent books,
please see the show note caption.
If 你're learning 从 和 或 enjoying 这 podcast,
please subscribe to 我们的 YouTube channel.
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Please also check out the sponsors mentioned
at the beginning 和 throughout today's episode.
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If 你 have questions 对于 me 或 comments 关于 the podcast
或 guests 或 topics 那 你'd like me to consider
对于 the Huberman Lab 播客,
please put 那些 in the comment section on YouTube.
I do read all the comments.
对于 那些 of 你 那 haven't heard,
I have a new book coming out.
It's my 非常 首先 book.
It's entitled 方案,
an Operating Manual 对于 the Human 身体.
这 is a book 那 I've been working on
对于 更多 than five years.
和 那's based on 更多 than 30 years
experience. 和 it covers 方案 对于 everything 从 sleep to 运动, to 压力 control,
方案 related to 专注 和 motivation. 和 of course, I provide the scientific substantiation
对于 the 方案 那 are included. The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
There 你 可以 find links to various vendors. 你 可以 pick the 一 那 你 like best. Again,
the book is called 方案, an Operating Manual 对于 the Human 身体. 和 if 你're not already
following me on social media,
I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
So 那's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, 和 LinkedIn.
和 on all 那些 platforms,
I discuss science 和 science-related tools,
some of which overlaps 与 the content
of the Huberman Lab 播客,
但 much of which is distinct 从 the information
on the Huberman Lab 播客.
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
和 if 你 haven't already subscribed
to 我们的 Neural Network newsletter,
the Neural Network newsletter
is a zero-cost monthly newsletter
那 includes podcast summaries,
方案 in the form of 一 to 三 page PDFs 那 cover everything 从 how to optimize 你的
sleep, how to optimize 多巴胺, 主动冷暴露. 我们 have a foundational fitness 方案
那 covers cardiovascular 训练 和 resistance 训练. All of 那 is available completely
zero cost. 你 simply go to HubermanLab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner,
scroll down to newsletter 和 enter 你的 email. 和 I 应该 emphasize 那 我们 do not share 你的
email 与 anybody. Thank 你 once again 对于 joining me 对于 today's discussion 与 Dr. Arthur
Certainly not least, thank 你 对于 你的 interest in science.